Bet you didn't see THIS coming....

[Captain Mostly]

I think that it is important to let your parents know you're gay. I used to think that my sexuality was "none of their business" but that was just making excuses because  I knew REALLY that telling them was the only respectful thing to do. Also, I feel it's important that people make the most of their parents who, if we like them or not, won't be around forever. I've never met anyone yet who has lost a parent and HONESTLY didn't care, and that INCLUDES teenagers who've lost their mothers during their "I hate my mum" period of their lives.

Even if they have a hard time coming to terms with it, your parents love you and deserve to have a role in your life and be told. One thing is for certain, they CAN'T be supportive if they don't know there's anything to support you over, even if "supportivness" isn't the first town they visit on the emotional highway out of "Shocked, angry and confused" city.

[DGMacphee]

Well, I suppose according to the bible I already AM damned, so I guess I'm free to give up anytime soon...

Don't say that.

There's a quote I remember from the film Sling Blade. The film's protagonist, Karl, says: "The Bible says two men ought not lay together. But I don't reckon the Good Lord would send anybody like you to Hades."

[Wormsie]

Well, I suppose according to the bible I already AM damned, so I guess I'm free to give up anytime soon...

The bible issue in't that simple. The New Testament says NOTHING about gays, and that's the book Christians should believe in. Also, if you take the bible literally, eating shrimp is an abomination. It's in the same list as homosexuality. Eating shrimp is no longer considered an abomination, but homosexuality still is - see the hypocrisy? Besides, the writers of the Bible considered slavery, genocide, mass murder, and the oppression of women acceptable.

This page has more info: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm A quote:

The New International Version (NIV) currently translates Leviticus 18:22 as:

    "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

The New Living Translation (NLT) widens the translation to also include lesbians:

    "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

Imagine what would happen if the translators decided to be accurate to the original Hebrew and render this verse as:

    "Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean."

[Babar]

Your absolutely right deadworm! Eating shrimp is disgusting. And it doesn't taste good. And it is an abomination!
God Hates Shrimp

[Blackthorne]

Imagine what would happen if the translators decided to be accurate to the original Hebrew and render this verse as:

Ã,  Ã,  "Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean."

Heh.  I spit my coke out my nostrils on that one.  Guess I'd better tell my gay friends to quit havin' sex on their sisters beds and such.

Bt

[Peter Thomas]

Heh. There's a SLIGHT difference between shrimp and homosexuality according to the bible. The New Testament rendered eating shrimp CLEAN. It said nothing about us gay people, and therefore we are STILL to rely on the word of the old testament (which is pretty clear). Yes, we are to believe the N.T, but that doesn't mean we are to ignore the OLD testament.

Although I really do appreciate your support. It's kind of a mind-battle for me. I spent so long trying to 'talk myself out' of being gay that I learnt basically every argument against gays on the way, and as much as I hate it, I can refute nearly everything people say in support. Yeah, sure it goes against the whole point of it, since it's being said in SUPPORT of me and I'm shooting it down... but... um... I think there was some sort of point to this. I hope you can see where I was going, cause I sort of confused myself.

ANYWAY. Mostly, you're right - I would hate for my parents to die and not know the 'real' me. But they already know I'm gay. Not because I've dropped them a million hints, and not because I wear pink shirts with flared jeans and have vanilla-scented cologne, and not because the people I go clubbing with are in tight mid-riffs and singing Cher. They know because they're mum and dad and they have this stupid thing called intuition. They know, but they don't want to accept it, and they won't let me tell them. And as much as they will love me regardless of it, there is such a thing as good and bad timing.

And this, I am afriad, is BAD timing...

Oh, and I agree COMPLETELY that you shouldn't be having sex on your sisters bed. Or your aunts, or whoever. Just borrow the pillows or something...

[Gregjazz]

Heh. There's a SLIGHT difference between shrimp and homosexuality according to the bible. The New Testament rendered eating shrimp CLEAN. It said nothing about us gay people, and therefore we are STILL to rely on the word of the old testament (which is pretty clear). Yes, we are to believe the N.T, but that doesn't mean we are to ignore the OLD testament.

WARNING: VERY OPINIONATED POST BELOW

Well if you think about it, the laws (in Leviticus, for example) were given to the Israelites after they made up their mind they wanted a king. I think originally it was intended that God would be their "king." So a lot of those laws are directed towards the Israelites back then -- not to say there isn't a lot of wisdom found in those laws, but I don't believe I will go to hell because I'm uncircumcised. Again, I still thing those laws should not be overlooked.

