Greece in trouble

[Darth Mandarb]

What if the president of spain suddenly cut the minimum wage, killing people for being too tall and put himself in direct charge of the military?

No, no, let's wait four years, see what happens, he might be going somewhere with this.

I think you're misunderstanding Nacho's point!

I see (and, for the most part, agree with both sides).

If you voted "yes" to cut minimum wage, kill tall people, and put the president in charge of the military then yes, you should deal/live with it for four years (or until the next election).

However; If you voted for tax cuts, more jobs, and an increase in the minimum wage and then the president puts himself in charge of the military, cuts minimum wage, and then starts killing us tall folk then yes, of course, you should do something about it.

[passer-by]

Why?

Because in four years, you can change the prospects for four generations of school students, by changing the exam system from class to class and/or to University every year.
Because you can bury families in debt with your monetary/tax/salary/basic goods' prices policy.
Because you might have brought a really 'ugly' law that puts weak groups, like handicaped  people or minorities, in danger.
Because you may be not good enough to protect your people in international crisis or help them when disasters occur.

And so many more examples. If we only have  this one lifetime, four years is a very long time to waste.

Again, I'm not taking the part of any political party in here. Plus, this kind of 'revolution' is not my style. I believe in education and elections, really. I also believe that violence brings vendetta. I don't like vendettas.

I was waiting for this to happen starting off of some police stupid reaction ever since every police action went under the microscope some months ago, trying to make heroes out of some rioters. Each and every time the media focussed on that. This time, with the help of some badly trained and probably hot-headed person, it worked.

It is scary to think what will happen next.

[Nacho]

Ok... Apparently some people here think that if you don' t like your president you are allowed to this:


And this:

And this...

and...


Honestly... I thought you were more democratic, but no. If you can think of 4 "becauses" of why you don' t like your president it' s enough, you can start a revolt...

(Must I assume that the rest of the 200 countries of the world without riots have a list with, as maximum, 3 "buts" in the management of their respective presidents?)

Exactly what Pinochet did, no? Pinochet had an inmense list of things he didn' t liked of Allende. He discussed it with their buddies in the army and they agreed that the President was doing bad enough that they had to do something "more" than voting. Of course, that example doesn't  count...

When Che did it, it was ok. When the riots started against Sarkozy it was ok... Now it' s okay. With Pinochet no. When the next fascist forces start a revolt against an elected democratic socialdemocrat I will cut and paste this posts, to see what you say in that situation.

To clarify: I didn' t supported Pinochet. But I don' t support anti-system riots, either.

I thought autolabelled "pacifists" and "progresist" people would agree with me, but apparently they find "buts" when the people who starts their revolts has ideas they sympathy with... It' s funny. Patethically funny, but funny.

And Nik: If you are in the middle of the 4 years, the better. Only two for changing the situation, no? Well... The problem is that then the president might repeat, and no! That, no! 

[Nacho]

Passer-by, I simply don' t understand your point.

I asked "why".

My "Why" was not questioning if the president was doing "good", "bad" or "average". I think I never wrote a single word in this thread (Or anywhere, to be honest) about what I think about Costas' government.

I asked "Why" questioning if "The president has done bad enough to receive "that". (And by "that" you have some pics in the previous posts as an example).

Has Costas done bad enough for 400 families in Athens to lose their business places? Has Costas done bad enough for thousands of people seeing how their car burn? Has Costas done bad enough that the only possible sollution was to start a revolt where the main victim is the "average" person? I think not. I don't life in Greece, but what arrives to me is that what is happening now is, IMHO, only deserved in an attempt to preserve democracy. Costas might be an ass, but he is not putting democracy in Danger, I think. At least not much as dozens of world leaders who did not had to face a revolt.

Like what happened in Paris. "Two guys came and fired my car on, shouting: "Fuck Sarkozy!". But that was not Sarkozy's car! That was MY CAR!"

Imagine an example. Someone kills Bush because he thinks he has managed the country very unpropperly for eight years. I ask "Did he deserve to die?" And you reply to me "His decissions were bad". NO. I am not asking if his decissions are good or bad. I might probably agree that his decission were bad. I am asking "Did he deserve to die?".

Same here. I ask about the riots and you reply me about Costas'  decissions. I don' t give a damn about Costas decissions.

I ask "apples", you reply "pears".

And at the end, you say: "Again, I'm not taking the part of any political party in here. Plus, this kind of 'revolution' is not my style. I believe in education and elections, really. I also believe that violence brings vendetta. I don't like vendettas."

Which is basically my point. I think you tried to counter argument me, but I don' t see how... Please, if I am wrong and you were not trying to argue with me make me clear.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

"Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories." - Thomas Jefferson

"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." - John Fitzgerald Kennedy

It seems that oppressive governments refuse to acknowledge the wisdom offered them by their forbears, instead continuing down dark roads of corruption only to be surprised when people shout 'enough!' and openly air their grievances.  I'm sure Greece is another case of a boiling kettle that finally had the top taken off, and all the attempts at peaceful reform that fell on deaf ears have now turned to open revolt.  It's sad in our supposedly enlightened times that we have corrupt and inefficient governments just about everywhere in the world, governments out for themselves and not for the people.  Maybe Jefferson was right; maybe every generation does need a revolution.

