It's been 25 years..

[bspeers]

Just some education for ya:

Nudity :

A Christian Perspective : http://www.religioustolerance.org/nu_bibl.htm

Examples (kids welcolme):

1: Lennon and Yoko
2: Adam and Eve
3: David
4: A young naked Jesus


Porn (adults only):

1. Fun times
2. More Fun Times
3. One more for good measure

I couldn't find any more porn than that, sorry.

Notice that there can be less nudity in Porn than there is in Christian art depicting the saviour and various biblical characters in a highly religious and reverent way.  It's the lust depicted that makes it erotica or Porn, not the nudity, and John and Yoko were very loving and hardly lustful. Their nudity depicts an idea of the pre-fall ignorance of Adam and Eve, and like other art above, it was done long after Adam and Eve were gone.

Also, God hates those who cast judgement, and Jesus was definately opposed to war.  To be in favour of war is to disrespect the word of Jesus, to love the destruction of God's creations and thus to spit in the face of God:

Matthew 26:52 (New International Version)

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Luke 6:27 (New International Version)
27"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

A word against those who accept the authority of rulers (John and Yoko opposed rulers, which is clear in their lyrics):

Ephesians 6:12 (New International Version)
"12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms."

From Sermon on the Mount:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

also:     "For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly
    Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their
    trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Also: This

In other words, forgive and forget John and Yoko, judge them not lest you be judged.

There is so much more--why would any Christian prefer that men kill the creations of God rather than be nude, or even make love within the confines of Marriage?  Remember that John and Yoko depicted VIRGINS--so even that is too sexy for this particular cover.

If you still hate these two for Christian reasons, read these three articles:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/barnwell/barnwell26.html
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/007/34.86.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Lennon#.22More_popular_than_Jesus.22_controversy

[rharpe]

Ummm, I think you need to check that quote. I think he said that about someone who would betray him, not someone who "scandalizes children" whatever that means...  or maybe you equate lennon with Judas?

Sorry, even my quote was mixed up.     Correction

[Squinky]

I couldn't find any more porn than that, sorry.

I have a hard time believing that.....

[Nacho]

I've been carefully to post that there is JUST a percentage of religious people who becomes annoyingly deffensive about it. And I've said that we can't blame religion, or the people who uses religion propperly, because of the people who uses it in an appropiate way.

The main argue seems to be that this things happens in all the communities, not just in the religious ones. I agree, but my "feeling" is that in religious communities the percentage of "zealots" is higer. I can't really be sure if this feeling is correct, so I can't really argue against anyone saying the opposite....

Just wanted to remark that I am not against religions or against people (99.9 %) who uses it propperly.

[pslocum]

On second thought, nein.

[DGMacphee]

I'm not shitting on his grave! It's like what Christ said, "It would be better if you were not born then to scandalize a child." He has definitely scandalized many, even after his death. Many of you are so desensitized, you wouldn't even know it if you were.

It's ironic that you believe in and quote someone who was blamed for spreading immorality, was murdered and then held up as a martyr.


I call shenanigans on this!!

[rharpe]

It's ironic that you believe in and quote someone who was blamed for spreading immorality, was murdered and then held up as a martyr.


I call shenanigans on this!!

Actually, the romans tried to strip Christ from all of his garments, but could not. This was a way for them to humiliate Him. And he is not a martyr, but Our Savior!

[DGMacphee]

Actually, the romans tried to strip Christ from all of his garments, but could not. This was a way for them to humiliate Him.

No, I meant how he was arrested on the orders of The Sanhedrin and Joseph Caiaphas for blasphemy. Blasphemy counts as immorality, right?

And he is not a martyr, but Our Savior!

No, no, you're thinking of Flash Gordon.

[esper]

Look at all the people....

I don't see what all the fuss is about. So John Lennon was a bad influence. Who cares? So am I. So are you. So is everybody. You realize that when Jesus was around, he ate with the sinners, publicans, and harlots, and told the religious crowd they were a bunch of assclowns, right? He said "You jokers are attending mass, and giving tithes, and following the Law and the Prophets... I don't give a fetid pair of dingo's kidneys if you do all that if you aren't treating people right."

