Mohammed cartoons

[Nacho]

Does that mean we're 500 years ahead than the muslims Voh? Because if you were trying to deffend them that's not a good stalement, I guess...

[voh]

Sure, we've gone beyond that, but we've BEEN there. We've been just as bad as they were. The total disrespect the white man and christianity has shown to those who were different is still evident, but doesn't mean the current white men or christians should be blamed for old mistakes.

But we also can't blame Muslims for doing that which we would probably do as well, if we were still 95%+ actively religious Christians.

The world is a changing place. Some say we're more evolved than the people from the Middle East. I say we've changed. We've gotten to a point they might reach one day as well. But in their relative solitude, they've kept to their beliefs as we haven't.

If you re-read that part very carefully, you'll notice that I actually say "Some say we're more evolved than the people from the Middle East. I say we've changed."

We've changed from a society that's all about religion to a society that's all about freedom and the ability to choose your own future. Whether that's a good thing isn't something I'm keen to judge on, as I honestly don't know. The muslim world, however, is still a society that's all about religion. I was trying to relate the history of Christian behaviour towards non-believers to the way some muslims are treating non-believers. I never judged anywhere in that text, and I definitely didn't say they were 500 years behind.

The muslims are in this time space, as are we. We're all in it together. There are still Christian communities that are very, very scary, and there are muslim communities that are very, very scary. The difference is that the west has changed to a non-religious society, where religion takes a back seat to other things that we value. Perhaps the Middle East will become like that too, in the future, but they've hung on to their religion for so long that I doubt it.

Also, the difference between Christianity and Islam is that Islam actually has a whole slab of laws and rules for society to follow (Sharia, if I'm not mistaken), that takes precedence over other laws in many muslim countries. Following that logic, I can understand why there are major conflicts between muslims and non-muslims, since we do not follow their laws, and because we're not muslims, don't understand half of what they follow.

[Ghormak]

Does that mean we're 500 years ahead than the muslims Voh?

We are. Mohammed was born in the year 570, Jesus in year 0.

Zing!

[Redwall]

So where are the Jews, then?

[Ali]

Does that mean we're 500 years ahead than the muslims Voh? Because if you were trying to deffend them that's not a good stalement, I guess...

It's a sentiment that does seem to crop up in the Western Media frequently though, and is entirely wrong-headed.

I'd argue that the lack of religious fervour among Western Europeans has more to do with the Protestant work ethic facilitating the growth of international capitalism. We're not less religious because we're more advanced. To a great extent we've internalised elements of faith to bring our modes of worship in line with with modern capitalism.

In the west, worship is about what you believe, not what you do. Sola Fide and all that. Consequently we forget that what you do is very important in religions like Islam.

[voh]

So where are the Jews, then?

Right here!

[fred]

I agree with Ali that capitalism and protestantism have been linked in very convincing ways.

Max Weber was the first to write about it, argueing that, according to Luther, man was a born sinner and condemned to hell, salvation being only possible through a personal effort. And still, one could never be sure to go to heaven. This is similar to working off an endless debt, which, in short, leads to captitalism and the notion that hoarding riches is a goal in itself (whereas for instance the catholics had a much more relaxed view on wealth - spenders, rather than hoarders). I think the "time-is-money"-paradigm is still very much visible in the christian world as opposed to other parts, and being non-religious myself, I'm not sure I can deny my cultural heritage in this respect.

About militant islam, I think it has a lot to do with the Islamic countries' tradition of political leadership. When some are violently outraged by cartoons, it's only because they've learned that this would be the reaction of their leaders towards themselves if they dared break the rules. And their leaders have kept them comfortably unaware that freedom of expression is a human right in other parts of the world. Hopefully this conflict will screw up that plan.

[ildu]

Today the Prime Minister of Finland went on telly and warned Finnish people abroad to stay alert. This whole situation is a sad sad blow to the diplomacy we still have with the islam world. It's a good thing though that most of the high-ranking muslim clerics have stated that they concur with the westerners' opinions. It just seems like public outbreak is very easy to initiate in the muslim community. Is it the restrictive and strict religion or outcry for better conditions that's creating this kind of behaviour? An editor at the newpaper in question went on record saying the cartoons weren't the real reason for the riots. He believed the living conditions were the real timebomb.

