Bone: Out From Boneville

[Steel Drummer]

this is absoflippinlutely ridiculous. This is supposed to be about a game! I'm changing the subject..... what is everyone's views on, say..... Indiana Jones IV?

[Sam.]

Yodaman. The reason people are saying your art is crappy, is essentially because it is crappy. Compared to the art in the commercial Bone games that are out at the minute. What people on the forums don't see is the POINT of remaking a game that was released very recently, to a high standard. I appreciate that you have already finishe a game of your own creation and I wish you the best of luck with it, but it seems like a step bakcwards to begin work on a poor remake. Thats normally a "first project", the idea that most people join the community with, only to learn its a bad idea. At the moment, your art isnt up to a reasonable standard to do justice to the Bone series, but with practice, it could be. Not everyone hates your art, but it seems rushed. I suggest you take a little bit longer thinking up an original plot of your own, spend a VERY long time on the art, as you have potential, and then you'll produce a great game, I'm sure.

Don't waste your time on this Bone game. Please.

[Saberteeth]

You couldn't nailed it better, Zooty. same here.

[lo_res_man]

Ditto from this monkey.
Yodaman11111: I know how you feel, when I first read the bone books at my local library, I wanted to make a game too, but I quickly realized (this was before I even knew about the game) that I couldn't do it justice. So practice your art, show us that game you made and, lets go from there.

[Nacho]

Shit... I see Bone everywhere, I don't know if I am at CL, GiP or general. I had enough of this. Allow the guy to make the game!!!

If the game is closed by the owner of the copyright, he surrenders before finishing it, or nobody download it, we will laugh of him!!! Mwahahahhhahahahahahhaha!!!

Untill that moment, don't feed the troll!!! You filled almost 10 pages about this stuff!!!

Hope this works and people leaves the guy alone... ^_^ If not, I'd being feeding the troll and falling into hypocrisy... 

[ManicMatt]

HAHA very funny photo!

Inaction and action? Lets take Jennifer (Love) Hewitt. I fancy her. I have done nothing about it. Nor will I. I cannot stop fancying her either. There is no choice to be made about whether I will fancy her or not. Same applies with anyone else.

Oh, and did Brian Molko of Placebo choose to look a bit like a girl? No, he didn't! He's bisexual i think. Are you the least bit surprised?

Nuture? How would it be nurtured? Please explain further.

EDIT: *re-reads Farlander's post* Oh, hehe oops! But this is the most interesting thread on AGS right now! (other than Helm's comic competition)

[Helm]

I've read variations of this argument so many times... I don't think it's safe to say that homosexuality is 100% choice or 100% natural tendency, but from my point of view, what a choice is, is the result of the culminative effects that have shaped your character up to that point, so it's really a non-choice ("free will" is something that I don't understand) so even if someone felt that he 'chose' to be gay, I still see it as a deterministic effect. People enjoy thinking of their life as a series of uninfluenced idealistic crossroad-choices, but the truth of the matter is probably quite more complicated, and the only 'choice' you made in any situation would be the only one your distinctive mechanism, all in all, the product of such complicated procedures, would have made. You're just self-aware and along for the ride, rationalizing and going 'oh my!' all the while.

The question is then, if the homosexual tendency occurs early in life or if it's an encouraged and cultivated trait... Here's an approach: Why would homosexuality occur in nature? Is it an error? A cultivated error that human hospitability and the lack of evolutionary culling has allowed to spread? Could be, originally, I don't think that's only it, mainly because it seems sex for a few animals (not just us) has been enjoyable and relaxing from the get go. What reason is there for sex to be enjoyable? Most would say so we would get to mate, but that's simplistic. Sex is a very painful, even violent process for a lot of animals and they still feel the primordial biochemical urge to mate, I'm sure human beings could have been created the same. Sex is fun times, I don't know who to ask on the 'why' of it, but as a stress reliever, it is the main reason we, and other animals that masturbate, have sex that doesn't result in pregnacy or have homosexual sex aren't as easy to brand evolutionarily dead-wood. It's as much a natural byproduct of how the human mechanism works as it is the result of continuous social fortificiation of these programmed effects. For people that narrowly think homosexuality is UNNATURAL, every time you touch your peepee and semen comes out and it's not in a vagina you're being quite unnatural too, then.