How is nudity pornography? If he was knocking her up, then yes, I would say that was pornography. By saying you or God have a problem with that cover is the same as saying that God created something bad. In reality, the Bible says that nothing is inherently evil... What is evil is evil because we make it so. Therefore, nudity is not bad... It's the response to that nudity. So it wasn't John and Yoko who were the sinful ones... If you have a problem with it, IT'S YOU! "Great peace have they which love the Lord, and nothing shall offend them..." The Bible might say to cover your nakedness, and that to look on someone's nakedness is a shame... It ALSO says that a woman is to cover her face, because that is a shame as well, and even though the Bible says a "woman's hair is her glory," THAT TOO needs to be covered, because otherwise it is a shame. So why don't you go slap your wife and tell her to get crackin' with the hats? Do you know any girls that wear their hair in braids? Or that wear earrings, or silver? Or that eat meat and drink milk in one sitting? You know what the Bible says about that, don't you??? I know there is an argument to that, but my point is, why is there an argument to these supposedly "petty" things, but not to nudity? What makes them different? Why are you so afraid of one while you completely allow the others?

Furthermore, along those same lines, there is no such thing as a bad influence. There is, however, a call for bad influences. To go back to the conversation about Jack Thompson... People make video games like GTA because PEOPLE WANT THEM, not because they are trying to corrupt people! Again, if John Lennon is a bad influence, it's because people already have a preexistant state of badness that they want influenced, and hop on the Lennon bandwagon (however it was again that he's a bad influence. You still never seemed to explain that one)...

If you want a bad influence, look at the Church. The Crusades were not a Holy War by any means. The ongoing conflict in Ireland between the Protestants and the Catholics is another thing. How about the Witch Trials? What about the Inquisition (nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!)? What about Roman martyrdom of Protestants during the first couple centuries of the church? Ever read Foxe's Book of Christian Martyrs? What about all the diddling of wee laddies that's been going on here lately, and the covering up and protection of the priests involved by the papacy? Oh yeah, great influences. Yet you have a problem with a man that preferred to have sex over killing people. And why? Because you think the Bible is against people who are immoral?

I think it's interesting to note that the person Jesus said had more faith than anyone else he'd seen in all of Jerusalem was a homosexual (look it up in the Greek... the word "servant" doesn't mean "butler..."). Also, didn't Jesus say he'd rather leave behind 99 religious people to save one person who was a sinner? Where do you see Jesus condemning the woman at the well? Or the woman taken in idolatry? Or Zacchaeus, the theiving tax collector? Or the thief and murderer on the cross next to him? On the other hand, how many times did Jesus call the religious crowd "Vipers," "Asps," "a Generation of serpents???"

I'm sorry. I prolly just angered all the religious AND nonreligious people in this forum. Dammit... But it needed to be said. I, like Farlander, don't have a problem with religions or people, but I have a problem with people who lack logic. Examine the following syllogism:

1. The Church is founded on the Bible.

2. The Bible says that all men are sinners. "There is none righteous, no not one." "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." "They are alltogether gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable." "All your righteousness is as filthy rags." However, the pope, a man, claims that he is the mouthpiece of God on this earth. Just because he said so, apparently, makes it true, and people begin following a man who says everything that comes out of his mouth is ex cathedra.

3. The Church is therefore not following the book it is supposedly founded on.

Isn't that illogical, and hypocritical? You know what (I think I've used this example before, so bear with me)... I'm going to start a religion based on the Lord of the Rings. My first action as founder of said religion is to elevate myself to the position of Dark Lord, and I shall name myself Samwise Gamgee. You don't think my followers will see the discrepancy there, do you?