[Flippy_D]

Second generation immigrants are - from my impressions - usually struggling with their identity. Do you belong to the country, or do you belong to your heritage? Within that, youths who need direction are easily malleable to imams or incendiry tongues.

What's worse is that as young muslims are encouraged to shun the west and to preach their cause, it further isolates the religion from the rest of the world. This then creates more disaffected and 'lost' young arabs and asians who turn to the people who seem to know what they are doing.

Read White Teeth. Read Brick Lane.

Footnote: I found it ironic that some muslims who protested in London had banners that said "Free Speech go to hell", when it is free speech that gives them the right to say such things.

[Pumaman]

It's a good thing though that most of the high-ranking muslim clerics have stated that they concur with the westerners' opinions.

Perhaps, although I was talking to a Muslim friend about this, and he was saying that as far as he's concerned, the high-ranking Muslim "officials" have been corrupted by the West, are too liberal and don't reflect the views of real Muslims.

But I think you're right that it's not the cartoons themselves that have caused so much anger, they've just been the catalyst that has brought people onto the streets over pre-existing tensions.

[Huw Dawson]

Publish a cartoon of a political leader and people laugh.

Publish a cartoon of a religous leader and people get mad.

Publish a cartoon of the first religous leader of a faith that is renowned for justifying the deaths of at least 10,000 in the last 10 years, it's kind of obvious what's going to happen (refer to avatar).

Some people are really, really, really stupid.
Especially cartoonists.

- Huw

[HillBilly]

Especially cartoonists.

I don't really think it's the cartoonists that's the problem here.

A cartoonist's point of view.

[ildu]

It's a good thing though that most of the high-ranking muslim clerics have stated that they concur with the westerners' opinions.

Perhaps, although I was talking to a Muslim friend about this, and he was saying that as far as he's concerned, the high-ranking Muslim "officials" have been corrupted by the West, are too liberal and don't reflect the views of real Muslims.

Well, that depends on how one defines a real muslim. A lot of people are swayed by the fundamentalists and extremists, so basically the youngsters have become more extreme and violent than the conservative oldies. For example, Bin Laden is a big-ass radical in the muslim world. He's totally against the traditional methods and represents a new extremist way. For example, before, a fatwa could only be issued by a high-ranking cleric in the community. Now as Bin Laden and other radicals have emerged, it's publically acknowledged that anyone can issue fatwas against anyone. And the youngsters have gone this route. So, it would pretty much be better for the rest of the world, if the conservative values were once again embraced.

[Nacho]

So... the highly criticised "Vatican model" (say a lot of things, but so old fashioned that nobody will care about) is better? Because that's been my point for years and everybody yelled to me...

[RickJ]

Gord10, 
I was glad to see your post last night but was too sleepy to reply then.  Again, as long as you don't take any of this personally, I'd like to share more of my thoughts with you and listen to anything you may have to add or disagree with.   I guess the easiest way is to just go point by point.

@RickJ: To be honest; I think you're right with most of the things you said.

I am glad that you and I seem to have a meeting of minds and that we are able to talk about our differences in a calm manner in spite of my inflamatory remarks.   You seem to have a cooler head than I and you have my respect and envy in this regard.   

But the ratio %99,9 is too much. Yes, it was a very crowded riot which burnt the embassy buildind etc., but it doesn't mean %99,9 of Muslims are xenophobic.

I'll have to concede that my assertion that 99.9% of all Muslims as evil doers is an exaggeration.  On the other hand one could argue that my assertion is just as valid as the previous assertion that only 0.1% of Muslims have extreme beliefs.  It's interesting that this assertion went unchallenged and mine did not. 

