I hate Peta, the way they treat animals and people is wrong.

[Ali]

This is really my main beef with PETA:

In the context, "my main nut cutlet" would have been more diplomatic.

[Nikolas]

So you just do nothing at all? That's hypocritical to me. (No offense!)

Well the exact opposite actually.

Yuo want something, but in order not to be pointed out as hypocrite, you have to accept absolutely everything, or else...

Baby milk, from mothers is yummy! My sons told me! After a while of course we did give them powder milk, so... :-/ Still supposedely it's better than normal cows milk.

Maybe I'm not convinced that there are 1000s of alternatives is feeding, as there are in clothing (where we still use animals, and I do believe that the torturing is still there, but noone seems to say anything...) BTW, so the only fight is not to use furs, and other than that everything is ok, while in food we cannot touch anything?

As far as I know a 'true vegetarian' (who does not eat any animal products, including cheese, milk, eggs, meat (of course)), has to find alternative ways to keep their protein high, meaning they must carry out a very specific diet in order to stay healthy, if not also some supplements (like vitamins and stuff). This to me does not looks natural, where to just not wear fur, is as natural as it goes (plus the all synthetic stuff that everybody uses,. but still our wardrobes are full of animal byproducts)

[strazer]

Yuo want something, but in order not to be pointed out as hypocrite, you have to accept absolutely everything, or else...

What I mean is everybody loves animals and doesn't want them to suffer but nobody wants to do anything about it.
I freely admit that I don't do everything I could do. If that makes me a hypocrite and I can't call me vegetarian, fine. At least I do something.

This to me does not look natural

I think most people's diet today is unbalanced and unnatural. But yes, there's a conflict for vegans.
I like the taste of meat and if I didn't know an animal suffered and was killed for it, I would eat it. But I can't do that with a clear conscience.
So I've been vegetarian (it's shorter to write ) for 5 years now, had my blood tested, feel fine and am fine according to my doctor.

[ManicMatt]

As far as I know a 'true vegetarian' (who does not eat any animal products, including cheese, milk, eggs, meat (of course)

You mean a vegan. A vegetarian by definition eats/drinks dairy products.

[MrColossal]

Are you saying that diabetics shouldn't be animal rights campaigners? Since insulin-dependents usually get diabetes at birth or in childhood, you're basically forcing them never to form opinions on the whole subject in later life....

Sorry, let me clarify, I'm saying that she needs animal testing to live her life. She can not live without animal testing. There are people who can not live without running a hog farm or trapping and killing beavers for their pelts or etc etc. There is a difference in insulin and a wool sweater company but in my opinion it is a small one in many instances.

If your family runs a business that mistreats [by mistreats I mean in the PETA sense, can't even shear sheep as well as slaughter a cow] animals and that is how they have lived for years and years, they have a mortgage and a 4 kids in college, are they supposed to just turn their animals loose and find new jobs? Are they supposed to plant cotton and turn their sheep loose or plant soybeans or whatever and turn their cows loose? Even if they gradually worked towards phasing out their wool sweaters into cotton ones, man that's a huge undertaking requiring a complete overhaul of the entire business model, training new skill sets, new employees, maybe even moving to an area more suited for agriculture. Can family or small business afford to do this?

If you have a disease that is helped by animal tested products, are you supposed to not use them and take your chances while waiting for something non-animal tested to come along? According to Marybeth Sweetland of course not. Preserving her life is more important. So if she's more important than the animals it took to make the insulin but the families that depend on animals to live aren't more important... I get confused.

[Becky]

I eat meat.  It tastes good.  It's full of important iron and protein that I require.  I eat fish and dairy and eggs, the medication I take every single day probably was tested on animals.  I wear leather shoes.

The problem with PETA, and some other animal rights organisations, is that they do not see some sort of medium.  Though all the things I stated above seem very anti-animal rights, they must be put into a context.  I eat meat, but I try my damn hardest to eat free range organic meat from Britain.  I eat eggs, but I refuse on principle to eat any eggs that I know are not free range.  I am against animal testing for cosmetic purposes....but it's difficult when it comes to medical purposes.  When those recent human medical tests went horrifically wrong, people called for more testing on animals.  It's a sad and unfortunately necessary thing.  No humans are going to want to be mass tested on either.

We should be helping to fight the fur trade, ban battery chicken farms and increase the amount of organic and free range farming of livestock.  We should be striving for stricter controls on the import of meat that does not live up to the required welfare standards of our nations.  We should be funding animal shelters and conservation programmes.

I do not see an issue with taking the life of an animal to feed another animal (as we are).  I do see an issue with the cruelty in which we treat other animals to fulfil that process.

[SSH]

Does insulin (still) require ongoing animal testing in its everyday synthesis?

[MrColossal]

from her quote:

"I'm an insulin-dependent diabetic. Twice a day I take synthetically manufactured insulin that still contains some animal products -- and I have no qualms about it ... I'm not going to take the chance of killing myself by not taking insulin. I don't see myself as a hypocrite. I need my life to fight for the rights of animals."

Even so, no animal testing, no Marybeth Sweetwater. Does she thank animal testing for saving her life? Does she need animal testing to save her life? Yes. Will she protest animal testing by not taking insulin? No. Should we condemn other people to die by diseases that we may be able to prevent or treat with animal testing in the future? Marybeth says yes.

[Nacho]

Strazer... You quoted this refering to me...

This does remind me of an old friend of mine who is vegetarian, but nevertheless eats hamburgers because he likes them. If you're going to play the ethics card, at least be consistent.

I think Yabb has made a bug or something, because I haven't written that! ^_^

About the "we are not animals, because we can think, we have moral and ethics"... Forget my previous post putting words in your lips... I was playing the fool...

