It's been 25 years..

[esper]

 :

Rharpe, I'm not attacking you. I'm not REALLY attacking your beliefs. What I'm attacking is the fact that you don't seem to make any sense. When you come into a thread that is supposed to be a tribute to John Lennon and make it a religious debate, it's your own damn fault when people jump on you. Contrary to your opinion, it isn't because you're sticking up for God. If you really WERE sticking up for God, then maybe I would have your back. And then, being obstinate and saying when people attack you that you feel like you must be doing something right... I guess that means Flukeblake (no offense intended, little bro) was really doing something right whenever people jumped on him.

And thanks for the link. I read it in it's entirety. I was going to prepare a rebuttal, since almost everything I read on there was based on what people say about the Bible rather than what it actually says for itself. But I won't bother. I'll just use that as a further argument. Why do you have to run to what other people have told you? Why can't you follow the exhortation of Scripture to "Be ye always ready to give an answer to any man that asketh thee a reason of the hope that is in thee with meekness and fear?" or "Study to shew thyself approved, a workman of God that needeth not to be ashamed?" Or follow the example of the Berean church where the Bible says in Acts "Now these (the Bereans) were more noble than those at Thessalonica, for they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so?"

I'm not shitting on his grave!

Didn't that link you gave me say something in the second commandment about using swear words? Oh noes. If the Bible is right when it says that if you have offended in one point of the law, then you are guilty in all points, then you officially have been naked with Yoko Ono. And have robbed banks. And have had wild monkey sex with a large Nordic man named Sven. So leave John alone.

And it's all fine and dandy to sit back and say you're winning. But why don't you answer any of the things any of us have said, rather than just giving generalizations? BSpeers posted a VERY informational link (not t3h pr0n, even though that was a little TOO much information...). Andail said some interesting things, and so did Mr. Colossal. I quoted the Bible. YOU quoted men. How can you say you base your beliefs on the Bible, but when someone quotes it in a way you don't like you hole up with a link from the Catholic Let Us Tell You How To Think Foundation?

Think logically. Most people don't believe in the Bible. Alot of people don't even believe that the historical parts of it are accurate. Whether or not the Bible is true or fictitious is not what is being called on the carpet here. What is being said is, is it right for someone who claims to believe the Bible to say what you are saying. If the question was, "Is it okay to kill someone?" You could say, "No. The Bible commands us not to kill." Then, we could say either "The Bible is true, and I agree," or, "The Bible is not true, and I don't agree, but you probably shouldn't kill anybody, since your holy book tells you not to."

The question is not "Is what you are saying correct." It is not "Is the Bible true." It is, "Should someone who believes the way that you do have made the comment about John Lennon that he did?" No one is REALLY arguing religion. We are arguing whether or not what you said even makes sense according to your own beliefs. I have shown, using ONLY Bible verses and ideas that I could easily look up for you or quote, that no, it doesn't make sense for you to have said what you said. You have responded in turn something like this: "I don't care that the book I hold as my authority says it. Some guy in a robe told me it was true, so it is." I think everyone can agree, whether or not they believe the Bible is true, that if the Bible says what I have quoted it as saying (which, by the way, it does), then your arguments are, by your own belief system, illogical. Yet you persist, because a frocked old man with a white collar and a rosary gave you a website to look at that says otherwise.

Q "Should someone have said what you said about John Lennon that claims to believe the Bible?"

A "I believe the Bible, and no, based on the verses that Esper gave, it's obvious they shouldn't."
                                                             or
A "I don't believe the Bible, but based on the verses that Esper gave, it's obvious they shouldn't."

Both sides should technically agree with me. You don't. Why not just burn your damn Bible? It appears to be useless to you anyway. Oh wait, that's right, in 1229 AD the Bible was placed on the Catholic Forbidden Books list and not taken off until a century ago..

At this point in time, people might be wondering what the hell I am. Am I some Protestant trying to practice what the preacher-man was yelling at me in tent revival meeting? Am I an atheist that hates all religions and religionists? Am I the re-reincarnation of Jesus?

I was going to be a priest. I had enough seminary to have a doctorate in theology. However, because I had my own ideas and thought for myself, I was kicked out of seminary on charges of witchcraft. Then, I tried a Baptist college, thinking the opposite of Catholicism (Protestantism) might be what I was looking for. Guess what? The same goddamned thing happened. Just because I thought for myself and asked the wrong questions to the wrong professor. So if anyone has the right to say "I must be doing something right," based on your arguments, it must be me...

