Discuss about drugs

[m0ds]

Shrooms aren't too bad... If the wrong person takes them then yes surely they're going to mess up and go mental. But for everyone else it's a pretty fun, tame experience. Puts your mind as one with the earth & is quite pleasent. It's the same with any drug really. Someone not used to it, ready for it or just not with a tolerant mind-frame will fuck up on it. People go to Amsterdam to fuck up on drugs But no-one goes to fuck up on them and cause problems for everyone else. And with shrooms it's just natural that some people won't handle them. They're one step closer to acid. Cannabis sure isn't..! I've had friends who have gone absolutely crazy on shrooms and I've had not-so-great experiences myself. And to be fair as a tourist if I was shrooming in Amsterdam I probably would go a bit mad :p But I've always asscociated mushrooms with Amsterdam thats for sure! Just pissed off I didn't do them again when I was there the other week... LOL :p

Shrooms are now an A-class drug in England. I'm surprised they got banned in Holland, but I guess it was kind of obvious. As far as I know they're cracking down on smoking in hotels & bars like we have in the UK, coffeeshops being the only exception to indoor smoking. They'll be shut down sooner or later too I'm sure Still i'm just a raving druggie but i'd like to do shrooms again. When it's good its a totally different plain PHAT

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

This is the first and probably last time I participate in a drug debate on the forums, but Nacho's comment "Do you do need drugs to bring interest to your live? I feel sorry for you, mate." pisses me off. It's like saying: "Do you need video games to make your life interesting? What a loser".

No it's not, not at all.  Videogames by nature do not impair normal thought processes. 

I would definitely recommend counseling and rehab for anyone who thought taking mood and mind-altering substances is what makes life worthwhile.  I would also recommend the same to someone so obsessed with videogames that their lives seemed empty without them (I've never heard of anyone who truly had this problem).  Either way you've become an abuser reliant on a fix, and in both cases you're impairing the quality of your own life by continuing down that road.

I can't really comment on the effects and misuse of shrooms, since I haven't tried them, but as a social libertarian I resent the ways that drug laws prevent the individual from exploring the potential of his own mind.

I don't mean this to be offensive, though it will likely sound such, but what potential, exactly?  Are you actually suggesting that drugs open up grand new vistas in the human psyche, allowing you to develop some zen-like abilities?  Because if you are, I call bullshit.  If anything, many drugs have been shown to have the reverse effect, even when used in the short term.  People regularly contest citations and studies, but I'll post a link to an NIDA article on marijuana use for the heck of it: http://www.nida.nih.gov/Infofacts/marijuana.html

People go to Amsterdam to fuck up on drugs Cheesy But no-one goes to fuck up on them and cause problems for everyone else.

Unfortunately with drug use these often go hand in hand.  Avoiding the use of substances that impair your ability to determine right from wrong is pretty much a good idea all around.

[GarageGothic]

No it's not, not at all.  Videogames by nature do not impair normal thought processes.

I didn't compare playing video games to taking drugs (though some of the best games DO create an altered state of reality for as long as you play them). I referred to Nachos intentional misquoting of mchammer (who said that people on drugs do have interesting experiences) as if he had said that drugs were the ONLY way for him to interesting experiences, which he never did. I was merely showing the absurdity of that statement by comparing it to the unfairness of someone who found video games interesting (maybe "fun" would be a better word), like most people around here, being attacked with the same line of reasoning: That since you're playing them, they must be the only thing that makes your life interesting, and hence you're a very sad person.

And I totally agree with your recommendations of counselling to either, if that was actually the case. But nobody ever claimed so in this thread, except Nacho.

I don't mean this to be offensive, though it will likely sound such, but what potential, exactly?  Are you actually suggesting that drugs open up grand new vistas in the human psyche, allowing you to develop some zen-like abilities?

Nothing so grand, I'm afraid. But I think I gave a perfectly good example describing my own experiences. No matter how creative I am without drugs, I definitely feel that cannabis helps me free associate and make connections in surprising ways that often bring on entirely new ideas and avenues of thought,  that I can then use in my work. It's no miracle drug, for sure, it won't bring creativity by itself. But it's surely an enhancement drug, whether you're contemplating your own art or enjoying someone else's. I'm not recommending others to use it without caution, because I think it's a highly individual thing. And obviously there are situations such as attending school or performing work that requires concentration or physical precision, where it's downright counterproductive - I'm myself taking a break while finishing my thesis. But the effect is certainly something that I'd like to explore further once I have only my game to worry about.

