Bone: Out From Boneville

[Helm]

Evolution has lead to us finding these tools, so it is always present.

Yes.

Keeping this relatively on topic however seems like a lost cause.

Why? We two at least seem to be understanding our points of view and noticing where they converge. That's all we can ask from such a discussion, really. Don't expect us to uncover the secrets of the universe here.

About animals having sex although it hurts:
For example, I think of kids who eat so much candy they throw up or get sick. It might be partly a lack of experience and the sudden sensation of sickness comes so soon that it overwhelmes them. Many animals have a short memory (goldfish as an extreme), and I guess dogs are mostly driven by their instincts like you say. They can be conditioned (pavlov) to not do things, maybe there is a lack of experience/conditioning also, before instincts can be fought.

It is interesting to submit, as I understand you're doing, that sex is pleasurable because human beings have longer-lasting memory and therefore might need more incentive than the pure atavistic drive to mate (namely that if feels good). Theoretically, a long-memory human that has had sex, although he really was pumped up for it, if it hurt like hell he might not come back for more no matter how pumped up he gets again, whereas a dog might simply forget... Two problems: Not sure if it's you know, even needed because there's the negative drive in that when you do not mate your biochemistry battles you and you're constantly in variable states of depression and loneliness. Second: memory in even short-memory animals isn't like it is on humans. There's genetic memory that's very long-lasting. If you hit a dog today, it will remember and avoid you for probably many months. But the same dog will forget you in a second if you make no impression it. So sex hurting like hell, it'll probably remember, and still it goes back. The big difference here is self-examination and self-awareness, which the dog is not capable of, and we are. As such, we might paint the memory-stemmed picture in very drastic and stark terms and therefore arrive at some standstill where we will not allow ourselves to have sex again. Humans are great at rationalizing from little information to HUGE, LIVE-DEFINING DECISIONS and so I guess extra care is naturalistically taken to make the prime directives very pleasurable for human beings. So being strong, the leader, mating whenever we like, and in control of our environment are still the best rushes a human being ever will hope to feel.

Not to mention that pain can become pleasure/addiction for at least humans.

Let's not examine the pathological flipside of this.

It seems quite logical, seeing how similar different genders of fetuses look at early stages of develpment. Maybe it was the simplest way for evolution, and since it proved to be no harm, it stayed.

I really don't know. Let's say ok on this and end with this aspect of the conversation.


Free will reply (morales of choices):

I wasn't trying to focus on the morality of choices, merely the notion that there are alternatives.

Theoretical. In the real time-line, we do what we do and that's all we did. It is in retrospect that we inject the free will illusion to our life. Of course we all think about what we did wrong, or what we could do better. We strive to be the most capable, after all...

Morales are individual, and the right thing differs from person to person. There are some commonly accepted morales however, which have lead us to this state of society, some which I see as good grounds and some not as good.

I love how you make meta-ethical perscriptive moral judgements on morality itself.  "some commonly accepted morals, I find good, some others not". Excellent. And useless.

Gay fag:
yes.

So uh, what are you doing this saturday night?

[biothlebop]

Uncovering the secrets of the universe:
Seeing that this started out as a game production thread we are quite far off but I am not either trying to discuss every philosophical dilemma in one session, just see where this goes. This is however the first argumentative internet discussion I have participated in that hasn't become like that special olympics picture, and I am enjoying it.

continuation on animals:
We had a dog that tore our garbage bags and ran away with the contents around the house. It kept doing it, although it was fed and it was scolded about it. The advantages must have outweighed the drawbacks in both cases.
I liked the last lines of the paragraph best. I agree that simple/primal things give the greatest joy in life, as does security which can come from belief or the people surrounding oneself.

moral judgements on moral itself:
It was indeed vague, mostly because I saw it as a topic that is so individual that arguing about it would more likely lead to flames than intelligent discussion. If you want to know my standpoint, I appreciate some of the ideals in the new testament, the freedom of an individual to the point that he doesn't hurt others by his actions bla bla. Sadly these and most ideals have trouble working out in real life and it could well be that we would have reached some sort of utopia without them.

This saturday:
I will probably travel about six hours tomorrow to be with my grandfather (and family), it seems he has fallen really ill and will probably die. Anyway, I will be spending the weekend with my family and relatives.

[Kinoko]

I'm still a little drunk this morning (mad, mad, insane fun at a teachers party last night/this morning), so I'm afraid I didn't read everything people have written, but...