We can reach down and touch our penis, though. Touching our penis feels good, though. Anal intercourse and stimulation of the prostate feels good, though. All these things are unnecessary for the procreation of the species. Why, then? Natural design by accident? I don't know, but that preposition seems kinda iffy. What I do know is that human beings will do what they find enjoyable and relaxing and no ten-ton-hammer of morality is going to change that.

That being said, I hate black people, and fags, and most of all, these cats that have no hair on them? Hate them.

[MrColossal]

Oh but look at him Helm! Here maybe this will help, look how scrotal they appear! I bet that makes them better for you!

Also holy shit Helm, I'm not saying we disagree a lot of the time I'm just saying that:

"Sex is a very painful, even violent process for a lot of animals and they still feel the primordial biochemical urge to mate"

I couldn't be pleased with this sentence more.

[Helm]

Jesus fucking Christ keep that away from me

[Nacho]

Maniac, I am not God, if you like to go on with this thread, please do, specially because it's something completelly different to the original topic, and it's freakin'funny!

   

It is just that I am starting to have enough of Bone...

[ManicMatt]

Maniac, I am not God

Your not? Shit! *Demolishes his Farlander worship temple*

Hey waitaminute? Maniac?? First ManicMutt, now ManiacMatt? It's MANIC! Just ask Thomas Vob or ProgzMax! 

[Babar]

Thomas Vob! Thomas Vob! This is so great!

Hot potato! Hot potato!
Don't pick it up! Don't pick it up!
Pass it on! Pass it on!


Ahem...yeah. Again, what was being discussed? What has whether it is choice or natural tendency got to do with anything? Are you saying that if it was found to be 100% choice, it would suddenly become not okay?

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Helm, sometimes you type so much b.s. that even I am impressed.  Bravo.

[MrColossal]

Since I agree with Helm, could you please enlighten me to what B.S. he wrote. Or would you rather dismiss his entire post with a "pithy" one sentence post?

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Sex is a very painful, even violent process for a lot of animals and they still feel the primordial biochemical urge to mate...

It is for a lot of humans too...

[biothlebop]

ManicMatt (about inaction/ JLH):
Yes, there are some things you cannot influence. Like your own birth, but everything after that is in your hands.
You can influence your fancying her by self-suggestion to some degree. That is why I believe many stereotypes and alike exist. Most people who live by strict rules or in a black/white world tell themselves things are one way and refuse to accept other views.
Your fancying her might not even be completely your choice, since your view is probably based on a image created by corporations, and if you met her in real life, she could shatter that image. It's like in Enjoy the Silence.
I assume you speak of physical attraction, which is a polished image you see. In a different time with different ideals, you might fancy the image of fat women or those with bug-eyes.
What I am trying to say, your fancies are partly dictated by your surroundings, intentionally fighting against norms will result in different fancies after time. Like all kids start out nice, some end up in jail, while others are model citizens. Genetics have something to do with it as well (according to my knowledge 50% of the people in jail have ADHD) but your enviroment shapes you. You can choose/try to block out outside influences.

Helm:
I don't know much about sex between animals and which species hurt during intercourse so the following is theorizing.
Animal intercourse is violent and nasty to let the best (in strength) individuals reproduce. A strong enough male can force itself on many females (as far as I know, in the most species the males are dominant) and it resembles rape in many cases which can physically hurt humans as well. I'd believe there are very few species (that also are primitive and have a niche which depends on  forementioned strength, example hunting species) whose intercourse is always nasty. I'd guess that a pleasant intercourse increases the reproduction of a species and most species are capable of that if there are not enviromental burden factors involved. If mastrurbation had lead to a decrease in reproduction-effiency, we wouldn't have evolved to the top of the food chain. It is not the cause for humans ruling over all species but I don't see it as a hindering factor, it might even be positive.
The only animals whose intercourse I see as especially nasty are spiders where the female eats the male, but I guess those species that have a nasty intercourse do it less often and have more offspring to balance things out.