I have said it before, I appreciate the fact that people have the strength to stand by their beliefs, no matter what those beliefs might be. However, when you start being illogical about it, you lose me. You can believe that the world is made of cheese... I know differently, but you can believe it if you want to. However, when you look in the Book of Cheese and it says the world is made of Bleu Cheese, but you insist it is made of sharp cheddar, then I have a problem with you. YOUR holy book, that YOU say is the very word of God, says one thing, and you believe another just because generations of imperfect human men have said that is the way it is... THAT is why I was smart enough to drop religion like the sack of hot shite it is years ago. John Lennon was a good guy. Alot better than Pope Leo, who wrote the Enchiridion, a book of ceremonial magick for the use of the Jesuits that involves the invocation of demons. Alot better than that one Catholic there... what was his name... Oh yeah, Adolph Hitler... Alot better than the present pope, Joey Ratz, who was a member of youth for Hitler and whom John Paul II made head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (the 'modern' version of the Holy Office of the Inquisition). At least John Lennon knew what he believed without having to be told.

**Esper gets ready to become the least popular person in the forums, bravely saving Kinoko from the same fate**

EDIT: And what do you mean, they couldn't strip him? Is that based on the Bible, or some painting that some guy made that shows Jesus wearing a loincloth just because he didn't feel right drawing the Divine Weiner? Tradition strikes again...

Matthew 27:27-31
Ã,  "Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers. And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe. And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head. And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him (he's naked again), and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him. "

Later on, while he's still alive, the soldiers part his garments amongst them... It was, after all, Roman custom to strip people completely naked who were being crucified.

[Kinoko]

o_O

I go away for a one day holiday and yet another thread has become a debate about religion. Is this every thread on the internet's ultimate fate?

Well, although I said I'd stay away, I just want to say I'm sorry for getting everyone angry and upon further reflection, I totally misread rharpe's initial post. I didn't even know he was religious! *hides her mountain of porn* (Seriously rharpe, don't go -anywhere- near my website ^_^)

But I don't care. As long as we can agree about the fundamentals of adventure gaming, that's all that matters to me.

[Nikolas]

...*hides her mountain of porn* (Seriously rharpe, don't go -anywhere- near my website ^_^)

Now, Kinoko ,which website would that be? I've been looking for some porn in the interent but couldn't find any apart from the three pictures bspeers showed us. Can you help me? I'm desperate... .

BTW Where did you go?

Seriously:

What I see frequently in these forums is that a lot of threads become religious discussions. I follow espers mind pretty closely and I do understand what he's saying (and where he's coming from, as far as I can tell), but I also can follow rharpes mind here too.

A person is intitled to have opinion! And he is intitled to say that opinion. And although things have been misunderstood here with rharped, concerning Lennon, I find that he actually said nothing wrong. He believes in something and he has based his life in his believes (his family also, of course). I respect that, but at the same time, I see everybody questioning that. I'm not sure I enjoy that.

[esper]

Of course, you're entitled to your own opinions. Everybody is. But when your opinions begin to involve other people (such as, "that person is wrong," or "that person is evil," or "that person is a bad influence") then there's where the problem comes in. Like I said in my post, you can believe that the earth is made of cheese. Far be it from me to try to dissuade you. However, if you said people who ate cheese were destroying something holy, and you got on a forum and said "People who eat cheese are of ::cue reverb:: SATAN!!!!" then you're out of line. If you got on and said "The world is made of cheese," then I might say "Thank you for that info, but I don't believe you're correct." However, if you were to say "The Big Bopper ate a lot of cheese in his lifetime, and so I'm glad he got in that plane crash so he could stop corrupting people's minds with all that cheeseeating," I would say, "Hey, cut that out. He might have eaten cheese, but you eat too many frickin' avocados. The world is made of avocados, don't you know?" And then I might also be tempted to say "And by the way, your very own Book of Cheese states that Cheezus had no tolerance for people who bothered the cheese eating populace, even though he never ate any himself."

[Kinoko]

You can't find porn? o_o ...Really? I'm more than a little surprised.

Do you mean you can't find free porn? Even that's not too hard. Try typing "sex" into google.

Re: The website, I mean my own art website. which isn't what I'd classify as porn but it's basically just buxom young women with very little clothing. Mind you, it's been dead for at least a year, probably two. http://kinoko.futariba.com if you're interested (I haven't looked at it myself in about a year).

