I hate Peta, the way they treat animals and people is wrong.

[KANDYMAN-IAC]

Everyone needs to read this. I don't like their political ideology. And this is just awful.

www.workingpitbull.com/images/petakilling.jpg

http://www.thisistrue.com/peta.html

http://www.petakillsanimals.com/petaTrial2.cfm

http://www.thisistrue.com/petareply.html

http://uncooperativeblogger.com/2005/06/18/peta-employees-arrested-for-animal-cruelty/

[Radiant]

Or, for a less biased view of things,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETA


(anything that has to label itself "this is true", in my experience, is usually wild speculation)

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

PETA's philosophy is "animals are not ours to eat, wear, experiment on, or use for entertainment."

It's funny, isn't it? I agree on experiment, but isn't eating other animals and playing with them (and using any resource to keep warm in cool weather) is simple animal nature, both human and non-human? We have a responsability, as a conscious species, to watch out for what we do, but we are still animals, with the same insticts, urges and nature (no, we "the good people" don't kill. Directly. But there's a hunter side to a lot of professions).

Funny, they seem to rather agree with this:

"Animal liberationists do not separate out the human animal, so there is no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They're all mammals."

I agree. We're animals too.

Heh, I'll stop. My second thread in less than 5 minutes with a bone to pick that could get out of hand, this time a bone related to vegetarianism.

Regarding the original topic, I'm not sure I believe it. People and organizations like this can be so extreme in their views that PETA mistreating animals would be as unlikely as Greenpeace being behind the deflorestation of the rainforest.

[ManicMatt]

Yeah, the last time I was on a forum and they started moaning about vegetarians I got a warning for flaming, something I've never done before.

They were all making stupid and childish comments taking the piss of of vegetarians and vegans, calling them pasty skinny wimps and the like.

On the forum:

Person: "Vegetarians who think it's wrong to kill animals for meat are morons, IMO."
Me: "That's fine, I think you're a moron, IMO."

I get a warning..

Moderator: "No personal attacks."
Me: "Ah I see, so I can't attack personally, but it's okay to attack a group of people! My bad."

[PsychicHeart]

Alas, Rui, i agree with your opinion. Fair enough, experimenting on animals is wrong, unfair and just plain mean, as in missile pointed directly at Amnesty International wrong, unfair, and mean.
But, as harsh as it is, we're humans. Some of us eat meat. Some of us wear fur. Some of us use animals in circuses. Some of us don't shower too often.
With the exception of the last one, i doubt there is there are many people over the age of 16 who has never either eaten meat, worn fur or been to a circus or an entertainment event that uses animals.
The point is, you cannot fight a majority, and as long as PETA keep acting like jerks, i don't think anything will be solved.
Well, i'm sleep deprived.
G'night.

[Nacho]

There are some things we must take into consideration... If we are animals, we can DO what ANIMALS DO, and some animals EAT some OTHER ANIMALS. Lions eat gazelles, Crocs eat nyús, or whatever they're called. Our digestive system is preppaired to be omnivorous, so... we can eat meat, IMO.

Minks... They are small, and lovely. And they're used to make expensive overcoats. The ecologists started to say that having farms of aminals to sacrifice them was horrible. Result: Minks are now close to extintion.

Bulls. Apparently bullfights are cruel and bloody... IMO they're also boring. But if you know a bit of our culture you'll know that this animals live like KINGS for 4 years (good natural grass to eat, free live in the pasture, sport, and cows), and their horrible final just lasts 10 minutes (each bullfight must least less that 15 minutes, if not, the bullfight ends), whereas the bulls and cows not destined for bullfights live as slaves, and have a horrible final too, that lasts even days, that includes a horrible transport and a disgusting end by electrocution. In addition if you show you are a good bull in the plaza, you are indulted, cured, and destined to stud for the rest of your live.

My point. Don't allow the ultra complaining attitude of the radical ecologists current take you. there are indeed a lot of things we can do for improving the live of the animals, but some arguments are, not just pointless, but also contraproductive. Be wise, investigate, and take your decissions.

[Nikolas]

I don't know...

I always thought that the middle way, the golden ration, the common sense would be that:

If you need to eat, kill animals, if you need to dress kill animals, if you need to make a fortune, take care of animals.

Now after a while things have changed and the 'kill to dress' is totally wrong, cause obviously there are 1000s of ways to do that without killing (although still we use animals to do that. But giving a shave to a sheep, does not seem like a big deal really...)

About food, I know that vegetarians have wasted a lot of time and money into finding ways to feed themselves with some alternatives than food, but SOYA MILK? I mean it just sucks! It's a fact that cows produced 3/4 more milk than their children will need. Why not use that 3/4? You may not want to eat a T-bone-steak, ok, but milk, eggs, and all that stuff...

As always things are getting ridiculous.

And of course I can see how cruel sometimes the 'factories' (yes I used this word on purpose), for chickens, or sheeps or whatever, can be and I have to say that because we can get 0,02$ for every sheep that we cruely kill, does not justify for me that situation, but still I don't think that we shuold be offering TV and BB (not Big Brother) to every sheep just because we feel that we've done wrong to them.