In the New Testament, though, I notice the Apostle Paul has some things to say about homosexuality. A lot of people argue about interpretations and things like that, but if you read what he has to say, you'll see that it's very clear, and I can't see how there would be any confusion.

So I'm not trying to "convince" anyone or change anyone's opinions when I write this; I'm just interested in hearing your thoughts.

Question, Peter Thomas, so have you prayed to God about any of this?

[Blackthorne]

In the New Testament, though, I notice the Apostle Paul has some things to say about homosexuality. A lot of people argue about interpretations and things like that, but if you read what he has to say, you'll see that it's very clear, and I can't see how there would be any confusion.

READ: TRANSLATIONS.

EXAMPLE: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.

Thank you.

Bt

[Peter Thomas]

Geoff: Yes, as ironic as it sounds, I've prayed very fervently about it. For about the last 3 or so years actually, every single day, probably twice or more a day. I prayed that God would take away this 'sin' from me, and well, quite frankly, after that long, I grew kind of sick of it.

If I could endure something so heinous to christianity for 3 years without succumbing to it, and God STILL does not get rid of it, then something's wrong. Okay, okay, I'm not trying to bag out Christianity here, or any religion or anything. I'm just kind of bitter for those 3 years that were, ultimately, in vain.

[Wormsie]

Geoff: Yes, as ironic as it sounds, I've prayed very fervently about it. For about the last 3 or so years actually, every single day, probably twice or more a day. I prayed that God would take away this 'sin' from me, and well, quite frankly, after that long, I grew kind of sick of it.

If I could endure something so heinous to christianity for 3 years without succumbing to it, and God STILL does not get rid of it, then something's wrong. Okay, okay, I'm not trying to bag out Christianity here, or any religion or anything. I'm just kind of bitter for those 3 years that were, ultimately, in vain.

I used to do that, too, but only when I was much, MUCH younger - around... ten. Eventually I realised that I had the wrong idea of God and religion altogether... And then I read philosophy, and decided to become an atheist. I felt that I was finally free to think for myself.

However:

"The Christian Scriptures, in their original Greek do not contain any clear references to consensual homosexuality within a committed relationship, and certainly do not contain any unambiguous condemnation of gay and lesbian sexual activity. However, after having been filtered through the belief systems of the translators, many English versions of the Bible clearly condemn homosexual behavior. Now that the famous "anti-homosexual" passages of 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:18 have been so long identified as being critical of homosexual activity, it would be impossible for Bible translators to offer alternative explanations; their Bible wouldn't sell." - see here

But that's just the liberal view. Of course, you might find the words of my good friend Kingzjester comforting: "I don't get what the big deal is with homosexuality. It is just like heterosexuality, only with more gay sex. Then again, if you choose to believe it, Lev. 20:13 did say, 'If a man lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.' So, ok. Abomination and death for fags. It is still not that bad. Snowmen have lived with abomination for ages already, and as far as death goes, mortality has been running at 100% for an eternity, so it is not such a shitty hand of cards when you look at it, thou abominable Finnish queer."

[Wormsie]

Although I really do appreciate your support. It's kind of a mind-battle for me. I spent so long trying to 'talk myself out' of being gay that I learnt basically every argument against gays on the way, and as much as I hate it, I can refute nearly everything people say in support.

Eventually, I think, you just have to choose what you think is best for you. That's what everybody does, ultimately. Every right-wing Christian does that, too. That's the pain of existentialist angst - we don't have clear answers, only more and more questions. We just have to decide for ourselves. Now that I think about it, I quite love that freedom.

And as much as they will love me regardless of it, there is such a thing as good and bad timing.

For me, there is no good time for that - I'm just too freaked out. I usually tend to exploit a side route in a conversation and just ride the adrenaline rush...

Fun fact of the day: No gay person I know is feminine. Not surprising, since I'm in a university of technology...

Oh, I forgot. One of them is a lesbian, and she IS feminine.

[DGMacphee]

I think the New Testament does render homosexuality acceptable. Here you have Jesus and twelve other guys...

... hanging out together...

... in gardens ...

... alone ...

...

...

!

[SSH]

Geoff: Yes, as ironic as it sounds, I've prayed very fervently about it. For about the last 3 or so years actually, every single day, probably twice or more a day. I prayed that God would take away this 'sin' from me, and well, quite frankly, after that long, I grew kind of sick of it.

