Moving to London

[juncmodule]

Hello everyone.

I am giving some serious thought to relocating to London. I currently live in the U.S. and I'm just interested in doing some research right now. Kind of a Phase One.

I am also interested in hearing from anyone who has moved from their native country to another. I believe Layabout moved from Australia to the UK, so if you are reading this your opinions would mean a great deal.

Some things I am curious about:

1. Renting an apartment - cost, neighborhood, and things to be aware of, I understand that the real estate industry is a little shocking for us Americans.

2. Jobs - While my dream is not to move to London and work at McDonalds, I am willing to do just that if need be. I'm curious about low wage jobs and if one is able to survive on them in London. (keeping in mind that I am a college student and Ramen Noodles still taste good to me)

3. Citizenship - What do you know, how hard is it to get? If I knock up my girlfriend can we stay if our kid is born there?

Those are currently my primary interests. I have ordered two books and will probably be able to ask more specific questions in the future. For now I'm just looking for some general information and advice.

A note: From Americans, I'm really interested in any positive information you may be able to provide. If you have negative information please keep it to yourself. I have found an abnormal amount of anti-relocation propaganda regarding leaving our good ol' America. From our European (and hopefully Londoners) I am actually somewhat interested in hearing you complain. Mostly I'm interested in negative things you may have to say about everyday life in London. You know things like, "They only have one flavor of Ramen Noodles in the whole country!"

Thanks in advance. I will try to update this thread as I learn more and make progress. This is something I intend on doing in a couple of years. I want to be sure I know what I'm getting myself into here.

Thanks again,
-junc

[Darth Mandarb]

No negative feedback from this yank ...

First off, good to "see" you again man!

About moving to England:  I actually considered it a few years back.  I wanted to experience life in another country and England seemed the easiest fit.  It's exciting to consider and I hope you do it!  It's funny 'cause if one of my "real world" friends wanted to move I'd try and talk him out of it (for selfish reasons) 'cause I wouldn't want him to go.  But I can read your posts just as effectively if you type them from another country as if you type them from here!

So while I can't offer any practical advice and/or information I will just say I'm excited for you and wish you best of luck!

[AGA]

London is probably the most expensive place to live in the UK. The UK is among the most expensive places in Europe to live. Dunno how well you'd manage to live on a minimum-wage job there, but plenty of people seem to manage it. Probably won't be much fun though.

[Disco]

I've looked into this intermittently over past few years, and discovered it is really quite difficult as an American to move anywhere really.

For instance, I wanted to move to the UK or someplace in Europe for adventure and for being close to dear friends (thanks to AGS and a couple other internet communities, the number of what I consider to be close friends outside of the US nearly triple those within), but unless you are a grandson/daughter of a native, have an employment sponsor, or are marrying somebody from that country, it is exceedingly difficult for a person of American citizenship to move anywhere abroad.

Additionally, from what I have seen of UK visa requirements, any employer you might tantalise has to prove that they could not find a British person to fill that position, then a worker from any EU countries if they are to hire anyone from anywhere else. Please note that this information is from what I have gleaned over a few years of research, most not being extremely recent, and may have changed.

If visiting the UK for example, as a non-student or similar, your passport stamp specifically states that you are barred from employment, cannot receive public funds, and cannot stay for longer than six months at a time. As an American, you are also unable to enter the working holiday scheme, which is open to Australians, Canadians. persons from various African and Asian countries, but not the US :/

If I knock up my girlfriend can we stay if our kid is born there?

Yes, I think, so long as she is British. If you are taking your American girlfriend there, then I am inclined to say it would likely not result in citizenship, though I haven't researched that avenue.

[passer-by]

It depends on what you want to do in the foreign country. Moving abroad for the sake of it is not a bright idea if you are under 65 years of age (in my  opinion).

I try to move abroad as well, but as I don't care about citizenship, I focus on employment chances, which seem to be slim, if you just go there and ask for a job, even with EU projects for job mobility (I'm in Greece). Not only in the UK but in EU in general.