It is this thing that ALWAYS gets out of hand:

You claim that you believe (in) something (example->) I believe that we shouldn't be cruel to animals! Which on it's own is a perfectly understandable sentence. Don't buy a puppy and leave it on the street after you're bored, don't take cat's and torture them to death and so on... But then someone comes to you and says :" HEY! You don't want cruelty and yet you drink cows milk! Do you know how cruel these people are to cows in order to take their milk?". And so, in response to stay lowal and coherent, you add this little paragraph "I also object to milking cows". Then the next one comes along :" Do you know how much suffering chicken are getting when being 'forced' to make more eggs?", and thus you add a second sentese... and this thing never ends... And in the begining all you wanted was to say that :" People, don't abandon your pets, it's a shame. Think about it! If you wont' be keeping your pet for long, don't buy it! Take your kids to the zoo instead!".

And btw, how cruel is a lion killing a baby zebra? Pretty cruel in human standards... Heck are we, humans, not animals?!?

BS bigtime! BS I tell thee!

(And I think that my last posts have taken a small turn... dunno... I'll analyse and let you know... :S)

[ManicMatt]

About food, I know that vegetarians have wasted a lot of time and money into finding ways to feed themselves with some alternatives than food, but SOYA MILK?

In their eyes, and indeed my eyes, it is not a waste of money. Whatever costs you are talking about anyway. And I drink soya milk because it has proteins for my body. (and.. I drink this nice chilled creamy stuff, not that nasty dry section carton stuff) I still eat cheese and chocolate.

"I mean it just sucks! It's a fact that cows produced 3/4 more milk than their children will need. Why not use that 3/4?"

I'm guessing the reasoning here is because of the majority of cruel ways used in order to get said milk. So the vegetarians/vegans wouldn't want to drink something that had been extracted in such a way.

"As always things are getting ridiculous."

Whatever.

"But then someone comes to you and says :" HEY! You don't want cruelty and yet you drink cows milk! Do you know how cruel these people are to cows in order to take their milk?"

In my experience I get more people telling me I SHOULD eat meat, more often than i've ever told someone they shouldn't. In fact, I never force my ideals down anyone's throat. Only in circumstances like this, or if someone asks me why I don't eat at McDonald's for example. And as you can see, I still haven't told you not to eat meat.

"And btw, how cruel is a lion killing a baby zebra? Pretty cruel in human standards... Heck are we, humans, not animals?!?"

Not sure of your point here, but we are animals to a degree, albeit with higher intelligence and awareness, so those people who argue that we should eat meat because animals do it are suggesting they contain the same amount of intelligence as the animals, are they not?  : "ooh look, that monkey just smeared his poo all over that window, and I shall do the same. Heck, I'm an animal too!" 

[Ali]

Our digestive system is preppaired to be omnivorous, so... we can eat meat, IMO.

That's a compelling argument, but the same logic could be used to justify cannibalism.

It is this thing that ALWAYS gets out of hand...

What you describe as something getting "out of hand" is the taking of an argument to its logical conclusion, which is crucial to rational investigation.

You're right about soya milk though!

[SSH]

So if you have your own chickens that you look after nicely and don't force to lay lots of eggs, it would be OK to eat those eggs, then?

Also, I was reading in this week's New Scientist that giving babies soya milk formula instead of cows milk formula is very bad for them. Of course human milk is better still...

And what's wrong with smearing poo on one's windows, eh? eh?

And can you wear leather if the cow involved died of natural causes. Also, my feet smell if I use non-leather shoes.

[ManicMatt]

So if you have your own chickens that you look after nicely and don't force to lay lots of eggs, it would be OK to eat those eggs, then?

Well it's better, anyway.

"Also, I was reading in this week's New Scientist that giving babies soya milk formula instead of cows milk formula is very bad for them. Of course human milk is better still..."

I'm more concerned in that aspect with Nestle encouraging the use of their powdered baby milk products in developing countries and causing deaths from malnutrition. Breastfeeding all the way..

"And what's wrong with smearing poo on one's windows, eh? eh?"

Do I have to answer that one?

"And can you wear leather if the cow involved died of natural causes. Also, my feet smell if I use non-leather shoes."

That's okay, but I'll still grose out about it. Non-leather shoes? Well that depends on the type of shoes now. If they were plastic, well then yeah, there's no air in them for your feet to breath. my shoes are made of the same kind of material as yacht sails. And my safety shoes. And my trainers are synthetic but not sure how, but they aint leather, and they look real cool. Even if they are meant for skateboarding.

[Toefur]

Also, I was reading in this week's New Scientist that giving babies soya milk formula...

Giving them an orange juice formula is probably not so good, either. Point is, it's not about whether it's breast milk, dairy milk, or soy milk, it's about what a newborn baby needs for good health and what are good sources for that.

Not breastfeeding is entirely absurd, imho.

I'm a vegan and I have to say that I have met few vegans who actually like PETA as an organisation; I certainly don't think they're much good for anything other than giving us a bed rep.

[strazer]

Yes, don't dismiss the whole idea because of some nutcases.

