Rape Jokes

[Snarky]

Snarky opined that rape is not about power but about sex. This is almost certainly untrue.

I see nothing in your post that would support such a categorical statement.

The needs of a rapist are not about sex. Indeed, rapists show no more inclination towards sex than other males of a similar age.
The point is that a rapist cannot get their sexual release from consensual sex. It just doesn't do it for them.

First, if this were true, it would tend to support the idea that rapists typically rape in order to achieve sexual release, as I argued is probable. From there you'd have to make an argument that even if they do it to get off, the fact that "regular sex" doesn't do it for them means it's not "really" about sex. But that's a tricky argument, because lots of people have all kinds of kinks that they can't fully satisfy by plain vanilla intercourse (even just something like roleplay or particular sex acts, for example), and so by the same logic you'd classify a big part of the universe of sexual experience and sexual needs as "not about sex." (Of course, people are complicated, so a whole bunch of issues and psychological drivers are tangled up together, but as I mentioned before, again that's true of sex in every context. A teenager anxious to lose her virginity since all of her friends already have? A guy having a mid-life crisis and taking a mistress? Rebound sex after a breakup? A couple who feel like having a baby?)

Second, via the Wikipedia link 304 posted, we get the statement "Most rapists do not have a preference for rape over consensual sex" with a whole bunch of citations, and "Marshall et al. (1991) stated that there are no significant differences between the arousal patterns of male rapists and other males." So your claim appears to be factually incorrect.

Think about it. There are lots of ways to get sex. Most people can walk out the door and get consensual sex before the night is over if they wanted to. Even paying a prostitute is preferable to raping someone and possibly going to prison for it. There *must* be a drive that pushes a guy to rape over other sexual releases.

It's possible that non-premeditated rape might be attributable to a desire to want to have sex. For instance if a girl passes out and the guy carries on anyway but does anyone here really think that that would get them off if it was purely about sex?

Sorry but Snarky's argument does not hold water.

This presumes that people are perfectly rational creatures when it comes to sex, weighing the pros and cons of various options with utilitarian precision. It also assumes that everyone shares your value system (e.g. the idea of universal human rights and dignity) and would concede that what they do (which they themselves in many cases might not consider rape; they might e.g. consider that they were "entitled" to sex in the situation) is worse than the other options, such as the shame (and cost) of soliciting a prostitute. On the contrary, it would seem clear that in some sub-cultures (usually those dominated by young men, like frats, criminal gangs, sports teams, the military, etc.) sexual assault is normalized or even encouraged, and the perpetrators wouldn't have the barriers you assume against using such methods to obtain sex.

Your argument also only really applies to habitual rapists and premeditated rapes, with no evidence that these are the most common. (In fact, the "lurking in the bushes" attack rape is relatively rare compared to other forms. Most rapes are committed in the homes of the perpetrator or the victim, and in most cases the victim knows the rapist.) Alcohol is a factor in the majority of rapes, which suggests to me that they are impulse decisions and the perpetrators are maybe not thinking all that clearly. I find it perfectly plausible that in the moment, rape seems to the rapist like a good way to obtain sex.

You could certainly argue that rapists have lower barriers against using coercion (either violence or threats) to obtain sex, or of obtaining sex regardless of the consent of the partner. That assertion is almost true by definition. But that doesn't make power the motivation for their crimes.

To me, the claim that rape "is not about sex, but about power" sounds a lot like if someone were to claim "murderers don't kill because there's something in it for them, they kill because they like the feeling of power that killing gives them." Uh, sometimes, sure, but that's probably the exception more than the rule.

[ThreeOhFour]

My comments in no way exclude the possibility of it being an extreme manifestation of paraphilia. Indeed a lot of paraphilias arise from the desire to exert power or other, non-sexual, sources.

Aye, but it also involves sexual gratification in the definitions I know of it.

"a desire for power" is a pretty broad pigeonhole. One might call it a rack of pigeon holes.

I see your point, but saying "People only murder for fun" is a rack of pigeonholes too, because there are a lot of ways to have fun.

While it's true that motivations vary, that doesnt mean generalising a mental condition to be a defacto bad thing.