I am bisexual, and I have been my whole life. I grew up in no way steered one way or the other, or with any gay influences as far as I can remember. I didn't even know what gay or bi -was- when I first started having attractions to boys and girls. I soon realised the girl bit was rather taboo but thankfully when I grew up I realised it was okay and now I'm very happy.

I don't care what theories people have about it. It's the way I am, it's the way I've been my whole life, and I never chose it, but I like it.

I know it's not that clear cut for a lot of people. I think there are many people out there who are in more of a gray area but I know that for me and hundreds of thousands of other people, it's very clear cut and natural like that.

The end.

P.S. Dunno about males but sex for female cats is AWFUL! I'm glad I have two female house cats who will never experience it.

[Helm]

This is however the first argumentative internet discussion I have participated in that hasn't become like that special olympics picture, and I am enjoying it.

I agree and also I enjoy how a discussion (although granted, between people who aren't you know, exactly locked in fierce opposition, here) can go fine like this on the interenet because we've been as usual, hearing a lot of 'nobody listens to anybody on the internet! Nobody changes their mind! These discussions are useless, lol!'. As soon as you touch sexuality, politics and religion there's a lot of people that just give up on the conversation having any meaning, and I understand why, more or less. But they adopt a superior cynical stance, and it's irritating. Nice to prove them wrong once in a while.

Which doesn't go to say that we've unearthed any grand truth about anything here, or in fact that any of our claims are valid or more valid than anyone else's. But that we are not trying to metaphorically club each other to death as soon as the penis is brought up is good.

We had a dog that tore our garbage bags and ran away with the contents around the house. It kept doing it, although it was fed and it was scolded about it. The advantages must have outweighed the drawbacks in both cases.

Although that animal might have been malfunctioning, yes, I do understand what you're saying. Apparently the call for the bags was irresistable.

I liked the last lines of the paragraph best. I agree that simple/primal things give the greatest joy in life, as does security which can come from belief or the people surrounding oneself.

A human being will never feel fully secure though, because unlike an animal for which security means as far as eyeshot and earshot goes, things being calm, human beings understand the world in abstracted terms and there's the theoretical everything else ouside of our immediate surroundings, constantly scaring us. This I believe has been the biggest call for constant technological progress, the abstractified need for security and control. That's I think, the urge that pushes us onward and outward, in our nietzcheian course to feed on everything, to crush with our weight all other life. Even the metaphysical understanding of the world can be viewed from the spectrum. A philosopher-man that codifies, maps and categorizes reality neatly so it's more safe and controlled. So that he may feel rewarded for his effort biochemically, and sleep better at night.

I think these rationalizations of reality, as useful as they are (we're partaking in one right now) are however inherently dualistic and incapable of portraying a full picture of the world. We're looking at little bits, neglecting the whole constantly. And since everything influences everything, our understanding of the whole reality model is always doomed to be hilariously simplified and incomplete.

But all this is fun to do!

I don't have anything to say about morality. It's an invented thing that I possess like anyone else but with which I don't feel I have much to do. It is as it is and regardless of HUGE WORDS about how things should be, or miniscule mutterings about how things should be, in the end I'll do what I'll do, as I was taught to do and as I've rationalized I should do. The 'system' in 'morality system' is a lie. We just do as we do, and constantly mutate ethically to meet our needs.

fallen really ill and will probably die.

Oh. I thought you might wanna fuck, but ok.

Kinoko, but! Will you not allow your cats to you know, mess around sexually with a few males, then discard them? Experience points count, lol! Nothing serious, you know, just toying with somebody else's emotions and then expunging any weakling but incandescent flame that might have been kindled in a real, alive, and feeling feline's little heart? Just a sickening, sweeping broad stroke of carelessness that paints one as the truly irresponsible and negligent egotistical being they are. Your cats need that XP, dude, come on. They need to level up.

[Kinoko]

I don't want them to get a taste for it. If it were children, sure thing. But I don't speak cat so I can't give them any advice or warnings, so it's best to let them live out glorious lives of sleeping, eating, cuddles and playing with toilet paper rolls.

[Helm]

Keep taking me literally all the way to when I set your house on fire.

[Kinoko]

Like I said, still a little drunk. So... what -were- you talking about then? You'll need to spell it out for me. I was under the impression we were joking about cats.

[Haddas]

You know, this isn't what I expected to see when I opened the thread

[Helm]

We are talking about this.