Regarding choice and free will, we are indeed in space and nothing we ever do will actually matter or last forever so all choices are redundant, pointless. Your actions might be predicted by a supercomputer in the future to 100%, but you will still do things that will only harm you, maybe even actions that you know the result of beforehand. An example from my life: Some years ago when I was supposed to go to school a regular morning (no exams or anything) I began to think about free will on my way there. I decided to turn around and walked in the opposite direction where was absolutely nothing but trees and it was immensely boring. Two hours later, I had walked back and went to class, apologising that I had missed the first lesson. Such illusion of free will is enough to me, even if it might not have been completely spontaneous. As long as you have functioning senses, you can make choices. Even if all choices were dictated beforehand, there were also realistic alternatives (that might be just illusions) that were closed off from you.

A little clarification to the above: I don't mean Helm by saying you, but a general human.

My belief about homosexuality is that it is more a product of enviroment than genetics, although both contribute. It is not a disease or more unnatural than a Mule/Liger, but hopefully we won't live on sperm banks tomorrow (sex between siblings in the intenton to reproduce is though, as it results in a more narrow genetic base).
However, we have conquered evolution and thus I see no problem with homosexuality. It might be that in the future evolution will show itself as a psychological selection.

[lo_res_man]

"we have conquered evolution" huh? sorry to disappoint ya, but from my observations and research, we humans are still pretty much still driven by the same urges and desires we had when we first crawled from the cave. I men what is love, (as in parent-child) but a protection mechanism so that genes will get passed on? what  if a  modern man found out his partner (man or woman) having sex with someone else? He would feel the same emotions he would have if he had been born  45,000 years ago. We 21st century people are SO arrogant, we like to think we have conquered nature, as if  we are so "enlightened"
face the facts, modern civilised man ( and woman) is just thin veneer over top of our beast within. Man is an animal, very smart, but all the more stupid for it.  For all the good and bad that entails.  We are man, Homo Sapiens’s, let us not forget what we are.

[Helm]

It is for a lot of humans too...

I'm sorry about that, OSquinky. I can't be sure, but I hope there's people out there for you with whom you'll be able to have sex with minimum discomfort. Or at least with as much discomfort as you'd enjoy.

biothlebop, thank you for the insightful reply. Here are some thoughts on your points.

Animal intercourse is violent and nasty to let the best (in strength) individuals reproduce. A strong enough male can force itself on many females (as far as I know, in the most species the males are dominant) and it resembles rape in many cases which can physically hurt humans as well.

The rape thing is irrelevant. I am talking about the biochemically triggered sensations of orgasm being pleasurable, not the way the intercourse went about and if there was forcing or pain involved. So that's out of the way. And also, the 'only the strongest mate' is irrelevant because they do not die from the physical discomfort of mating. The stronger survive against the dangers of nature itself, or from fighting each other to establish an order with the alpha male on top. That's all besides the point. The point was: for a lot of animals, reproducing itself, hurts like a bitch. And they still do it, they're still biochemically driven to do it. Keeping that in mind, the why human beings enjoy sex question is a very interesting one. Why do women have the ability to orgasm? Is it an evolutionary left-over (remember, humans are comparatively a young species that still evolves) from the copying of the male biological structure? Why does the stimulation of the nerve endings in the anus produce a pleasurable result for both genders? There's a lot of food for thought there if you like tossing salads.

The only animals whose intercourse I see as especially nasty are spiders where the female eats the male, but I guess those species that have a nasty intercourse do it less often and have more offspring to balance things out.

There's a lot of obvious other stuff. When a dog ejaculates, it's penis bloats in order to be kept inside the female dog's genitals to ensure fertilization (that's right, this is my opening line at parties when I meet new girls). This, as I've noticed, seems to cause the female great discomfort, and the male isn't exactly happy its very sensitive member is now caught in a struggling trap. Cats don't enjoy the whole deal either. There's so many examples. But then there's the masturbating gorilla or kangoroo or other mammal that gets off to relax. And then there's humans. It's complicated.

Regarding choice and free will, we are indeed in space and nothing we ever do will actually matter or last forever so all choices are redundant, pointless. Your actions might be predicted by a supercomputer in the future to 100%, but you will still do things that will only harm you, maybe even actions that you know the result of beforehand [...] Such illusion of free will is enough to me, even if it might not have been completely spontaneous. As long as you have functioning senses, you can make choices. Even if all choices were dictated beforehand, there were also realistic alternatives (that might be just illusions) that were closed off from you.