[You must also take into consideration, than most creative activities have several stages, where some might benefit from drugs while others won't. I wouldn't like to do scripting while high - or rather, I'd hate to try to debug it later - due to the effect on short term memory. Cannabis does however boost lateral thinking, and I've solved several concept-level problems in scripting, such as function optimization, after smoking a joint, scribbled it down on a piece of paper and implemented it later on.]

Edit: Something tells me this thread will come back to haunt me one day when I'm applying for a job.

[Phemar]

Drugs such as cannabis or shrooms are completely natural and there's nothing wrong with using them. Studies have shown that there are no longterm effects of either. I have read papers that compare the drugs with alcohol and I can say alcohol is by far worse than either (if you want them just ask I have them on my hard-drive).

And yes, I can say that cannabis and shrooms do allow your mind to open and in a way make you 'smarter' (for lack of a better word) while under the influence.
While intoxicated with cannabis you can watch a person behave, and know everything - their motives, their state of mind etc. You can tell immediately if someone's lying.
Watching human behavior while under the influence is wonderful as it's like you've been studying psychology for 3 years. And that's just one of the brilliant amount of things to while intoxicated.

And you people like Progzmax and Nacho (I respect you guys and your opinions), but try not to be so close-minded. There is nothing wrong with something which is completely natural.. All these drugs do is trigger the release of certain hormones in your mind (dopamine)  which could not happen while sober. Sometimes it's just a nice way of chilling out.
Try it before you create such harsh opinions of the drug. (And sorry if you have tried it before, then I withdraw that statement and respect your opinion).

Besides, your body produces endogenous cannabinoids naturally, all cannabis does it put a little bit more into your body

[Nacho]

I can' t understand how can you still mention alcohol to me. I rarelly drink alcohol. I never defensed it in this thread.

But what annoys me most is that NOBODY has stablished a basical difference between the "spirit" of alcohol and the use of mushrooms/cannabis/LSD, etc... Both are "taking something for recreational effects". What you are doing here is telling "No! No! If you want to kill someone the lethal injection is not the best option. Guillotine was better" You are not telling "Death penaly should be banned", which should be a good reply to "I support death penalty". You are discussing different ways of killing.

You are not discussing to me, you are just putting excuses to go on taking drugs without concience problems.

You are making en evasive maneuver.

Excuse me if I don' t admire your "I change alcohol for cannabis". I would admire "I changed alcohol for Sport/Writing/Social works/etc...", but not for this... (I still think that you are a great artist and game makes, so, no offense if I don' t admire ANY aspect of your life, ok?  )

I go on: I don' t know why in the XXIth century we still go on with "Natural is good... artificial is bad". The most powerfull poisons in earth are natural. The vaccines are artificial. Those who think that "using something to get something" that can be adquired "without taking anything" are not close minded. I know that drungs can help you "hear better/Interact better/imagine better/chilling out better/etc..." I know that. But yo can get all that "naturally" with a bit of training and attitude. Getting a shortcut, is, no matter what you say, a pitty.

And totally artificial, sorry, even if the mushroom is natural. ^_^

[JimmyShelter]

It's difficult for me to think that people wouldn't get such an experience. Of course wrongly used or if you arent strong minded (I dont mean that there are 'strong minded' and 'weak minded' persons, i just dont have better word for it) the experience can be very scary and bad, but i have never heard that anyone would think it wasnt learning.

I'm Dutch, and I did try it a few times in my late teens. Was fun, wasn't very learning. It seemed me and my friends who tried it together understood each other completely and we were so deep.
Well, we wrote stuff down, and when we were sober again, it was just bullshit.

It's just like cannabis, people think they're very insightful when they use it, but that's just a cool effect and nothing more.

[JimmyShelter]

But... but... that's what he said, that he uses mshrooms because it' s interesting, no? 

Well, you play adventure games because you find that intersting, does that make you boring?