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=25516.msg321563#msg321563

So yes, I think you are a lucky bastard for the moment. I recommend you do some dirty things with her quickly (experience points count!) and then break up with her. Not meanly, just... tell her you've decided the age gap is too difficult to handle and you want to save further heartbreak for the both of you later.

I desire your demise for this.

[Kinoko]

For what?

[Helm]

For that.

[Kinoko]

Sorry, let me rephrase - Huh?

Or, "Why?"

[Helm]

I'm not sure there's any point to spell it out. You'll find out on your own in time anyway.

[Kinoko]

Okay, well let me see if I'm in the ballpark here.

You're angry at me over some ancient thread on which I made a comical post to some guy about having fun with a pretty girl, after which you, to me, overreacted insanely. Right now, I'm wondering if that's cause you had your heart broken by some girl who had her fun with you during teenage years. Since then, you've made it your mission to be an arse to me, whereas I had no idea why until now, and held no ill-will towards you and still don't except that I'm annoyed that you're so angry at me for something so dumb.

If that's wrong, I'm sorry, you -will- need to spell it out to me. I probably -won't- find out in time, I have no idea what that's even supposed to mean.

EDIT: The comic Unilin posted in that thread is really funny XD I'd forgotten about it.

[Helm]

You're angry at me over some ancient thread on which I made a comical post to some guy about having fun with a pretty girl, after which you, to me, overreacted insanely. Right now, I'm wondering if that's cause you had your heart broken by some girl who had her fun with you during teenage years. Since then, you've made it your mission to be an arse to me, whereas I had no idea why until now, and held no ill-will towards you and still don't except that I'm annoyed that you're so angry at me for something so dumb.

Yeah! Only nobody broke my heart (well a lot of people trampled on it but that's life) but I did this 'lol experience!' thing to someone and it was horrible and I regret being like that to another human being so I'm hating myself through you.

But that's not my big problem with you. My big problem with you (and by big I mean pretty small but hey, this is the internet! Let's exaggerate!) is that you post everywhere and most of your posts are either 'lol I know this sounds stupid but I have a right to be stupid, lol!' or just tired interchangable stuff. And you like japanese rpgs. And you're a woman.

Obviously, apology not accepted, I will continue to hate you forever! NNGH!

[Kinoko]

Dude, I have never said "lol" in any manner but jest or sarcasm. I also capitalize the first letters of the sentences that I write.

That said:  :'(

I think that through all the wonderful things about me, three points stand out above all the rest.

1. My womanliness.
2. My love of Japanese RPGs.
3. My charming, often witty, often deep and meaningful hidden amongst simple and innocent sense of humour.

These are what I put on my resume anyway, but it's really my own personal opinion. I've been told by others that my shoes are usually pretty good, too. Coming in at close 4th would be having all 10 fingers, intact, all covered in skin. Rather proud of that one.

I think it's your own loss if you can't get past your self-hatred through me problem to truly experience my awesomeness :/ I hope we can begin to mend the bridges.

(...by which I mean the metaphorical bridges of friendship. I am implying they were metaphorically burnt, or broken in some way)

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

I'm sorry about that, OSquinky. I can't be sure, but I hope there's people out there for you with whom you'll be able to have sex with minimum discomfort. Or at least with as much discomfort as you'd enjoy.

Well, actually, I wasn't talking about myself specifically. But thanks for the thought!

I know it's not that clear cut for a lot of people. I think there are many people out there who are in more of a gray area...

Like me, for instance. I was pretty sure I was bi about five years ago, during a period when I got crushes on a couple of my female friends. However, that was until I realised that said crushes were way more emotionally-based than physically-based, and that I'm not really attracted to women's bodies to the same degree as I am to men's bodies. Then again, I sometimes wonder whether my fascination with men's bodies is due to curiosity; I don't have a penis so I ooh and aah at them, whereas I have boobs of my own so I don't see the big fuss about those. A part of me realises that it would feel just as good to have intimate physical with relations with a woman as it would with a man; my body, after all, won't be able to tell the difference.

So what am I, then, you ask? Well, I don't consider myself anything under the "queer" umbrella term, but I don't really consider myself "straight", either. To tell you the truth, I refuse to label my sexuality altogether, because it just isn't as big a part of who I am as it is for most people. Sometimes, I think that life would be a LOT simpler if we all had nothing but smoothness between our legs.

[MrColossal]

Smoothness:

We'd look better in bathing suits!

[Kinoko]

It's be more hygienic.

[Helm]

Kinoko:



OSquinky: I'm sorry for assuming you were talking about yourself. Easy but akward mistake to make.