This is such a big subject to touch upon in passing. I'll just say that yes, the illusion of free will is useful and we all operate under it, whether it's 'enough for you' or 'enough for me' is irrelevant. Sorry to say irrelevant this, irrelevant that, but I'm trying to keep this relatively on topic. The topic being, yodaman's Bone game. My big issue is one with terminology, not what actually goes on. We all make our choices. My issue is with explaining to people that they're not choices, but 'choices'. This is more important that it might initially seem, because there's a lot of over-the-top moralizing that rests strictly on the presuposition that the human animal can make pure, uninhibited choices against some abstract ethical status which has nothing to do with his collected experience and genetic makeup. I believe morality is as well dictated by genetic memory and the complex factors that interface to create a human being, and that every choice, whereas there's theoretical alternatives, was the definite one because we can never go back and 'choose differently'. We entertain theoretical notions about 'what ifs...' because of regret and pain caused by a tried method of approach, and that's where this illusion of free will first manifests itself. In regret and pain. This tells me a lot about myself, I don't know about you.

A little clarification to the above: I don't mean Helm by saying you, but a general human.

No worries, I understand you. When I say you however, I mean a gay fag. Clear on that, right?

However, we have conquered evolution

I don't understand what that means. Do you mean conquered our atavistic instinctive directives? If so, HAHA If you mean that due to technological advances we may have halted our actual physiological evolutionary progress since a lot of weaklings get to survive and spread their genes, I think this is not completely incorrect, but misleading because we will evolve in other ways (mentally) to create new pecking orders, new plasmatic fields in which to excell and be the alpha male. Life feeds on life if there's anything looking at nature has taught us, and the antagonism of the shelfish gene will not be stopped because we now ride in cars instead of ineffectually trying to run away from the rhino.

Progz: I am not trying to impress you. I don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense to you, but please don't discount my point of view as fancy streams of terms ment to confuse or impress.

what is love

baby don't hurt me

[biothlebop]

First, to lo_res_man and Helm about the "conquered evolution thing":
I agree that it's not entirely true in the way that we would have conquered evolution. After all, before we can eliminate sex entirely and mess with cloning, start massproducing people artificially, it will always be in there. Maybe even after that. What I meant was that even homosexuals can have offspring of their own by insemination, people do not die from the same causes as a hunded years ago etc. Evolution has lead to us finding these tools, so it is always present.

Helm:
This applies at least to the paragraph below my first quote in your post: I understand now better what you were aiming for, sometimes fancy words (like atavistic in the recent post) or train-of-thoughts confuse me so I wandered off. I apologize for those times you found my points irrelevant or at the side of the topic. Keeping this relatively on topic however seems like a lost cause.

About animals having sex although it hurts:
For example, I think of kids who eat so much candy they throw up or get sick. It might be partly a lack of experience and the sudden sensation of sickness comes so soon that it overwhelmes them. Many animals have a short memory (goldfish as an extreme), and I guess dogs are mostly driven by their instincts like you say. They can be conditioned (pavlov) to not do things, maybe there is a lack of experience/conditioning also, before instincts can be fought.
Not to mention that pain can become pleasure/addiction for at least humans.

The orgasm/anus nerves theory:
It seems quite logical, seeing how similar different genders of fetuses look at early stages of develpment. Maybe it was the simplest way for evolution, and since it proved to be no harm, it stayed.

Cats & Dogs:
I had heard a little about that but completely forgotten about it.

Free will reply (morales of choices):
I wasn't trying to focus on the morality of choices, merely the notion that there are alternatives. Morales are individual, and the right thing differs from person to person. There are some commonly accepted morales however, which have lead us to this state of society, some which I see as good grounds and some not as good.

theoretical choices:
I have had what if's regarding things I have done good as well, but less often. Retrospect is a essential thing in all abstract philsophical thought. When people age, even their thoughts and regrets change. Old people have regrets over things they have left undone (and are often glad that they tried), while younger regret things they did wrong. I do have regrets, but find myself thinking back as well and smiling over things I have done or being glad that I didn't die/end up in a wheelchair all those times I could have.

Gay fag:
yes.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Since I agree with Helm, could you please enlighten me to what B.S. he wrote. Or would you rather dismiss his entire post with a "pithy" one sentence post?

Yes, and I will conclude with a sentence fragment like.