[Nacho]

Yes ... and I breathe, because it' s funnier than dying. Are you really comparing doing normal things in live with using drugs?

[Timosity]

It's interesting seeing peoples different views and opinions of drugs, and that is all they are, opinions. No one is right or wrong, although you can't say that Marijuana (or other drugs) are not addictive.

Note: below are my experiences, and may not apply to others and I don't recommend taking any drugs, it's really best not to know, even if the experiences are good, the come downs can be a real biatch.

From My personal experience smoking 0.5 - 1 ounce of marijuana per week, was highly addictive and once your tolerance builds up to that sort of level, my guess is if you try to go cold turkey, by the end of that day (more realistically about 3 hours since your last smoke), you wont be able to sleep, eat, you will be very irritable, nauseous if you try to eat, stomach pains, and just a real prick to be around.

And at this sort of level, you don't even really get stoned, it's more just medication to feel normal. It's more like smoking cigarettes, smoking for the addiction. smoking 10 bongs in a row, and really only getting the hit from the bong, and not much lasting effect from high quality hydro, is not what you had originally planned, damn build up of Cannabinoid receptors.

The difference between marijuana and a lot of other drugs though is the way it is stored in your body, alcohol, heroin, speed, extacy etc are flushed out of your system relatively fast, (between hours and days depending on quantity) but marijuana gets stored in your fat cells, and can be detected in your system for a month or so and can be detected in your hair for many months.

if you would like to find out more about the reasons for tolerance, look up Anandamide which is the natural neurotransmitter in the body that stimulates the Cannabinoid receptors, THC also stimulates these receptors at a much higher level, hence creating more receptors, which is your bodies mechanism to keep you as normal as possible and to try to get rid of toxins faster.

You'll find this pretty similar with many other drugs, eg. opiate & nicotine receptors, with the effects of opiates and cigarettes.

pretty much for any drug to have an effect there has to be a receptor in the body, that will specifically accept it at a chemical level, which is a substitute for a naturally occurring substance already in the body. It's pretty freaky that we have experimented with so many things that we have actually found substances to stimulate these receptors.


As far as shrooms go, I've never actually tried them cause i hate mushrooms (food wise) to begin with, though I have tried LSD on a few occasions, don't really like it much, I did get some cool visuals, but what I don't like about it, for me personally was, the thoughts it put in my head, and for some stupid reason once I had a battle going on in my head, between coke and pepsi, whenever I saw a coke, I had to see a pepsi, so I had to just go on a mission, just to see a sign or a bottle and I had to see them in even numbers. Driving is not the best thing to do under this sort of drug, especially when the traffic lights are glowing.

Another time a group of us were at a music festival all day, we all took a trip at the start of the day, I just wondered round all day in my own little world, and eventually at the end of the day, we all ended up in the same place, at the same time, in the middle of a crowd (ie 50,000 people) a bit more sober , that was quite trippy in itself as we didn't organise a place to meet, and we hadn't run into each other at all during the day.

With LSD though (and some other drugs) the way you are feeling can effect the way it will effect you, and if you are scared to take it, you will more likely have a freaked out trip, so if you are really worried about taking it, don't.



combining drugs is pretty common too, and often it was just fun to see what combinations would do, probably the most I had at once was quite a few bongs, a trip, a few beers then doing nitrous oxide bulbs, that was an interesting night around a camp fire. but not too social, as with the shit going on in my head, conversation was had but not remembered.

Smoked opium once, and it just wiped me out, not really that much fun, I guess with most drugs you need to build up some sort of tolerance before you can really enjoy it, and with that shit, it's not worth bothering.

exctacy, not really a big fan, I can't really see what the fuss is about, not really my thing.

Never tried Cocaine, probably about the only drug I wouldn't mind experiencing at least once.

I got into a bit of speed for a while, mainly just to keep awake, and to sober up a bit during some big nights, but that shit has a very sharp comedown and it's effects anyway aren't really that great, I'm glad I never got into shooting that stuff into my veins as quite a few of my friends did.

I was never a big fan of alcohol, and my drug of choice was marijuana, if I was withdrawing from marijuana, I could not even contemplate alcohol, I didn't mind having a beer or 2 after some bongs, but if there was no beer there I couldn't be bothered getting any.