If we are animals, we can DO what ANIMALS DO, and some animals EAT some OTHER ANIMALS. Lions eat gazelles, Crocs eat nyús, or whatever they're called. Our digestive system is preppaired to be omnivorous, so... we can eat meat, IMO.

Sure, we may be animals in the biological sense, but we can think, have morals and ethics. We're human.
I CAN eat meat, but I have a choice, so I don't. The lion killing the zebra doesn't have a choice.

Now after a while things have changed and the 'kill to dress' is totally wrong, cause obviously there are 1000s of ways to do that without killing.

Agreed.

About food, I know that vegetarians have wasted a lot of time and money into finding ways to feed themselves with some alternatives than food, but SOYA MILK? I mean it just sucks!

I rather like it. It contains a lot of water which makes it taste fresher, less creamy than cow's milk.
And the fact that that comes from the glands of some farm animal disgusts me, to be honest.

But there are not proper alternatives for everything. While the first question should always be if you can't just do without, I have decided that I can't do without cheese (made from milk, I know). There's just nothing quite like it. And I love pizza.
Now, people always tell me I'm inconsequential. No meat, no milk, but I eat cheese? I'm a hypocrite.
They may be right, but that doesn't belittle everything else I (do not) do.
What do you do to reduce animal suffering? Why all-or-nothing? Start small.

It's a fact that cows produced 3/4 more milk than their children will need. Why not use that 3/4? You may not want to eat a T-bone-steak, ok, but milk, eggs, and all that stuff...

As you say, it's the industrial methods with total disregard for the well-being of the animals that drives most people to boycott it.
That includes breeding cows with udders so big that they can hardly walk anymore.

But then someone comes to you and says (...) Then the next one comes along (...) and this thing never ends...

So you just do nothing at all? That's hypocritical to me. (No offense!)

So if you have your own chickens that you look after nicely and don't force to lay lots of eggs, it would be OK to eat those eggs, then?

To me, yes. If you really think you can't do without.

Also, I was reading in this week's New Scientist that giving babies soya milk formula instead of cows milk formula is very bad for them. Of course human milk is better still...

Yes, I'm on the fence on this as well.
But there are always studies proving one thing or another.
While I think you could feed babies a balanced, but purely vegetarian diet, I would err on the side of caution and feed them a "normal" diet.

And can you wear leather if the cow involved died of natural causes. Also, my feet smell if I use non-leather shoes.

In my mind, yes. But since it doesn't say so on the label, I'd rather not condone leather at all.

[Nacho]

So, if I chose the option of eating meat, I don't have moral and/nor ethic?

[SSH]

Having looked it up, it seems that Organic certification for meat and dairy products means that the animals should have much better living conditions. Why are these then not acceptable?

[Radiant]

Sure, we may be animals in the biological sense, but we can think, have morals and ethics. We're human.
I CAN eat meat, but I have a choice, so I don't. The lion killing the zebra doesn't have a choice.

It's more of a gray area than you say; animals also think. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_intelligence for some background info.

Now, people always tell me I'm inconsequential. No meat, no milk, but I eat cheese? I'm a hypocrite.
They may be right, but that doesn't belittle everything else I (do not) do.

This does remind me of an old friend of mine who is vegetarian, but nevertheless eats hamburgers because he likes them. If you're going to play the ethics card, at least be consistent.


That said, I'm all in favor of freerange animals.

[ManicMatt]

So, if I chose the option of eating meat, I don't have moral and/nor ethic?

He never said/implied that.

[strazer]

So, if I chose the option of eating meat, I don't have moral and/nor ethic?

Of course you do. Please. :
What I meant is we can make decisions based on that. Animals not for all we know.

It's more of a gray area than you say; animals also think. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_intelligence for some background info.

We are smarter than they are. However you want to put it.

This does remind me of an old friend of mine who is vegetarian, but nevertheless eats hamburgers because he likes them. If you're going to play the ethics card, at least be consistent.

Why do I have to be consistent? So maybe I'm not a "vegetarian". But I still don't eat meat, drink milk or eat eggs. That's better than nothing, no?

Having looked it up, it seems that Organic certification for meat and dairy products means that the animals should have much better living conditions. Why are these then not acceptable?

I don't understand. Could you please word it differently?

Edit:

Ah, now I understand.

Better living conditions as opposed to what? It's still far from living naturally.
Cows only give milk when they have babies, just like humans. So they're impregnated constantly and their children then taken away from them. No living condition can change that. And they still get killed.

[MrColossal]

This is really my main beef with PETA:

PETA Senior Vice President MaryBeth Sweetland on her use of insulin, which was tested on animals:

"I'm an insulin-dependent diabetic. Twice a day I take synthetically manufactured insulin that still contains some animal products -- and I have no qualms about it ... I'm not going to take the chance of killing myself by not taking insulin. I don't see myself as a hypocrite. I need my life to fight for the rights of animals."
--Glamour, January 1990

[SSH]

Are you saying that diabetics shouldn't be animal rights campaigners? Since insulin-dependents usually get diabetes at birth or in childhood, you're basically forcing them never to form opinions on the whole subject in later life....