Re: Where I went... nowhere interesting. A couple of towns over to a meeting at a "resort" (it wasn't what I'd call a resort but it was better than I expected) for the day.

esper: Cheezus Genius!

[Vince Twelve]

I think rharpe is a bad person because he thinks other people are bad people.

[Helm]

I think rharpe is a bad person because I have it on good authority that he eats little children

[rharpe]

Thanks for telling me I'm a "bad person", makes me feel like I'm doing something right.

Why is it that I'm so bad? I state an opinion or belief that is contrary to everyone else and I'm instantly Hitler! I say pornography/nudity is wrong and everyone is on the defensive. Why are you people here? This is not a porn site, it's a game development site. I'm not the one that is out of place, you all are. If you want your porn and nudity... why come here?

I feel like I'm getting under some of your skins... sorry that wasn't my intention.

Why are you all so afraid of me. Because I stand my ground against all of you that oppose my beliefs? Whatever happened to right and wrong? Were none of you taught this? Do any of you even know right from wrong... sometimes I wonder.

Helm: I don't eat children...unless they just started putting them into canned soups in the US?

Kinoko: You stood by me from the start of this thread... thank you. I know you don't have the same beliefs, but you were also ridiculed for your thoughts on Lennon as well... I'm sorry I placed you in a line of fire.

Vince Twelve: I don't think any of you are bad persons. If I thought that, I wouldn't be here. Many of you are confused, but not bad. AGS has a great community! I'm happy to be apart of it.

esper: As usual, you amaze me by the mountains of information you can type in one post, wow! Read This, I think you'll like it.

Nikolas: Thanks for following me. And at least giving me a chance to explain what I believe. In many ways, people here are very bias to religion... especially the Catholic faith. They feel it is holding back progression... restricts freedom... and ultimately brain-washes a person... it does not. They fear what they can't understand. I'm not a theologian, scholar, or priest, so sometimes my explanations do more harm than good... I'm sorry about that.

DGMacphee: Between you and Helm, I can never take either one of you serious. Helm, I can expect this behavior... He's been in many other boards that I use to frequent... He knows me well for starting/fueling religous battles within forums... especially regarding impurity.

Farlander: I don't see much, or remember much concerning your views about me and my beliefs. I'm sure you side with the others, but at least your more on the neutral side.

Squinky: Yet another person I find hard to talk with without cracking a smile. I can never tell if your serious or not... sorry, you always seem to have wise-crack remarks.

SSH: You tend to keep me on my toes. Last time I "tried" to quote something from the Bible, you showed the correct quote. Sometimes I wonder if you believe the same things as myself? You tend to side with the others, but in all...I wonder?

bspeers: Links to porn sites... come on! People can go out and find them on their own, they don't need your help. Your post was a good example of scandal. Think about it: some kid comes in maybe 10 or 12 and reads your post. Then out of curiosity he sees the links you posted and clicks on them...wham! What the he...! His mom walks into his room while he staring at the images and unplugs his computer then takes it out of his room...Now AGS has one less community member to post games, comments, etc. (Ok, so he saw the "(Adults Only)" disclaimer...you're still partially reponsible.) Thanks for not hotlinking to the image, at least you gave the user a choice to click on it or not.

Mr. Hyde: You don't say much to me concerning religious matters. Maybe you are the only one that feels you don't have to post what you believe? Or maybe you already know arguing religion is an uphill battle? 

Andail: There are times you don't understand my posts... I try to explain the best I can. But when everyone attacks you at once, sometimes it's difficult to clear the smoke, so to say.

big brother: You are an artist, to define nudity, porography, and impurity is very difficult. Some artists draw these things, not to have sexual delight, but for more of a creative license. The problem is, some artists don't realize their art, photos, etc. are not appreciated they way the artist intended them to be.
Which could lead to misinterpretation and scandal. Btw, your art rocks!