[CoffeeBob]

Well, it's great to see that a thread made as a tribute to a person whom I like because of him making what in my opinion is good music, turn out into a disaster of a thread about something I dislike, christianity.
Seriously, so what if John and Yoko commited a (according to some people) 'mistake' by posing nude on an album-cover. It was probably intended to be art, not pornography. And think of all those christian paintings made through the years that has nudity in them, is nudity allright when it's, for example, painted in the roof of a godforsaken church?
Since we're being open with opinions here, I can tell everyone that I hate everything that can be associated with the bible, christianty makes me fucking sick. I might be overreacting now, but I do know for sure that christianity is not that perfect.
Sorry to whomever finds this post insulting, but I'm just tired of all this god-bullshit.

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

...any reason for this hatred towards all of christianity?

And think of all those christian paintings made through the years that has nudity in them

That was precisely the point most of the people were saying...

I hate everything that can be associated with the bible, christianty makes me fucking sick.

Any particular reason you hate a large portion of the world's people?

godforsaken church

Now, that one's just plain funny.

[modgeulator]

The bad influence John Lennon has had on people for the last 25 years is nothing on the bad influence Jesus has had on people for the last 2000. 

PS. I wish Mark Chapman had shot Paul instead... or the Pope. Shooting the Pope would be pretty cool.

[CoffeeBob]

The bad influence John Lennon has had on people for the last 25 years is nothing on the bad influence Jesus has had on people for the last 2000.Ã, 

*applauds*

[esper]

Well, technically, Jesus wasn't the bad influence. Almost every other world religion will say that Jesus was a spiffy guy, or a prophet, or an incarnation of the Buddha... Most atheists will point out that Jesus, although not really the son of God as he claimed, taught some cool stuff. The only problem was that Christians never listened to him.

And that has been my point throughout...

Plus, I think you'll find that John Lennon thought the same way.

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

Plus, I think you'll find that John Lennon thought the same way.

If you mean he thought the same way as jesus, that's impossible to know for sure.  It depends on translation differences and interpretation.  If not, then sorry, that was entirely useless...

[Nacho]

Now, what you've been blaming to "group B" (throw trash against something, knowing that people who likes that something is going to read the trash you're throwing) is what you are doing. Don't over react.

Religions are not compulsery bad. Sure, they can make people go and kill abortive doctors, but this people was insane and should have done something nasty even if religion never existed... Blaming the religions for the zealots is like blaming video-games for violence in the youth. It is fashioned too blame religion. The cruzades, the killing of native indians, and now this DonBroownishy tendency too see conspirations everywhere.

But if you look closer you'll realise that cruzades were an economical fact, and religion was an excuse. Indians should have been killed anyway, but some missionaries deffensed the indians till the end (Garcilaso de la Vega, Fray Bartolomé de las Casas...) Religion was a real shelter for culture in the dark years of the middle age... Lot of bad things, sure, but some good ones.

Religion is a tool... You can use it propperly. You can use it unpropperly. But do not blame the use some people give to it to the tool. It shold be very unfair, IMO.

[Pet Terry]

I think we once agreed not to have any religious debates here so I'm not going to bother taking part in that...

...but I hope John Lennon has rest in peace during these 25 years and will keep it up in the future, too. My knowledge about the Beatles isn't very good, but I do like some of their songs.

[Nikolas]

I think we once agreed not to have any religious debates here so I'm not going to bother taking part in that...

I didn't know that. I'll try to back it up the best I can.

A little musical info about The Beatles: They were revolutionary. From every aspect. They actually introduced minor chords in English music. No kidding. A minor chord was rarely seen in Brittish music but The Beatles made it happen. They had phychedelia. They had drugs. They had music knowledge. They knew contemporary music. They had personality. They had messages in their songs (and not pornographic ones, but messages about love, caring, peace, some drugs (Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds :LCD). I don't have any record of them, but I know a lot of songs, I play in the piano a lot of songs, and if we define classic as something that withstands time we can honestly say that The Beatles have beaten time. Which does apply to a lot of bands but not in the extend of the Beatles. (<-and this is because I like Pantera... But still the universall acceptance of The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The King and Nikolas Sideris is undenied!!!!!

[esper]

Just had to say this. I have spent this entire thread arguing against the Christian. Now, let me turn around and do the opposite. I don't claim to be a Christian, or an atheist, or a Buddhist, or a Satanist, or a Wiccan, or an agnostic, or a Hare Krishna, or a Muslim... etc... As such, there is no standard to hold me up to. Rharpe can't randomly speak his mind, because, like I said in a past post, he has the Bible as his guide, and if he strays from it, he can be argued into a corner and broken.

