Let's get lucid

[shbaz]

This might not be completely on-topic, but last night as I was going to sleep I tried meditating. I didn't know whether I wanted to control my heartbeat or try ethereal projection. I actually ended up speeding up my hearbeat to an insane speed, and I could feel my heartbeat pounding so hard, with so much force, it felt like it was about to explode out of my chest.

I have no idea what that happened, but it eventually slowed down and all is good. It was weird, though.

Happened to me too, I'm not sure why that is, but my friend told me that it happens when you are asleep anyway. Apparently you're just too asleep to care. You were in the waking sleep I referred to earlier, it is said that after the stage you were in you can leave your body or have a very realistic controlled dream. It takes a lot of self control to get to that stage however, and I've never been able to do it.

[Pessi]

I'm surprised how many are familiar with lucid dreaming. I've tried it as well and at the time I read pretty much about lucid dreaming and OBEs and stuff like that.

To anyone that isn't familiar with lucid dreaming, I'd like to point out that one of the best parts of it is that everything feels as real as it does when you're awake. If your successful, that is. Sometimes not but I think it's a really important part of it which hasn't been pointed out yet, I think.

The things that I would've wanted to hear from the very beginning are ways to not get too excited (thus wake up) and how to prolong the lucid dream. As Duzz already pointed the good way to not get excited, I'll just tell how I was able to continue staying lucid when I thought I was drifting back to the passive state. I read from Stephen LaBerge's book that when you start losing lucidity, start spinning or falling back. The falling back technique worked well for me. The sensation is probably enough to keep you interested in that moment and thus stay active or something.

The reason I stopped trying lucid dreaming is that it's pretty confusing sometimes. I mean, figuring when you're awake and when you're not, as the dreams can feel very real. For example, if you think you wake up and think "yeah, finally a lucid dream" and then you wake up again, and after perhaps several times you really get up. It's just pretty scary.

But it was definitely a nice experience and I will keep it in mind if I ever feel the need to overcome a subconscious fear or anything like that. When dreaming you're in close connection with your subconsciousness so by what I've read, it's possible to overcome fears and stuff through lucid dreaming.

Anyway, the other major reason for me not going on with lucid dreaming is that I like to pay more attention to living in real world. Basically, you can have great sensations when on computer, or watching a movie or a dream. But for me, it's important that the feeling is 'real' in that fashion. But that's just me and this might not apply to others at all. And I mean the not being able to do stuff awake when you can do it asleep part.

Nonetheless, a very fascinating subject. I was really surprised to see Mods bring this up. No offence inteded.

[Nacho]

Anyway, the other major reason for me not going on with lucid dreaming is that I like to pay more attention to living in real world. Basically, you can have great sensations when on computer, or watching a movie or a dream. But for me, it's important that the feeling is 'real' in that fashion. But that's just me and this might not apply to others at all. And I mean the not being able to do stuff awake when you can do it asleep part.

My experience says that for recognising that a dream is a dream (And then, make it "lucid") you must be very aware in the "awaken" time, because many times the dreams are located in real places with things "that seem to be out of tune".

That's why you must be very aware. That's why I like the periods when I can have that dreams... But I can understand Pessi's feelings, as dreams are something very personal and every person can experience them in different ways.

[rodekill]

I had a lucid dream once many years ago.
I did the traditional thing and went for a fly.
Haven't been able to do it again, despite doing some research on it and trying various techniques.
I used to know a guy who said he could almost always control his dreams.
I think the problem with that would be that real life would become overly boring and annoying.

On a note perhaps not so related, but interesting nontheless, has anyone found themselves jolted awake from a semi-conscious state with a very, VERY real feeling that they were falling? No dream or anything, just a sudden shock of waking up and feeling like you were falling. Happens to me pretty often, usually when I'm lying around on the couch watching tv or something similar. Not a pleasant experience.

[Pessi]

Haven't experienced that, Rodekill, but it sure is interesting. And unpleasant, I believe. I'm sure most of us have experienced that when asleep but when awake? :o

On the guy who could control his dreams most of the time, the book I was talking about claims the following:

"The claim is often made by yogis and other specialists in "inner states" that they are able to retain consciousness throughout the entire night, including during dreamless sleep. Wrote a twentieth-century Indian master, Sri Aurobindo Ghose, "... it is even possible to become wholly conscious in sleep and follow throughout from beginning to end or over large stretches the stages of our dream-experience."