Anyway I did lump an awful lot of adjectives together to make my point but doing so kind of complicates the math.  The main point of my statement is that Muslim intolerance of other religions and points of view is underlyoing this whole mess.  Here is my reasoning:

• It is widely published by news media, books, religious decree, and statments by Muslim leaders, etc)  that Isalm should be the only religion in the entire world and that it is God's will that all be converted to Islam by any means, even by force. 
  
  
• Conversion by force is discussed in the Quran and the practice is  given the blessings of the prophet and indeed were employed by him to spread Islam in the first place.   Indeed if not for Muhamad invading and conquering his neighbors it is likely very few, if any of us would have every heard of Islam.  This has been a continous conversion process and practice of Islam since it's inception.  I have read translations of the Quran and some of the the history of Islam myself and have aslo been told the same by numerous people who read/write Arabic and have first knowledge of these practices.
  
  
• Intolerance of other religions and beliefs by Muslims is on display world wide every minute of every day.   Just look at what's going on in Sudan for example.  In nearly all so called Muslim countries this intolerance carries the force of law to one degree or another.  Try taking a Bible into Saudai Arabia or Google for news stories about the recent sunami relief efforts that were hindered because Mulims didn't want to have Christians come and help the people.
  
  Intolerance and conversion by force are tenets of Islam prescribed in the Quran and practiced by Mohamad himself and others continously ever since.   It seems to me that devout followers are necessarily obligated to, or by definition must, adopt and practice these views/values.    That's what all these protests are about anyway aren't they.  If tolerance and acceptance of others people's beliefs were an Islamic virtue then there wouldn't be anyone to protest or riot would there, at least not devout Muslims as these rioter claim to be and that no one has denounced as unfaithful.   Though I conceed that 99.9% was too large, by the same token 0.1% is far too small, IMHO.
  
  

  
  I believe your only information source about Muslims is the media; you could just learn the way we are shown.
  

  In fact Gord10 this is far from the truth.  Though I am not an expert I have traveled far and wide and have lived, worked, and played with people from all the world.   Here is a short list just to give you and idea.
  
  
• The professor who mentored me through garduate school (masters Degree in Electical Engineering) is from Egypt.  We spent much time together over a 2 year period.    On numerous occasions we took a break from work to muse about life, etc.  He told me his family was Christian because Christ had supposedly visited his ancestor's home  and/or village way back when.   He told me how poorly Christians are treated in Egypt and other middle eastern countries. 
  
  
• When I was employed at GE I workd on a project in the south of France for about a year.  In that time I met a lot of people from Algeria and a few from Turkey.  There was one guy from Turkey about my age that used to talk to me about politics.  I don't speak very much French and understand even less so we got some high school kid to translate for us.  He told me that since he was in France his eyes had been opened to the reality of the world situation.  We also managed to share a few jokes.  The funny thing was that the kid who was translating for us didn't get any of the jokes and did not have much undcerstanding of the other things we were talking about.
  
  
• My wife's gradfather is from Bethlem, making him a Palestinian.  We have arabic style cusine at our house on a regular basis.  I also have three nephews named Hassan, Husein, and Ahmed.   I get from her and her family their perspectives on world events and media coverage, whether I like it or not.
  
  
• One of my wife's close friends is from Jordan.  Her grandfather moved his family here to the US,  because in Jordan they were being persecuted doley for being Christians.  Her mother and uncles were kids when they moved and have many stories about how badly they were treated by Muslims just because they were Christians.
  
  
• My niece on my wife's side married a Saudi who turned out to be a piece of shit.  That whole episode made it necessary for me to interact with officials from the local Mosque.   I can tell you from my own direct personal experience these people are the most evil mother fuckers I ever met or can even imagine existing.   
  
  
• I do ocassional investigative work for a local anti-discrimination orgainization.  I get paid a little gas and burger money but it's pretty much a voluntary gig.   The who coordinates my assignments is from Iran and a Muslim.  We have a cordial, friendly relationship professionally and socially.  We have ocassion to have dicussions about many things, including world events.  I didn't know it but he tells me that, up until the last few decades, Iran had a human rights tradition going back several thousand years, that was tolerant of many different religions and cultures.
  