Leaving aside whether homosexuality, or homosexual practice or whatever is a sin (and you've heard my calls for tolerance on this before) I've never heard of any kind of Christianity where you sinning is God's fault for not taking the sin away from you. When I was a teenager I used to pray that God would stop me from wanking. Eventually, I realised that if wanking IS a sin, then it's my reponsibility to stop doing it. Personally, I think the biggest "sin" of pornography is the way it exploits men and women and the attitudes it engenders in those using it of  the people withitn as sex objects. The biggest sin about homosexuality is the attitude it engenders in those who get very angry about the whole issue and start spitting hate, from both sides (although mainly the Christian).  The fault is not that of the "homosexuality" or the "pornography" but of selfish,  insecure people.

Incidentally, I notice how when politicians talk about censorship of movies they always bundle sex and violence in together. Personally, I've never wanted to commit violence after seeing a violent moive, on the other hand, after seeing a sexy movie... 

[DGMacphee]

I think the great sage Bill Hicks once said that it was ironic that that the people who against pornography and things that cause sexual thought are fundamentalist Christians who believe you should be fruitful and multiply.

[Gregjazz]

In the New Testament, though, I notice the Apostle Paul has some things to say about homosexuality. A lot of people argue about interpretations and things like that, but if you read what he has to say, you'll see that it's very clear, and I can't see how there would be any confusion.

READ: TRANSLATIONS.

EXAMPLE: ALL YOUR BASE ARE BELONG TO US.

Thank you.

Bt

Ah, well then what you do is read as many various translations of the Bible as possible and then look at the common meaning.

Geoff: Yes, as ironic as it sounds, I've prayed very fervently about it. For about the last 3 or so years actually, every single day, probably twice or more a day. I prayed that God would take away this 'sin' from me, and well, quite frankly, after that long, I grew kind of sick of it.

I really don't know what to say. So I won't say anything. Well, I think I should get out of this discussion, thank you for answering my questions.

[Peter Thomas]

SSH: Yeah, that probably sounded a bit like I was blaming God. Which I'm not. As I said, I was just a teeny little bit pissed off. More than anything it's the addage that "God will not test you with anything that you cannot handle". And I had to handle this bloody thing for years, and instead of getting easier day by day, it got harder. That STILL probably sounds like I'm blaming God, so I guess in some obscure way I probably am, but I'm not gonna walk around saying "God dumps crap on people and never takes it off". I realise it is a persons own responsibility to help themselves, but I absolutely poured myself into the bible, into its teachings, into church, into theological studies to give me strength. And to no avail, it would seem. I don't know how much more I could've helped myself, to be honest.

Geoff: Maybe I just read your post wrong, but it seemed like you were backing off because you thought I was getting pissed off with you? Not the case, but either way, if you've got nothing to add...well, that hasn't stopped anybode ELSE so far...

[Meowster]

Hey, you're allowed blame god for stuff. Last I heard, it's only the Pope that's infallible.

Besides, if god is at risk of being proven wrong, perhaps whacky hijinks will ensue, like in that delightful movie Dogma! You gotta admit, that was a great movie, and Ben Affleck was totally hot in it (for once). So get with the blaming god, because I like that movie.

[Peter Thomas]

Yuf, some things make NO sense, and then YOU come along and just explain it oh-so-perfectly...

You get 3 points!

[theyak]

Leaving aside whether homosexuality, or homosexual practice or whatever is a sin (and you've heard my calls for tolerance on this before) I've never heard of any kind of Christianity where you sinning is God's fault for not taking the sin away from you. When I was a teenager I used to pray that God would stop me from wanking.

Interesting note as well.  Other than Onan, I'm unaware of an instance in the bible of God disapproving of this.  Of course, Onan's punishment was death for distributing his seed without it being within a vagina.  Then again, it was after intercourse and he was alone.  God's laws seem to have changed based upon the need of the present society.  It would make sense that masturbation and homosexuality would be against the best interests of Judaism and Christianity as both needed offspring for some time.  However, in the present day, there are many Christians and there's not the same need to procreate in order to create more.   
---
For me, personally, I don't believe that either the solo act or consensual same-sex acts are a sin but I do believe that according to the Christian faith both are.  If someone's got an anti-masturbation verse, I wouldn't mind being educated but I think the main points in the Bible against it are because of how you, ah..  arrive at your conclusion. ~ If you commit adultery in your heart, or if a man looketh upon a woman lustfully, etc. ~ If you help yourself out and think about waffles, I wouldn't think it would count.

My sympathy, Peter, for being involved in the conundrum of homosexuality with this particular faith.  It would seem that you've either got to find the middle-ground (if there is one) or commit to one or the other (easier said than done, I'm sure).   

[Peter Thomas]

Oh, believe me, if there was a middle ground, then I'd be there with my white picket fence already.
So I'm commiting myself to the 'gay/evil side'. I suppose...