But you haven't shown any research or *anything* that would support the objective statement you're trying to make. A quick search of the internet (a terrible, biased source for anything, but so is everything else) seems to show that some people think it is about one, some about the other, some about both. Except the sites that go MYTH: Sandwiches are nice. FACT: Sandwiches are in fact SHIT!

MYTH: You can get away with your claims simply because your avatar is the king of cats.

FACT: Your king cat avatar is not persuasive at all!

* ThreeOhFour shakes his fist

[Calin Leafshade]

Snarky makes some excellent points. I concede.

[ddq]

I was probably being overly general in my statement as well. There's a wide array of motivations behind many varied kinds of rape. Trying to comprehensively categorize all rapists under a single psychological profile is sort of silly. Further, some crimes legally labeled as "rape" lack the dominance or power and are merely the result of lack of consent, for example, being below the age of consent or boning under the influence of alcohol. Instances like these, I feel the word "rape" may be too strong, but it depends on the particular event in question. The point is that rape is often more than just wanting to have sex with someone but they won't let you.

[Snarky]

Cool. Thanks guys.

If the question boils down to "do rapists prefer it if the person they have sex with doesn't consent?" Well, yes, that is probably true for some, but I'm still inclined to believe that the majority are just callously indifferent to the other person's feelings in the matter, and if the person did/could consent they'd be OK with that too.

To return to the original subject of the thread: Jokes thrive on taboos, so the sense that something is not quite OK to make light of is part of what makes it funny. We need that frisson to give the jokes an edge. Unless they're completely toothless, there's always the risk someone will be hurt, disgusted or offended. So I don't think we should push to make jokes on sensitive subjects socially accepted in all situations. (There's an episode of the rather brilliant comedy show Girls where the main character makes a rape joke during a job interview. She doesn't get the job.)

At the same time, I think in principle no topic should be off-topic for comedy. But jokes carry values and messages about those topics as well, and those can be abhorrent. Some jokes can make it clear that the person telling them is an asshole who holds disgusting attitudes (though of course in the context of a joke, not everything said should be taken at face value), and they deserve to be called on that just like anyone else.

[Ali]

I know this is a serious thread, but it's a testament to the maturity of the forums that no one has drawn attention to this sentence:

I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.

[Ponch]

I know this is a serious thread, but it's a testament to the maturity of the forums that no one has drawn attention to this sentence:

I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.

Shh! We're trying to be sophisticated!  (masturbation joke! girlish giggle)

[monkey0506]

Hey guys. This thread isn't even about rape. It's about jokes. I'm no moderator, but I mean...let's keep it on-topic here people.

[Crimson Wizard]

Yeah, I am still waiting for more examples of rape jokes. So far I've only seen one posted by stu. 

[Calin Leafshade]

If the question boils down to "do rapists prefer it if the person they have sex with doesn't consent?" Well, yes, that is probably true for some, but I'm still inclined to believe that the majority are just callously indifferent to the other person's feelings in the matter, and if the person did/could consent they'd be OK with that too.

Well the reason i didn't pursue the argument is that although the scientific community is general on my side in terms of consensus, it seems that their evidence is fairly thin.
In truth, the evidence is not great on either side but the more recent evidence does seem to favour your position.

Also, I simply dont know enough about psychology to parse the studies in the same way i can with other subjects.

In sum, i think you're probably right but dont know enough about the subject to make a sensible call either way.

Do we have any psychologists in the house?

[Crimson Wizard]

Do we have any psychologists in the house?

Any rapists maybe?

[monkey0506]

Does anybody have Antoine Dodson's phone number? I'm sure he could point out a few.

[kconan]

I know this is a serious thread, but it's a testament to the maturity of the forums that no one has drawn attention to this sentence:

I can count the number of comedians who can pull it off on one hand.

  I was so wrapped up in the topic that it didn't even register.  Its true though, most comedians use two hands.

[Stupot]

My wife was gang-raped by a troupe of mime artists.
They performed unspeakable acts on her.