[RickJ]

I would agree with ProgZmax if the protesters were from a cross section of the population.  However, it seems that they are all from a small but vocal fringe political faction.   I think some people are missing Nacho's point that in a functioning democracy there are non-violent methods of effecting change.  In the examples passer-by gives both governments were dictatorships where the people had no means, other than rebellion, to effect change. 

I also have not heard specifically what the protesters want changed; I'd bet they don't know either.   It doesn't take any mental effort at all to complain about the way things are but  it's a lot of work to actually think about what it would take to make things better.   

I am of the opinion that the recent events in Greece are the work of immature underachievers rather than the sober citizenry.   I wouldn't be at all surprised if it turns out that the instigators of these events were being influenced and financed by foreign entities.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

You could be right, of course, but don't forget that England viewed America as very much a fringe group of reactionaries that needed to be put in their place...and then we had the Revolutionary War .  I'm not saying that the methods used are right, but perhaps peaceful avenues were explored and denied to some of these people and they've gone beyond the point of reason, which is where revolution finds the seeds to grow.  All sorts of bad things happen during riots and revolutions (look at all the public executions during the French Revolution, some of the people executed were just patsies, or all the pointless looting during the LA Riots) but these events are almost always a symptom of a greater sickness in the country, and in the government in particular.

[passer-by]

I thought autolabelled "pacifists" and "progresist" people would agree with me, but apparently they find "buts" when the people who starts their revolts has ideas they sympathy with... It' s funny. Patethically funny, but funny.

I don't recall saying I approve riots. I only said that sometimes waiting for the elections can be disastrous. I also think I said that violence brings bitterness and vendeta and that I don't like it.

I fail to see where I said I approve riots, really.

@Rick

what two governements? I didn't mention governments.

[RickJ]

what two governments? I didn't mention governments.

Passer-by, please accept my apology.   I mistakenly attributed to you, the examples cited by Zooty (i.e. The Spanish and French revolutions).   

I'm not saying that the methods used are right, but perhaps peaceful avenues were explored and denied to some of these people ...

When you say "denied" do you mean they failed to persuade a majority of elected representatives and/or the population to their point of view?  If so then this is not a reason for violence, which I believe is Nacho's point.  This is how small children, who have not yet mastered their emotional impulses nor learned self control,  behave when they don't get their way. 

I know very little, if anything at all, about Greek politics and I think this is true for most of us giving opinions here.  I hope our friends from Greece are not offended or annoyed at our ignorance.    Perhaps someone knowledgeable, such as Nikolas, could give us a brief overview.

[Nikolas]

Actually passer-by and Dualnames (and me) are all Greek!

Greeks (and I hope passer-by will agree with me) are rather quick to act (most usually to a strike). As I said earlier, to a reply towards passer-by, there's been strikes for a long time now, for various reasons, including the whole underground system, for days and days, TV, etc. Do keep in mind that, regardless of the death of the 15 year old, there was, yet another, strike, from EVERYONE (stores, the underground, tv stations, etc), a couple of days ago.

It's not exactly that the current government did something bad and everyone revolted. I do think that it's the universal economic situation that also had a hand into this! Things were quite bad, went even further wrong, and you also have a universal crisis to deal with. Quite easy to get frustrated and kick all around you. It's not a single problem gathering, it's myriads of little problems growing and seeing no solution after 5-6 years of the same government.

Nacho, the idea, in general, is that at some point you get fed up and try different things. This can happen when the usual methods do not work! The luxury of waiting for 4 years cannot be present the whole time.

Just for the shake of being clear: I do not approve of violence, nor I wore a helmet to be at the centre of Athens. My nose is too big to wear a helmet to begin with! I find that random acts of violence do not gain anything, apart from showing the desperation and frustration of people. (And I do understand the whys, or at least I'm trying to, which should be the primary job of the government actually).

[Nacho]

Again, I don' t understand "you", and by "you" I mean the people who say "No to riots, no to violence, "but".

There are no buts. Only 2 years for the next votings. Go to the people who has lost their business, jobs, houses, cars, and tell them so.

Again, there is this "hyperlegitimacy of the left" thing. If this very thing was happening with extreme right rioters in spite of extreme left, everybody would complain. Me included.

I can stop, and think: "Mmy political choices do not interfere to say that something is wrong when something is wrong".

Now examine yourself and try to answer the same question.

[Nikolas]

There are no buts.

This is a major point. You admit youself that you do NOT wish to even try to understand: "There are no buts".

I'm saying (and passer-by, if I understand correctly) that we do not agree, but we do see the reasoning behind the actions.

In law, reasoning exists, so do different circumstances, as well as different sentences for the same crime, for different people. You dissagree with all these, right?