I'm sure you didn't mean that great a control but as this is kind of related...

[Felipe]

On a note perhaps not so related, but interesting nontheless, has anyone found themselves jolted awake from a semi-conscious state with a very, VERY real feeling that they were falling? No dream or anything, just a sudden shock of waking up and feeling like you were falling. Happens to me pretty often, usually when I'm lying around on the couch watching tv or something similar. Not a pleasant experience.

I know EXACTLY what you're talking about.
It does happen to me quite often (usually during the first few minutes I go to sleep).
It's like "before you sleep, though you're sleeping already".
Err... lemme explain it better:
Let's say I go to bed, then close my eyes and start thinking about anything, then, when I realise, I'm falling from somewhere and wake up inmediatly! Then I say to my self: "Wow, was I dreaming already?" Cos you have a VERY real feeling that you're falling, and your heartbeats accelerate and sometimes I see I was sweating, though I had been in bed for just about 5 minutes...

Sorry if I couldn't be very clear - it's really hard to express those things (and even harder in another language )

Anyway, is that what happens to you, rode?

[m0ds]

Shawn, sometimes when I'm drifting off to sleep my mind will suddenly spring to thinking about falling off a bike, or getting hit by a car or something and my body will jolt violently for a split second, causing me to wake up again. I usually have a chuckle afterwards tho because it feels so surreal. Is that what you are talking about? It's just like a brief spasm, not always all over my body, sometimes maybe in my arm if someone hits me etc.

Pessi, I can see your concern that "real" life is perhaps more enjoyable because at the end of the day, it is just a dream.

But what inspires me is the ability to lead a normal day by day life and then go to sleep and have some more fun. If you know you're dreaming when you're dreaming then I'd imagine that eventually you'd understand that what you're feeling, seeing and doing is just an "illusion". I wouldn't say my day-by-day life is very exciting, so I've got no concern about being able to control my dreams and do stuff in them.

You may not be similar but like RE it is understandable that some people want to dream what they dream. I don't. I hardly remember any of my dreams, they never mean anything and even if they do relate to something in waking-life present, past or future I would never be able to figure them out.

I've got a book on dreams that basically says; "Lucid dreaming is the devil! You shouldnt lucid dream because then you'll erase or change any messages you're being told in your dreams!" - which I think is rubbish. I don't like being pushed about in waking life and I don't really enjoy it in dreams. I'd like to take control. This way I think it'll help me in waking life, i.e. how to be more social etc. I can test conversations and so forth.

The only problem that remains is that it IS a dream and therefore whatever happens WONT be the real outcome! But it'll give you an impression

Plus, I'm never going to be able to fly. So, why not dream it and enjoy it - but dream it realistically I liked Duzz's plans of things to do! Hehehe.

No offence taken ^_^

[rodekill]

It's exactly like what Felipe described, and close to what Mods described.
Unpleasant.
Unlike bouncy boobie signatures...

[MrColossal]

when i was younger i could just imagine myself playing super mario brothers and playing on the first board mario would be jumping over holes, jump jump jump jump, and then i'd purposefully make him fall down a hole after ALMOST making the jump, my body would jump along with mario and i'd wake up

[Ghormak]

I experience it too, but not really the way you are describing it.

From your description it sounds like you're sure that you've already fallen asleep and started dreaming when you experience these falls. It's not that way for me. I can be lying in bed, eyes closed, just thinking about things, trying to sleep... and then BAM it feels as if the bed has disappeared! I guess it means I've already fallen asleep when that happens, but it certainly doesn't feel that way.

[MrColossal]

that happens to me now ghormak, when i was a kid it was Mario, now the bed just disappears...

I guess that's where "falling asleep" comes from?