For me this joke is exactly the kind of joke I was talking about in my earlier post. It's less about the actual act of rape and more about the wordplay. And I love me some wordplay.  The fact that it's about rape just give it that naughty edge that separates those of us with a sense of humour from the PC brigade.

[Ali]

That made me smile but there's no need for it to be rape, and there's no need for it to happen to your wife. "I went to a gangbang with a troupe of mime artists... They performed unspeakable acts on me." works just the same and would make me warm to the teller more because they cast themselves as the one who is humiliated.

It's less edgy, but if you're using rape as a condiment to spice things up I think that's a bit cheap.

[ddq]

That really seems to be the issue oftentimes, Ali, no more apparent than in the Penny Arcade "dickwolves" thing. The joke would have had precisely the same meaning if the wording was "fucked to sleep by the dickwolves". It's still rape, the only difference is the phrasing.

[Andail]

I'm really really tired of comedy that's offensive for offensive's sake, because it's been done to death by now. Back when most societies were so prude and victorian it became a problem in itself, using comedy to provoke had a logical place. But now it's more often a shortcut around writing clever jokes, which is much harder.

What really bugs me is that comedians that use offensive material equate criticism with intolerance. "Can't you take a joke, you puritan, haha, I guess this is too avant-garde for you!" "No, I'm not in the least bit offended or embarrassed, it's just that you suck at being funny."
So these comedians become untouchable, as you will be dismissed as a reactionary if you dare criticize them.

Like when people say they like Family Guy because it's so in your face with crossing all those borders and you go "Oh really, you enjoy that even after the millionth time Peter hits his daughter? It's still edgy? Still breaking the norms?"

Gah. Provoke the narrow-minded and bigoted, don't provoke victims. Like Eddie Izzard, he provokes by just being himself in drag, but his comedy is super intelligent and relevant.

[Stupot]

That made me smile but there's no need for it to be rape, and there's no need for it to happen to your wife. "I went to a gangbang with a troupe of mime artists... They performed unspeakable acts on me." works just the same and would make me warm to the teller more because they cast themselves as the one who is humiliated.

It's less edgy, but if you're using rape as a condiment to spice things up I think that's a bit cheap.

Yeah, you're right. The use of 'rape' really only serves to make it that much more edgy, and I think I prefer your version, but it is at least a good joke.  As the teller, I could ditch the 'rape' and make it about 'me', if I'm looking to be warmed to by the hearer.  But it also depends on the tellers opinion of his audience as much as the other way around.

I'm really really tired of comedy that's offensive for offensive's sake, because it's been done to death by now.

Like Frankie Boyle.  I'm not sure how well-known he is outside of the UK.  For a short while he was my favourite comedian.  He really pushed the boundaries and got away with some pretty dark stuff. But after a while it became way too predictable, and he has been reduced to a very limited vocabulary of 'Diana', 'World Trade Centre', 'HIV', and of course 'Rape'. To be honest though, it's probably his audience's fault, including mine, because these were the jokes that got the most laughs at first.  He clearly found out what got the most laughs and was encouraged. People were just waiting for his next offensive joke, and they started laughing every time he so much as mentioned 'HIV', even if it wasnt that funny, because they merely assumed it must be funny.  I follow his Twitter, and he occasionally comes out with some funny stuff, but nine times out of ten I just cringe, because he's clearly just joking about rape (and other offensive staples) for it's own sake and not in the context of a good joke, which is important to me if you call yourself a comedian.

These are just a handful from the past couple of weeks:

Man, I'd love to see Odd Future, but I'm too scared of flying. Can someone slip me daterape drugs me like on the A Team?

Everyone's going on about 50 Shades of Grey, so I'm just saying that in my book a bunch of people get raped by a lion, and a Monkey Hitler.

My book out in paperback. I retire from showbiz but am lured back when people who stop being famous start getting raped.

According to Wikipedia, Portsmouth does the league tables in one thing. Sadly, it's rape.

Not funny at all...

[ddq]

Eddie Izzard is my all-time favorite stand up comedian and Family Guy is my all-time least favorite TV show. And even devoid of context, those Frankie Boyle jokes seemed utterly unfunny.

[Ali]

Stewart Lee on Frankie Boyle