But the real argument is that Peta (which means "joint" in Spanish...) says that we must respect animals becase WE ARE animals, therefore we are not better than them, ergo, we can't kill them. BUT, if you say that we are indeed animals, but different in a degree since we have moral and ethics, you are totally destroying their argument.

That's why I metioned crocs and lions.

I ask for a sensible ecologism... Tigers are being killed because chinese think the powder made of its bones cures reuma. Rich men in the west countries use hands of gorillas as ashtrais. Indian eat penises of rhinos because they think that increases its sexual power. Japs eat whales... Man, all that animals are in real danger, and its deaths don't have any sense. Let's fight against that. If the first animal that ecologists say is "don't eat chicken", "normal" people won't have other choice than join the opposite part...

[LimpingFish]

Recently in Britain a group of animal protestors had a problem with a Guinea Pig breeding farm, where Guinea Pigs were bred and supplied to animal testing laboratories.

Fair enough, I thought, they're trying to help the poor little Guniea Pigs and all.

What happened next, tho, really was abhorrent.

The animal rights group stole the corpse of the mother of one of the farm owners, from her grave, and held it to ransom, claiming they would return it if the farm was closed down.

It was.

Now I'm all for animal rights, and abuse perpetuated on animals sickens me, but I would personally punch anyone in the face who, in this case or similar, took the side of the protestors or justified this kind of action.

Bunch of lowlife f*cks.

[strazer]

Wow, that's low.

I think Yabb has made a bug or something, because I haven't written that! ^_^

Yep, sorry, that was me messing up.

About the "we are not animals, because we can think, we have moral and ethics"... Forget my previous post putting words in your lips... I was playing the fool...

I'm glad.

But the real argument is that Peta (which means "joint" in Spanish...) says that we must respect animals becase WE ARE animals, therefore we are not better than them, ergo, we can't kill them. BUT, if you say that we are indeed animals, but different in a degree since we have moral and ethics, you are totally destroying their argument.

I'm speaking for myself, not PETA.
I do think we are superior to animals, and that's exactly the reason we should respect and care for them.

[ManicMatt]

Limping fish: Hmm.. if I was an activist I wouldn't go stealing dead bodies.. no. I imagine I'd just burn the place down to the ground when no one is there, and of course making sure to rescue all the animals out of there first.

[Nikolas]

Limp: Yup I remember that. Lowlife scumbag sh*ts indeed!

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I'd like to sic Von Glower on PETA. Who's with me?

[Becky]

The guinea pig incident was not PETA.  It was the Animal Rights Militia.

[LimpingFish]

Yes, and if I remember correctly PETA condemned the action.

I imagine I'd just burn the place down to the ground when no one is there, and of course making sure to rescue all the animals out of there first.

Destroying somebodies livelihood in the process? I believe the farm in question was a family run business, which is why the corpse snatching incident had so much impact. What about the people they employed to run the farm? If they were guilty of animal abuse, then drag them through the courts and let the law handle them.

To clarify my stance, I eat animals. Pigs, sheep, assorted poultry. I feel no guilt. They were raised for that purpose, hopefully in humane circumstances, and, well, they taste good.

Farming animals for consumption and the abuse of animals are two completely different things.

[Toefur]

They were raised for that purpose.

This question has always seemed to me to be a fancy version of "But we want to do these things, so what is wrong with that?" The idea that an act, by virtue of an intention of ours, can be exonerated morally is totally illogical.

But worse than that, however, is the fact that such a belief is a dangerous position to take because it can enable one to justify some practices that are universally condemned. To see how this is so, consider the following restatement of the basis of the question:
"Suffering can be excused so long as we breed them for the purpose." Now, cannot an analogous argument be used to defend a group of slave holders who breed and enslave humans and justify it by saying "but they're bred to be our workers"? Could not the Nazis defend their murder of the Jews by saying "but we rounded them up to be killed"?

[Toefur]

As far as I know a 'true vegetarian' (who does not eat any animal products, including cheese, milk, eggs, meat (of course)), has to find alternative ways to keep their protein high, meaning they must carry out a very specific diet in order to stay healthy, if not also some supplements (like vitamins and stuff). This to me does not looks natural, where to just not wear fur, is as natural as it goes (plus the all synthetic stuff that everybody uses,. but still our wardrobes are full of animal byproducts)

It is not difficult for one to find adequate, or more than adequate, non-animal sources of protein, not to mention all other essential vitamins and minerals. There is not a food in existence that contains no protein whatsoever.

It can seem intimidating at first, but I find that largely comes from ignorance of foods and nutritional values of food. I didn't know a thing about food before I became vegan, but now I know which foods have which nutrients, and how much of them I have. When speaking of health, it makes sense to me that all people, regardless of diet, should know what nutrients their body needs, and where to get these nutrients from.

If one knows this sort of information, then it is easy to live healthily on any diet. My diet takes no careful planning, no special thinking, no expert workarounds, I just eat normal foods... except for meat, dairy, etc.

[LimpingFish]

"Suffering can be excused so long as we breed them for the purpose."

I never said animals who are farmed for consumption should suffer. Quite the opposite in fact. The two don't go hand in hand. Animals bred for consumption must still be treated in a humane way. The only problem you can have with this is that the animal dies at the end of the process.

Now, cannot an analogous argument be used to defend a group of slave holders who breed and enslave humans and justify it by saying "but they're bred to be our workers"? Could not the Nazis defend their murder of the Jews by saying "but we rounded them up to be killed"?

No, that is quite possibly the most ludicrous analogy you could proffer. Nazis rounded up and murdered Jews in an attempt to obliterate the race from the face of the earth. I doubt the meat industry has a similar agenda against cows.

[Ali]

Toefur wasn't saying that the acts were analogous, but that the arguments he gave in defence of them were comparable with yours.