[Duzz]

What you're describing comes from what's called "hypnogogic hallucinations" (from the greek meaning "into sleep").
 It happens when you're first drifting off to sleep and starting an initial REM period.  You body is fully  paralized (apart from the eyes) during this period, but when you're first entering it, if you're not paralized yet, you can sometimes jolt awake.  I hit my self in the head once when I visualised my bike handle bars falling of my bike while I was riding.  (I laughed out loud when I realised what was happening =) )

If you concentrate when you're falling asleep you can notice the hypnogogics start.  You'll start having really strange thoughts, and a vivid imagination.  This can be used to have a lucid dream, because at this stage you can still have consious control of your thoughts.  If you try and hold on to the thought that you're going to be asleep in a few moments, and will start dreaming, you can become lucid.  (this takes a lot of concentration though, and I'm pretty lousy at it)

Anyway, the other major reason for me not going on with lucid dreaming is that I like to pay more attention to living in real world.

I actually feel the exact opposite, when I'm really into lucid dreaming, I find that I can see the world in a whole new light.  In a lucid dream, I can look at a tree, and marvel at its complexity; the textures and feel of the bark, etc.  But in normally in waking life it's just another boring tree.
The element of ultra-reality that I enjoy in Lucid dreams, I started to feel in waking life too.  Especially when I'm uber bored, commuting home from uni or something, I'll suddenly have a lucid moment, and everything will seem bright, and new.  I can marvel at the sky or the people driving around, etc.  
 Another element of 'lucid living' is that I've started to do things that I would only really do in a dream.  I'm usually a pretty restrained kind of guy.  But I've been trying things that are 'out of my comfort zone' more often.  Seeking new experiences.  I think I've also become more creative since I started LDing. I'd never even tried drawing anything untill december 2002, I just didn't think I was creative enough. (But that's probably more to do with the fact that AGS is so cool)

I've got a book on dreams that basically says; Lucid dreaming is the devil!

A lot of people seem to think that they'll lose normal dreams forever, which I could imagine would piss dream analysts off, but even if you can manage 1 lucid dream every night, There's still an average of at least 5 other dreams a night. Plus you can analyse your own dreams why they're happening:
-"so, mr pink bunny rabbit, what you do symbolise?"
-"I represent your repressed sexual feelings towards your mother."
-"oh."

[m0ds]

I'd like to benefit from it in the same way, Duzz. I'm sure many people would.

I've started to do things that I would only really do in a dream. I'm usually a pretty restrained kind of guy. But I've been trying things that are 'out of my comfort zone' more often. Seeking new experiences.

Like what?

[Duzz]

Well the best example would be "draining" The first time it involved climbing onto a ledge on the inside wall of the yarra river in the middle of melbourne, and then walking through a tunnel about a kilometer long, and popping up out of  a footpath on the other side of melbourne, with onlookers looking at us strangely.  That was a very dreamlike experience, and something I would have just said 'nah' to if I'd been asked before, unless I was really drunk anyway =P

[Nacho]

The worst dream of all: Dreaming with something completely amazing... And forget what it was when you awake up!!!

I once dreamed that Beethoven and Mozard where at heaven and they had to compose a song for God. They did it and I remember that I felt something completely amazed.

But I forgott the tune

[TerranRich]

I had that same experience. I one time dreamt that I had written and could perform the greatest song ever to exist. when I awoke, I could remember the tune fairly well, and I REALLY should've recorded myself humming it. A few hours later, it was gone.

I wonder why memories pertaining to dreams are the most fleeting?

[Felipe]

I experience it too, but not really the way you are describing it.

From your description it sounds like you're sure that you've already fallen asleep and started dreaming when you experience these falls. It's not that way for me. I can be lying in bed, eyes closed, just thinking about things, trying to sleep... and then BAM it feels as if the bed has disappeared! I guess it means I've already fallen asleep when that happens, but it certainly doesn't feel that way.

That's what I meant with:
"Before you sleep, though you're sleeping already."

I guess that's where "falling asleep" comes from?

LOL

[Ryukage]

I wonder why memories pertaining to dreams are the most fleeting?

It's because of the way the brain stores memories.  Each memory physically alters the brain, creating a "wrinkle" as it were.  At first the wrinkle is very shallow, but the more times you think about that memory the deeper the wrinkle becomes.  If the wrinkle doesn't get deep enough fast enough, it smooths out and the memory vanishes.

Besides how many times you think about something, it also has to do with the number of different ways you access the memory.  Remembering is one way; writing it down creates a secondary access pathway.  Telling someone about it creates a third way of accessing the memory -- the more ways there are to access the memory the longer it takes to fade.  If you're a programmer, think of it like reference counting and automatic garbage collection.