I have no such trappings.

Most logical, intelligent, atheistic people will say "I have logical, intelligent reasons why I'm an atheist. I think Christianity is wrong, along with all the other world religions." Although I am not an atheist, I can say this is where I am. "Christianity" has been the cause of some of the most atrocious horrors in history. I already mentioned the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.. An intelligent, informed person who has nothing to hide from or to fear can stand up and say "Christianity and the Bible are false," and then leave it alone because it bears no importance on their lives. I have some very good friends who are Wiccans, that when I was stupid enough to be trying to become a priest supported me all the way, even though I was becoming part of a religion that states "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."

However, it takes an immature, insecure imbecile to say "Christianity and the Bible make me fucking sick." To me, this sounds like Mommy and Daddy shoved a bit too much religion down somebody's throat as a kid. The same way they say "I hate school because they make me do homework and the teachers are in charge of me," and "I hate my parents because they make me go to school and church." You don't like it because it represents someone else trying to be an authority in your life. I can come up with a hundred and one logical arguments against religion. Can you?

No man has authority over me unless I allow it (a guy's gotta make money somehow...). I don't like religion, but I don't feel the need to erupt at it, because I am not threatened by it. By the way, did you mention Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism, or Paganism, or Rastafarianism? Does it make you sick that people used to believe in Odin, or Zeus, or Baal, or Amon-Ra? Does it bother you at all that some people believe in aliens, or ghosts, or even believe that the Great Old Ones of H.P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos are real? (funny story... Cthulhu and Dagon ARE mentioned in the Bible).

And I also feel the need to back myself up by saying I haven't once engaged in religious argument. I have engaged in logical arguments against religious arguments, which require using religious terminology, examples, and sources, and I have taken up against both sides not because I am religiously opposed to either side, but because both sides were being illogical. I am not involved in this. ::sneaks away::

EDIT ::sneaks back:: whose responsible for all this, anyway? Somebody set up us the bomb.

[CoffeeBob]

All right, I over reacted and posted in a slight immature way which I shouldn't have done, since I didn't act the minimum age on this board. I apologise to whomever find my previous post insulting, it's just that christians who think they're perfect just because they believe in what people have been believing the past 2000 years make me sick. But christians who don't act like heroes I can live with.

[modgeulator]

I was just shit-stirring. Look at the smiley -> 

Jesus was like a totally awesome guy I'm sure.

[Pumaman]

Since we're being open with opinions here, I can tell everyone that I hate everything that can be associated with the bible, christianty makes me fucking sick. I might be overreacting now, but I do know for sure that christianity is not that perfect.
Sorry to whomever finds this post insulting, but I'm just tired of all this god-bullshit.

Sorry, but that's well out of order. You may not be religious but many people are, and insulting posts like that can only stir up tension. In a way people seem to get away with it against Christianity in a way that they don't against other religions; if you said "Islam makes me fucking sick" you'd probably be locked up for racial hatred.

Anyway, you've apologised now so that's fine, I just wanted to make clear where the line is.

[CoffeeBob]

Yeah, I really went overboard. Apologies once again for my immature behaviour, but some things just make me annoyed and I just want to express my anger in any way possible, in this case by writing.

Maybe I should've made a general tribute thread. There are after all alot of other artists of different kinds who died too early. I could name an example, but only singers pop into my head. But, take Freddie Mercury for example, he composed and wrote some very good pieces during his lifetime, which, unfortunately, wasn't very long.

[vict0r]

After reading this whole, too long post, i went smiling. The whole thing is useless! rharpe keeps argumenting without any arguments and everyone else whacks his arguments away with a newspaper.


And by the way! Pornography never harmed any child who were brought up the right way! Sex isnt a bad thing, but the opposite, and the same goes for nudity! I am neither a nudist or a homosexual but i dont care if anyone chooses to show their genitails or to have sex with the same sex!

[Helm]

This isn't smart.

[Domino]

holy cow, BAN time

edit: i'm not against porn, just against it on the forums.

[Ghormak]

Sure, porn is not directly harmful, but some people might be viewing these forums from work, and no boss likes seeing his employees looking at porn when they should be working.

NSFW is a nice acronym.

[vict0r]

I think i made my point then Sorry if i disturbed anyone, if it was not of religious reason!