Greece in trouble

[passer-by]

I say, ban the trigger-happy, aggressive, oppressive, sold, corrupted police and let the innocent civilians and political fighters do the patrols and deal with crime. Without guns. Or nightsticks. Or teargas.

Give me a break!

This was the golden opportunity for the media to avoid talking about certain events that have been quite uncomfortable for some powefrul greek people for quite some time now and concentrate on this mess until christmas shopping and national budget voting is over. Just my opinion.

The political party in power is irrelevant, thise things tend to happen and /or get the media attention when the media try to avoid awkward subjects.

The event itself will be clarified after some weeks, but what remains is the noise it makes at a certain period.

That said, of course I'd prefer an alive teenager and a policeman having just another of those days....
But somehow police always seems to be the aggressive part and 'civilians' are always unarmed, innocent and caught up in a riot by mistake. To me, this coincidence smells bad.

[Nacho]

For me, the "coincidence" is that the "killed person" allways is, from a group of 30 or 40 rioters, "the innocent guy who was walking there, doing nothing..."

The corpse never does anything... Allways the others... allways caught there for being unlucky... 

[Dualnames]

Well,it appears that well indeed ,as I'm posting this reporters still have breaking news, that some of our fellow greeks awaited for the chance to make some hell. And they got it, Sure some protested peacefully but we all know that peace doesn't sell..

[Matti]

Wow, this is going on and on. It reminds me of the banlieu-riots in Paris. It started with the death of two kids and suddenly the youth expressed their general frustration in aggression, mainly aiming at the police.

It's always the same, but it's hard to blame those who are throwing the stones. The problems have to be grabbed at their roots and that's mainly the task of the government, which is - in the case of greece, as far as I've heard - corrupt and inefficient.

Well, we'll see what this is leading to..

[Nacho]

It's always the same, but it's hard to blame those who are throwing the stones.

What???

[Nikolas]

Usually trouble is being caused by tens of youths (the 'anarchists'). This time the trouble is being caused by 1000s actually and it's all over Greece, it's not just Athens! The whole of Greece is being fed up with the situation and the awful conditions of life really. I would assume that I'm one of the lucky ones without too many problems, but there are many people who are struggling at 700 euros a month, for a family to live. And these are people with university degrees. 

On the other hand, civilians decided to rescue themselves and they have taken over parts of the city, the Patras University, last I heard, etc, and are defending their lives, their stores, their everything pretty much.

The goverment is full of shit, atm, and unable to do anything as it seems! Especially since the 1 directive that was given to the police was "BE VERY CAREFUL! DO NOT TOUCH, DO NOT HURT,..." Do not do your jobs properly as it seems!

And, yes, trouble is still going on.

[Andail]

For me, the "coincidence" is that the "killed person" allways is, from a group of 30 or 40 rioters, "the innocent guy who was walking there, doing nothing..."

The corpse never does anything... Allways the others... allways caught there for being unlucky... 

Except that now it's not about some 30 troublemakers and their idea of having fun, it's a widespread national reaction.

The killing was just a spark, it's pretty irrelevant who were right or wrong in that particular situation when the entire Greece is on fire.

[RickJ]

I'm one of the lucky ones without too many problems, but there are many people who are struggling at 700 euros a month, for a family to live. And these are people with university degrees.

Makes one wonder what sort of university degrees they have?  I once had a girlfriend who graduated with a BA degree in psychology and was astonished to find there wasn't any demand for such a degree.   Duh!    

[passer-by]

Makes one wonder what sort of university degrees they have? 

All kinds of degrees, I assure you, from teaching, to entertaining, to fixing, to healing.
All those people have voted twice (2X) in the past 5 years.

[Nikolas]

I'm one of the lucky ones without too many problems, but there are many people who are struggling at 700 euros a month, for a family to live. And these are people with university degrees.

Makes one wonder what sort of university degrees they have?  I once had a girlfriend who graduated with a BA degree in psychology and was astonished to find there wasn't any demand for such a degree.   Duh!    

Actually maths, physics, computer science, etc... Everything to everything. When you have thousands of people entering a university, with some silly exams, worth it or not, it's not weird that these people end up without a job! Maybe this is why I decided to follow the music path. At least I'm doing what I love! I was in the physics department before quiting it for music!

I do think that the same thing happens in the UK, where everyone ends up working in a bank or real estate, even if they have studied... biology for example. Then again the market is hugely bigger than that of Greece.

[Nacho]

Petter:

A) How can you know it's a "National" reaction?

I don' t know how big Athens is. Let' s say it has a million people. 20,000 rioters would be a lot (I am sure there are much less). 1,000,000 between 20,000 makes that the ratio is 1 angry person per 50 non angry people. I think it' s not enough to think that the feeling is so "global" that the prime minister has to resign.