The main problem I had with marijuana in large doses was the lack of motivation, to do anything, including working, going out anywhere (unless it was a mission to score or go to a scenic location to smoke) and It does cause depression for me (and is common among users). Short term memory loss is a big thing, and a strange concept when you're driving and look around and think "where am I going again?" or "where am I?". You don't remember dreams either, that's one thing you notice when you come off the shit, you start having dreams again.

It took me years to eventually get over it, never really had a problem with any other drugs (except Aropax) a brand of anti-depressants that were prescribed, the withdrawals from them were severe and took me 3 months to get back to normal, not something I'll every try again.

Being dependent on anything is something that I never want.

I still have friends that take drugs, and I've been around them when it's going round but I never touch anything these days, and that's something I guess I've learned from experience, It's best just not to do it.

I still drink alcohol, and at some stages I've drank a lot, but never been able to get dependent on it, though I do crave a beer on a friday and saturday night, but during the week I don't even feel like it.

I actually had a big one friday week ago, just on the common balcony on the floor of my apartment building with a few neighbours, drinking til 5am and someone gave me some shots of tequila after about 8 beers, I passed out at some stage, til someone gave me a nudge, then woke up and had a few more beers. I had to play cricket the next day, I must say I was probably still drunk when I started playing, and I'm an opening bowler and we were bowling first. I was more fired up than I'd been in ages and I bowled one of the fastest and best spells of my life (and that was not just drunk thoughts, that was from the compliments I got from my team, and the opposition). I did feel pretty shit that night though.



It's up to the individual to decide whether or not to take any sort of drugs, just remember abuse of anything whether it be food, fetish, or fermentation, can be extremely bad for you.

Being in my 30's now, and with a mortgage, and fitter than I was in my 20's, I'm feeling pretty good, and I doubt anyone has actually read this far.

It's a surprise they banned anything in Holland, but I guess over years, things change, though I've heard the prices over there for drugs aren't really that much different to the black market anyway.

[Creed Malay]

 What was the reasoning behind the ban? Were tourists gobbling down thier own body weight in shrooms then running wild through Amsterdam, gibbering and yelling and peeing on poodles and generally being a public nusience? If so, fair enough on the ban.

Shrooms used to be quasi-legal in this country, so long as they were fresh and not dried - you could buy them form hippy-type shops - but got suddenly made class A a few years back. Given that most people who'd take them pick or grow their own, I doubt that the user base in the uk has altered significantly, although casual or impulsive users who bought theirs in shops obviously can't do that no more.

I tried them a few or more times, experiences raging from pleasant to awesome to full on quivering in terror nightmarish. As for "learning" from them, I made lots of insight's and had lots of ideas that seemed revolutionary while I was on them, but were nothing special after I'd come down.

Final point - Imagine a girl who was in a wheel chair. She broke her back when she was thrown off her horse. Obviously, not everyone who rides a horse will break their backs, some will have a lovely time and go on with their lives, or even keep up their horse riding hobby for years without injury or mishap. But if banning horseriding would save *just one* life, surely it'd be worth it? 

[Nacho]

Comparing the benefits of sport and its risks with using drugs... amazing! ^_^

[Creed Malay]

I was not being entirely serious, there.

[mchammer]

Comparing the benefits of sport and its risks with using drugs... amazing! ^_^

Tell me, what you know about the risks or benefits exactly?

I dont mean that there is no risks, of course there is, bad trip can be very very terrible experience.
But have you read a lot about drugs?
You just keep saying that drugs are only bad thing and people who dont think like you are boring nolife losers (and yes, i know you didnt say exactly like that but that's not important). How you know something what you have never tried or experienced is so bad thing? I dont
say you should try them, because you obiviously shoudnt, but why you cant accept that some people like to do different things than you?

Peace

[Nacho]

I did not read about drugs.

I used them.

... for a couple of years.
Weed, hachis, cocaine, LSD mushroom and speed. Under control and with a relative "scientific" and experimental point of view...

Never really knew why people seems to see something so extraordinary in them.

[voh]

I don't care either way. What I do feel annoyed at is the following (quoting the article due to a bad case of the Lazy):

The government had solicited advice from vendors, advocacy groups and the city of Amsterdam, which benefits greatly from drug-related tourism, on how to improve the situation.