I would, probably, complain much louder, had my house/store/car burned down by the 'anarchists', but you do see me complaining, don't you? I did start the thread didn't I? I didn't applaud the 'anarchists', but made a more social conversation, which I would imagine has to do with the universal economical situation far more than just an incident in Greece, etc...

[Nacho]

But I never argued about the reasonings. I allways argued about the actions.

And no... There are no "buts" for that actions. Do you agree with me that there are no "buts" for that actions?

[Nikolas]

You are standing too much into sematics. A person saying "I don't agree, but I do realise there could be a reason behind it", (to which I still might not agree) does not indicate a "but", as you seem to imply it. It means that actions are lead by reasoning and problems unsolved, no?

I'm a fan of actually trying to find what's wrong and fixing it rather than dealing with the actions (which of course shuold be the first course of action in this case, as it IS unacceptable for all the stores,hotels,banks,cars to be burned down, no matter what!)

NO MATTER WHAT!

I still will be looking to reason into why this is happening and thus find a way to correct the problem, as I think it should be happening with such issues on the background (cause as I said the security of the people does come first).

[Nacho]

If this succeds in any degree (Anticipating the elections, dimissions, etc...) it will be a sad day. It will mean that "burn 1000 cars" and people will listen to you.

Your "attempt to find what's wrong and fixing it rather than dealing with the actions" is a step in that direction.

Sad.

I basically refuse to listen, yes. It' s something I allways did when someone uses violence to make its message more audible.

You don' t realise, but you are "putting lines". I don' t.

ME: "Violence? Sorry, I don' t want to listen to your reasons, SHUT UP, MAAahaaannahahahhhhahaaaaaaaAAAaAaa!!! I Am not listening to you!!!"

YOU: "Violence? Oh I dissaprove it! Now, let' s see what the violents mean..."

[Tuomas]

So I'm confused...

The government has all the right to act uncivilized, as it obviously has so far, but the people have no right to act uncivilized? I thought the government was supposed to represent the public. The whole nation, not to divide it in two, that's more or less provoking classism, and certainly not good for democracy.

What if the government decided to swap to totalitarism. Change the constitution so, that they would never have to stand down? They'd still be justified because they were chosen by the people?

[Nacho]

Is the government doing that?

Yes or No, please.

On the other hand, your "Government can act uncivilised, so, the people can as well" is funny.... Funny because when the opposite happens (Example:"People can kill people. I think the government should have the power to kill the killers") you start to shout, complain, and argue that government has to behave differently. If course you tell that if we are discussing about death penalty in Texas... Of course if we change "Texas" by "Cuba" and a "guy who slaughtered a family" for "A capitalist that was against revolution", then it' s ok. You can even buy a shirt of Alberto Korda' s pic of guy who ordered that. How nice...

How inmature. how incongruent and how sad.

(*) (I am not for penalthy death, just stating how easilly you can contradict yourself deppending if you agree what which is happening or not.)

So, Toumas... Do you think that riots, burning enterprises, burn cars is ok? Cool. I don' t.

[passer-by]

@Nacho for specific questions and @all for generic topic

I am not leftist. Or anarchist. Or "antisystem".  I didn't go to the streets. Not even as a student. On the opposite, I did the cowardly thing: I fled the country when I realised we'd have the same type of government for another four years. Not much of a rioter, am I? I don't think violence is the solution. I believe rioters will only cause more violence. I also believe that police violence was the excuse, not the cause of the riots. The cause is in everyday struggling to make the ends meet. Or even some laws that people think hurt their dignity.

I think I have stated the above multiple times in this thread. It pains me to see my country like this and to watch and hear and read all the biased BS of several foreign news agencies of several countries because of that. But we, at least, solve our problems within our own country. Well, most of the time

Now, apart from justification or not of the riots, there is the very big and important aspect of this issue: current local politics. You feel for the people who saw their property stolen,  smashed and burnt, but you maybe don't know that people's property and businesses, health system, education and so on were already on the verge of chaos anyway.

Again, this is a continuous situation than in my opinion, only education and a change of mentality can solve. When the greeks will realise that selling your vote for a job in the public sector or for *disappearance* of your illegal parking ticket is not an honourable thing to do, then maybe the situation will get better.

I am waiting for this crisis to end with no further damage. I am hoping people will find a less loud and more efficient way to protest. A civilised' way, if you like. But, although I find premature elections always damage the economy and the flow of things like health and education, I wouldn't mind having some politicians think twice before submitting laws for personal profit.

[Tuomas]

Is the government doing that?

Yes or No, please.

Yes, obviously, ask anyone, or study the posts above.

So, Toumas... Do you think that riots, burning enterprises, burn cars is ok? Cool. I don' t.

Me neither.

[Nacho]

Ok... apparently now nobody agrees with the riots.

Hurraaaaaaay!

Then... why are you arguing with me since I' ve never said anything about Costas' decissions but about the riots?

I honestly think that some people here like to argue.  I do, sometimes, but not now, and to prove that I won't post anything else here till the 22nd. 

Oh, Passer-by! I consider far way more brave to leave the country than cover your face and get out to the street and throw a molotov, so, don't worry...