On the topic of lucid dreams... I almost always have some degree of conscious control, and always have.  I've never had a flying dream, lucid or otherwise -- though I have occassionally had dreams where I jumped off something and just sorta hung in the air.  For me, dreams are kinda like being on the holodeck in Star Trek, or in the Matrix.  I can freeze the program, rewind it, alter it, change to a different program; but at the same time the program still has its rules which cannot be broken even when I try.  I don't really need "reality checks" or any other special technique because dream objects are never as "solid" as real objects to me -- again, it's like a holographic environment: all fascade, no substance.  I also look rather different in my dreams than I do IRL; probably a result of my personality being much more heroic than my physique.

[Ginny]

Whoa, I didn't notice any of these threads before, I should read this forum more often..
Anyway, I have been interested in lucid dreams for quite some time, and have very recently finished a project on the subject of lucid dreaming (a few days ago). I've had some lucid dreams, and I'm glad to see many people here are interested in them too.
I am very interested in how lucid dreams can bring about creativity for game making. This can happen in regular dreams too, but more rarely.

I'm gonna read the thread now .

P.s. Does anyone have any information about the healing quality of lucid dreams? As it turns out, excercising skills, even those of malfunctioning muscles for example, can induce healing.

About falling asleep, I often get a similar feeling when waking up, like I was on top of the bed and fell down with a thump. It used to puzzle me, though not really scare, but now I think it might be an OBE.

I haven't read the thread yet, but has anyone had shared lucid dreams before? Apparantly it's possible to share lucid dreams, or have precognitive lucid dreams which take place in the real world at any time or place, and thus you could try observing the future (all in theory of course) or changing things in the real world. This concept really intriques me, and also it may be connected to deja-vus I often have.

Ryukage - Wow, that's some very interesting information. It's a mystery to me how the brain of the person can remember and "feel" so many things...
Perhaps these wrinkles dissapear with time when being unused? Could this be a method to forget something? Also, maybe going over memories while in a lucid dream could sharpen the memory?

Now I have a headache .

[Dave Gilbert]

I went through a lucid dreaming phase back in high school.  I tried like hell to do it and was only slightly successful.  Here's a few tips I remember.

The main thing is that you have to be able to recognize a dream when you have one.  There are a few ways to bring this about.  The most basic is to try and prove that you're dreaming every half hour  (by making the carpet pink, or something small).  If you get into the habit of doing this, eventually you'll find youself doing it within a dream itself.  It's supposed to be one of the key excercises, but I would always forget to do it.

Another tack, which was MUCH more successful, is to keep a dream diary.  Keep a notebook next to your bed, and attach a felt tip pen to it with a cord.  AS SOON as you wake up, jot down everything you can remember.  Mark down what happened in the dream, your impressions of the dream, and what it might mean (if anything).    

I diligently kept that book for months, and at first my entries were small and not very interesting.  But as time went on, the entries became longer, more detailed and more complex.  Basically, my brain was being trained to remember and recall more and more about my dreams.  Eventually, this will make it easier to bring about a lucid dream.  This actually happened a few times.

The lucid experiences I had were few but memorable.  In one I was walking around my old summer camp.  I remember feeling this wonderful wave of familiarity as I walked around.  Like Duzz, the textures and colors were so VIBRANT!  It seemed more real.  I couldn't keep it going for long though, and I "woke up," although I only dreamt that I woke up.  

My second lucid experience was truly bizarre, and kind of scary.  

I was sitting in a circle of about two dozen people, and a middle aged woman was walking around the circle, asking each of us in turn: "Are you the one having this dream."  

When she came to me, I said "Yes!  Of course!"

She looked at me closesly, clicked her tongue, and said "No.  Not you."  

She continued down the circle, and eventually came to a teenage girl.  The woman looked at the girl and said "You're having this dream.  Do you know who I am?"  

The girl looked up and said "Mom?"  

The woman nodded.  The young girl burst into tears of joy, and clung to the older woman with a vise-like embrace.  They held that position for awhile, and I woke up soonafter.

Not sure what it "means," but it sure freaked the mortal piss out of me.