I think somebody should invent a way so people could chose its rulers. I don' t know... people could make a meeting, each certain time, let' s say, 4 years, and decide which of the different people who has applied to be elected is the best option.

Oh wait! They already invented that! It' s called "democracy". And democracy means that you must respect what people elected for 4 years. Apparently it' s something that anti-system groups can't understand.

[passer-by]

Petter:

A) How can you know it's a "National" reaction?

I don' t know how big Athens is. Let' s say it has a million people. 20,000 rioters would be a lot

About 5 million legal inhabitants. Rioters are less than 20.000, protestants are many more than that.
People might call it national because it has spread in the greek province and many cities are reported to be in turmoil.

The political party on power is irrelevant, things like that happen all the time. This time is slightly worse because of the number of cities that participate.

If the last years are an indication, this will only lead to bitterness and vendetta between certain political and professional groups, which will lead to more violence and reactions.  Nothing more, nothing important. This is how all street fights end in Greece the last years.

*is afraid this is the case, once more*


About democracy: It is exactly about what people elected. When people realise they voted for Miss Greek Summer and ended up with some ugly old wench, then I guess they must do something about it, right?

[Nacho]

Yes. Wait 4 years till the next elections. That is what civilized people use to do.

[Sam.]

Ok, so it didn't work, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution

or a better example,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution

Two examples of the method of government simply being too unacceptable to the populous of the country to wait, the French were not very civilised in their methods, but I don't think calling the Spanish in the 30s non-civilised would be accurate? The people felt that they needed a change. So they tried to force one.

[Nacho]

Both examples are cases of ununcivilised acts, yes.

I am quite sure that half page in wiki is not enough to understand how uncivilised the Spanish Revolution was... I don't think taking priests and nuns to the town square and cut their throats is civilised. I don' t think that rioting the properties of the "rich people" (after slaughtering them) is civilised. Search a bit more, and then come back to the thread.

As for the French Revolution... Are you really being serious about how "civilised" it was?

Anyway, I don' t think that a revolt to finish with monarchy 200 years ago works fine as an example of what is happening today in a XXIst century democratic country as Greece... but if you think that if anytime people is not happy with the government should do what the antisystem groups are doing in Greece, then... well... You are wrong.

[Sam.]

I think I wrote the the French weren't civilised, in fact, i'm certain 

I'm not saying the actual revolutions were civilised, nor what is going on in greece, but I was trying to show what civilised people can be driven to. Sometimes it's not good enough to wait for 4 years.

Although it is never good enough to hurt innocent people in the name of a "cause".

[Nikolas]

The political party on power is irrelevant, things like that happen all the time. This time is slightly worse because of the number of cities that participate.

Fair enough. Just keep in mind that since... June or something (this is when I got back to Greece), there's been nothing but trouble, with tons of strikes, announcements from the government about drop of tax free in freelancers, etc... Remember those? When the government decided to say (they had to), that they owed much much more money than anticipated and in order to counter that they would just raise taxes in the lower classes? Remember the plan to join all different insurance "clans" into one (IKA)?

I would seriously believe that all the above have been gathering into the minds of everyone. Unhappy people are much easier to spring to rioting. And right now I don't think there's anyone happy.

Regardless of Pasok and ND actually, cause I hardly think Papandreou will do a better job, or even worst any of the left parties (brrr...). This is non party-related, but it is situation-related.

[Nacho]

Sometimes it's not good enough to wait for 4 years.

Why?

There are "acts" that are accepted in the democratic game. One of them is voting each 4 years. There are some other things to do between those periods; Make proseletism of the option you defend, assist to debates, even arrange a general strike or making pacific manifestations.

Going any further is uncivilised. If you can't understand, you' ll probably do in a future.

Zooty: If you are interested in how "civilized" the Spanish revolution was, you should read a bit of "Pío Mora", although I am not sure if there is something in English by him. And Ah! I don' t think he is suspecious of being "conservative raised" or something... He was a member of anti-fascist terrorist group GRAPO (before maturing, of course...).

A group of those which, like you, think that "waiting 4 years somethimes is not good enough" (they continued their activity after Franquism, they are active now, actually...)

[Nikolas]

Sometimes it's not good enough to wait for 4 years.

Why?

There are "acts" that are accepted in the democratic game. One of them is voting each 4 years. There are some other things to do between those periods; Make proseletism of the option you defend, assist to debates, even arrange a general strike or making pacific manifestations.

Tell you what. Date a new girl. If you do decide you don't like her for some reason, wait for 4 years for the next girl to come, in order to quit the relationship!

Farl, keep in mind that this is the middle of the 4 years, not the beginning.

[Sam.]

What if the president of spain suddenly cut the minimum wage, killing people for being too tall and put himself in direct charge of the military?

No, no, let's wait four years, see what happens, he might be going somewhere with this.