MrColossal: I always find you on the offensive with me. Not sure why. You seem to always be the first to lead the attack.

modgeulator: Nice fix on the album cover... would have better if you would have made it a link though. :]

Largo: I'm really sorry I took the thread and made it into a religous debate... that was never my intention. I'm sure you deeply feel connected somehow with Lennon, which brought forth this thread. I do not hate Lennon as almost everyone believes, but I do not like his music or him as a person... That's all I wanted to say. My apologies... but look at the bright side, we kept the post at the top!

I'm not mad at anyone here... this is not a rant either. I'm open to any attack or comment that you may have. If you all could really know me, I'm best described as a very laid-back, humorous goof, that loves computers. When I go out, (as seldom that would be,) I get pretty crazy. (Being married and having a child attributes to this at times.) All-in-all I'm pretty happy-go-lucky... hopefully I didn't offend anyone.

[Helm]

Thanks for telling me I'm a "bad person", makes me feel like I'm doing something right.

Thanks for saying you think you're doing something right based on the most hollow reactionism. It pretty much defeats your arguments better than anything I'm going to say below does. Sometimes when people dissagree en masse with you, it's not because you're getting under their skin. It's just because you opinions are widely believed to be dangerous, strange or just plain ignorant.

Why is it that I'm so bad?

Because you eat children.

I say pornography/nudity is wrong and everyone is on the defensive.

pornography is not slash nudity. The fact that you choose to disregard or are otherwise incapable of seeing the various shades of a topic such as this paints you like the fundamentalist you probably are. Your usage of RIGHT and WRONG, specifically your RIGHT and everybody else's WRONG further amplifies this impression.

Why are you people here? This is not a porn site,

Well, fringe-porn... American Goat Society focuses on bestiality, I guess

If you want your porn and nudity... why come here?

People want a lot of things in their lives. This is not about this forum, it's about you saying Lennon was a BAAAD person because he took a picture of himself with his wife in the nude. We are discussing this, not looking for our porn. You're diverting the argument.

I feel like I'm getting under some of your skins... sorry that wasn't my intention.

Ignorance really itches, yes.

Why are you all so afraid of me. Because I stand my ground against all of you that oppose my beliefs?

Yes, let's have a war. Let's not discuss things and reach some sort of sensible conclusion, a middle ground if you will. Stand your ground against all of us that oppose your beliefs, in clear black and white.

Whatever happened to right and wrong? Were none of you taught this? Do any of you even know right from wrong... sometimes I wonder.

Thankfully, (most of us) were taught of the infinite shades that exist between two disparate ethical positions, and from this comes a humility that doesn't allow us to reach for our LOL YOU'RE WRONG I'M RIGHT LOL card so often, if at all. Thankfully, we don't easily come to the conclusion that what we're doing is based on safe moral foundation just because some book told us what to do. Hey. 

Helm: I don't eat children...unless they just started putting them into canned soups in the US?

You eat children. God told me.

Vince Twelve: I don't think any of you are bad persons. If I thought that, I wouldn't be here. Many of you are confused, but not bad. AGS has a great community! I'm happy to be apart of it.

Oh

DGMacphee: Between you and Helm, I can never take either one of you serious. Helm, I can expect this behavior... He's been in many other boards that I use to frequent... He knows me well for starting/fueling religous battles within forums... especially regarding impurity.

Yes I was a moderator on pixelation when you approached people to preach about the evils of communism and I was the one that asked you to stop doing that then. But this is a general board where OT is the point, so by all means, nobody's stopping you from expounding on your beliefs to your heart's content. In fact, I strongly encourage you to do so, so people that might align themselves with you, even in the slightest, know exactly what you're made of, politically and morally.

bspeers: Links to porn sites... come on! People can go out and find them on their own, they don't need your help. Your post was a good example of scandal.

What

Think about it: some kid comes in maybe 10 or 12 and reads your post. Then out of curiosity he sees the links you posted and clicks on them...wham! What the he...! His mom walks into his room while he staring at the images and unplugs his computer then takes it out of his room...Now AGS has one less community member to post games, comments, etc. (Ok, so he saw the "(Adults Only)" disclaimer...you're still partially reponsible.) Thanks for not hotlinking to the image, at least you gave the user a choice to click on it or not.