  
• I do watch the news but regardless what the comentary says, facts are facts.  There isn't much a news reporter could say about a bunch of Arabs chanting Ala Akbar whilst cutting someone's head off is there.  I mean there's the video and audio, there's the guy's headless body found and there's video again.   Do you really think it matters to anyone what the reporter has to say about it?  These sorts of thing have been happening on for a long time and have been on a regular basis for at least 35 years that I am aware of.   
  
  

  
  Me, my friends, my family and all my environment are Muslims; but we are not assholes who wants to destroy the civilization of Christanity.
  ...
  I want to note that the Westerners who visit Turkey usually changes their mind of prejudices. They see Islam is only a religion, not a thought of evilness or barbarianism. Also I believe I'm a good example of this, too. I had tried to be a part of a universal community, and guess I'm successful.
  

  You seem like a decent fellow and as I have said before my comments aren't directed at you personally but rather at the culture and religious beliefs common in your part of the world.  I am sure that you have a fine and honorable family and I will take your word that your friends are decent people also.  I would enjoy meeting you someday and having a few laughs about all this.  Wouldn't it be nice if we could put all the assholes in the world (yours and mine) on a giant spaceship and send them on their way to another planet ala HGTTG. 
  
  Well my friend I think the only thing we can do is make peace among ourselves pray that the rest of the world does the same they blow the whole damm thing up.   Tell your family I said hello and that I wish them well.   
  
  Best Regards
  Rick
  =============
  
  I have one more observation I'd like to share and ask everyone to think about.   
  
  If Islam is a religion of peace where beheadings, bombings, kidnapings, etc are truly against the tenets of the faith, and if these protestors are protesting because they are devout followers and defenders of their faith then where is their outrage against Al Queada and other terrorist groups who blaspheme the faith by carring out such evil atrocities in the name of Islam?  Hmmm, perhaps this cartoon atrocity has more to do with intolerance than with offence?   
  

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

I find it amazing how people can still find excuses to hate each other. My humble opinion is, nowadays, with much worse stuff around, people should start thinking with their heads instead of whatever. I suppose Monty Python should be stoned to death because of Life of Brian? Sure, I understand it got some bad publicity from the church or whatever, but it's still around and generally regarded as a heck of a good film.

By the way, what WERE the cartoons? I hadn't knows about it until I read this thread. What did they show?

EDIT - On a sidenote, I saw on the news some cartoons that are a sort of counter-attack. One of them was Hitler in bed with Anne Frank. Now, I don't find that offensive - I find that childish and ridiculous, not to mention rather unfair. But hey - I'm not about to get violent about it. Better for the world to ridicule them, as they could have ridiculed the cartoons.

[SSH]

Rick, if you think like that, then the terrorists have won! 

I'd like to point out that the Muslim kingdoms before the crusades and in Al-Andalus in Spain were far more accepting of other religions than their contemporary Christian countries were. The only penalty put on non-Muslims was higher taxes, which compares to what Christians were doing to Jews and Muslims at the time very unfavourably.

It was only after the Christians started holy wars on Muslims that they got the idea to do it back. And Arab countries must get pissed of with the West moralising about democracy etc. with things like the US and UK kicking out the democratic government of Iran in the 50s, Guantanamo Bay and in recent days all the pressure on the election winners in Palestine. Freedom to Vote - unless we don't like who wins...

Maybe the real difference between the Muslims and the US/Europe, is that we are more subtle... we keep our nasty bits better hidden. The Muslims do it out in the open. Which is more honest?

[Nacho]

Are you REALLY serious?

To hide our nasty bits, of couse. Start a Yijad, burning cars (Remember Paris '05?) and rioting everytime you are pissed is a behavour of... monkeys.

[SSH]

Much better to invade a whole country and overthrow its rulers on the pretext of defense against WMD. What was I thinking?

[Nacho]

Well... If they go on behaving this way next invassion will be done without any futher pretext.