Mushroom vendors suggested stricter ID controls to prevent underage buyers, and strong warnings against mixing mushrooms with other drugs.

I agree with this. Better ID control, warnings, good and clear information, and Cohen's suggestion for a 3-day delay between ordering and actually receiving should have been more than effective.

The danger now lies in people going out to pick their own shrooms for personal use or sale, with little or no information easily available but stuff on the internet, and then using it (and dying or getting tremendously sick) or selling it to people who will use it (and then die or get tremendously sick).

I'm of the opinion that better and easily available information will always be better than a ban. Rather people using bad stuff but knowing what they're doing than using bad stuff (regardless of laws, which they'll do anyway) and not knowing what they're doing.

Also, if somebody needs drugs to give their life meaning, all the more power to them. As soon as it starts interfering with my own life, however, I'll kick 'm in the balls swiftly. Amazingly enough, the same goes for people who're sober.

Meh.

Never done shrooms and have no intent to.

[Adamski]

Edit: Something tells me this thread will come back to haunt me one day when I'm applying for a job.

Perhaps if you end up relying on cannabis as some sort of creative crutch that makes an okay idea really good, as you're implying you do already. Maybe some alarm bells should be ringing there... I mean, you're not going to be able to get high in the workplace if you're having trouble fleshing out ideas or solving a programming problem.

[GarageGothic]

Oh, I more meant along the lines of human resources people in charge of employment digging up my ancient forum posts, but of course you have a point. That's not really the case though, since I never smoke when doing work-work.

[Stupot]

I've always thought of mushrooms as a wuss's LSD, and as I had a bad time on mushrooms you can safely say I'll never go anywhere near LSD (or anything else really, except alcohol and the odd hash-cake once in a while).

The thing is hallucinogens may well give you this 'spiritual' experience.  And if one wants to interpret that as some new level of understanding then that's up to them. I don't personally agree with that.

I think what you see under the influence is a distortion of the real world combined with some messy subconscious goings-on that usually only come out in dreams.   There are people in padded cells for having exactly the same symptoms.

My sister works in the kitchen of a psychiatric ward, and she's not really supposed to say anything about the patients, but she did tell me once about a young guy they had in there who had taken LSD and never came down.  So that is one risk.

And of course another risk is the flashbacks.  And I know from my own personal experience that flashbacks can happen from Mushorooms, not just LSD, so there is a real danger there. And although my flashbacks were relatively mild, I'm sure some people have had far worse ones than mine.   And for that reason I think restricting peoples use is a good idea.

To those people saying that Shrooms and Cannabis are 'natural' therefore safe... you guys need to think about what you're saying.   Would you eat any old frog without looking it up first to see if it was going to kill you or not? Or how about a serving of Deadly Nightshade?... Not to your taste?...Why not try some Fugu, I'll let you prepare it yourself.

[big brother]

So a government should make personal choices for its people?

Look at the prohibition and the results. Alcohol is one of the more dangerous poisons (it's a cellular toxin)  in society today, but trying to remove it from society had disastrous results. Demand doesn't disappear when the supply is restricted. A huge black market formed, organized crime increased, and the contraband lost all quality control (blindness, death, etc.).

Hell, caffeine is a physically-addictive, recreational psychoactive drug. You can OD on it, and they test for it at major sporting events (since it's a central nervous system stimulant, it falls into the category of a performance enhancing drug). Tobacco is the leading cause of death worldwide, killing over a third of the people who use it and burdening public health programs with billions of dollars worth of damage. I'd say this is slightly more deleterious than a few flashbacks.

History has proven that the legality of a drug is not about public safety, it's about politics.

[EldKatt]

People who havent tried it can easily claim that people who eat shrooms are just hallucinating so strongly that they think they have seen something wise. I can say that's not true but of course i have no way to proof it in internet. Only thing i can say is that read about people's experiences.

All I can say is that anecdotal evidence is crap. Okay, you have no way to proof it in internet. Don't expect anyone in the internet to be convince.

I currently see no rational reason to believe that "shrooms" in and of themselves instill you with any sort of wisdom beyond hallucination and euphoria. And shamans, though probably knowledgeable in some areas, were full of all sorts of crap.