Nobody that is 12 should be around here anyway. If they are 16 and they click on the links... it was their choice. Of course their parents might admonish them for the choice they made, but that's after the fact. Actions have consequences and you can only learn that from taking action. From preemptively shielding a child from the concept of a choice, you are creating weak-willed individuals ill-equipped to face reality, instead living in their dream bubble where everything is either RIGHT or WRONG and god tells them what to do about scary naked genitalia and Lennon records.

[Andail]

Why are you all so afraid of me. Because I stand my ground against all of you that oppose my beliefs? Whatever happened to right and wrong? Were none of you taught this? Do any of you even know right from wrong... sometimes I wonder.

I'm not affraid of you, I just think you're an obstinate fundamentalist.

To break down this thread:
* Two people (group A) can't stop expressing how they hate a certain person, and how they're happy he's dead. This is something they repeat plenty of times, along with grave and excessive insults.
* A few other people (group B) tell them that such a behaviour is considered rude and not really appropriate. They ask them to stop defiling a thread which is obviously a tribute to aforementioned late person.
* Group A, for some reason, starts accusing group B for being immoral and not knowing the notion of right or wrong
* This is so silly that you can only laugh at it. Rharpe, you're being so narrow-minded and self-righteous that I regret I ever took you seriously.

[Nikolas]

I think that this is so interesting and so out of hand.

What started out as a tribute thread for Lennon (which is like 15-20 posts in this thread and we're in the 4th page going on the 5th), has changed into an explanation for rharpe about his beliefes (once again) and references to everybody. And answers from Helm and Andail which could be regarded as offensive. Actually Helm , I don't know, if I can take it seriously. And only the fact that God told him that rharpe eats children is enough. If it was an inside information I would've agreed. If it was a tip off yes. But God told you? Come on, God has other plans. Fortunately rharpe always cracks a smile with your posts. And I do to! This post was hilarious!

But Andail:

* This is so silly that you can only laugh at it. Rharpe, you're being so narrow-minded and self-righteous that I regret I ever took you seriously.

This could be a little insulting.

Actually both people in group A stoped expressing their hatret towards Lennon(s) music but what we have here is something else. We are constantly trying to make rharpe answer for something he did/say that we think is wrong. And there is no way to make this for happening. He has a different belief system than most of us, and no forum will ever change that.

What I'm actually trying to say is that the last post is a "reaction post" from rharpe. I don't think he would've posted ordinarily...

Anyway if I can be regarded as impartial I will also try to break down what I think:

1. Group A said some wrong things. Half of the group A stopped, but the other half is forced into continuing. And goes further into the wrong direction imo.
2. Group B was offended by Group A and had a right to do so, as I was offended but after that just took it too far, and tried to enlighten group A.

Neither group will ever learn. (<-This makes me look a little above ya all! hahahahahaha)

Just an idea: Maybe start a sticky thread with a subject line: "Religious debates", and everytime a religious debate comes on our way throw it in there, so anyone interested could discuss freely without offences to the rest of the community.

Now, on a sidenote: It's been 25 years and a couple of days after Lennon died. Does this make a difference? If not and anyway if yes, can someone tell me what happened to the killer? Was he convicted to death? Life sentence?

[MrColossal]

Nikolas: The killer is still in jail, his parole being denied repeatedly.

"MrColossal: I always find you on the offensive with me. Not sure why. You seem to always be the first to lead the attack."

Can you please tell me when this happened before? Honestly, I tried searching the forums with search but it only showed me five posts I've made in gen gen so I think it's a little weird and I just don't remember.

also, I like how Bspeers made many interesting and well thought out arguements and you ignore them to focus on 3 links. If John and Yoko being nude is so bad, explain religious iconography. There, same question, no links to porn.

You said them being nude was bad enough to corrupt people for 25 years, so naked paintings that are 600 years old must be really bad.

and then this important question: "why would any Christian prefer that men kill the creations of God rather than be nude, or even make love within the confines of Marriage? "