You might want to find a job first and  worry about appartments and citizenship later. There are many international companies where it seems safe to apply to. I wouldn't abandon everything for a company that proves to be on the verge of bancruptsy or illegal or that they find out that they don't need a new employee after all.

Big, international companies may agree to hire you for a local position and then send you to their offices at the country you want to go (so you avoid possible employment obstacles in the UK) , but you have to work for them in the US for a while, I suppose.

There are are online services like your CV online of the EU official site (or similar british sites), but it's your responsibility to get a job.

If you still want to go there and work at McDonalds, as you said, I think you'd better start saving, for an average of 3-4 salaries plus travel and appropriate documents expenses will be really helpful, if you are not good at juggling fire on a monocycle or playing saxo at the London tube.

[Nikolas]

Christina, I'm not sure that job chances are slim. Not at least in the UK. I've been in London for 3 years (yes, as a student), but I've had plenty of chances to work. My wife who was here as a professional architect found a job the first month of living here (actually the first ten days).

My impression of London, is that all jobs chnage really quickly and there is always need for people to work. It all comes down to what job of course, but... Teaching and architecture are fine, as I see it. (and I'm Greek too).

Then again Greece is in the EU, so there are no citizenship problems, or many bank problems (one of the main starting problems in the UK. How to open a damn bank account when you first move in. You can't just go there and open an account. You need, either, a school, or a job... OR get a really really bad bank account).

On the questions:

1. London is hugely expensive. I live in a 2 bedroom flat + a very smal room for my equipment, and 2 baths and give 2000$ per month. I'm away from any tube station, thus when leaving the house, we have to either drive or take a bus (which is close by at least), but we are also in Zone 4! Zone 4= 15-20 Miles from the centre of London. For studio you need around 1000$ I'd say, but of course it depends on where you live. You can always find a dirty little room, with shared toilet and kitchen for 600-700$ somewhere... Or share a flat...

2. Low wage jobs? There are also the tax credits and general help from the goverment... But low wage jobs won't keep you happy or alive. I mean if you are to come here and not have enough money to go to a pub, once a week, why come in the first place? Chance jobs like Tescos, or IKEA come at around 5-6£ an hour, I think. x8 hours, x5 a week you get a resonable ammount, but it's a death job!

3. Citizenship I don't know. Again we are Greek, but when my wife (partner, it's the same in the UK, nobody cares if you'#re married or not) got pregnant they invited us to give birth to the child here. We just chose to go to Athens... But  Idon't know if it's the same overseas...

[passer-by]

I'm not sure that job chances are slim. Not at least in the UK.

It's my experience of people (of different qualifications) who went to the UK and came back within 18 months. I think it always depends on the job. Moving abroad with nothing to start is not always a wise move. The ones that I know and that are still living there arrived either as students or as stagiaire for a company. Or they had family there who helped them find a job or even hired them.

Then, again, if you just want to go abroad for the experience and you don't care if your job is worse and less well paid than the one you have now, you can just move and see what happens (which I wouldn't do).

Unemployement is harsh enough in one's own country, I wouldn't like to know what it means to be starving abroad.

That's why I said you have to have at least 3 months' salary plus tickets to start with.

[Nikolas]

I guess it goes down to the people, or the specific situations. But after 18 months I wouldn't imagine that it's the lack of job that got them to leave. I would assume, that they just got what they needed and left. Same with me. 3 years here, another 1-2 years and I'm back to Greece I guess (unless something fantstic comes along here or elsewhere). Doesn't mean that they "failed" or couldn't find a proper job, or whatever. Just that the time went by and they came back to their homes...

Either way, it all comes down to why you want to do it. I always thought to myself that if I am to leave the country, it will be either to study or work making a career. (I'm doing both right now ). Someone else might feel that leaving, just leaving, is enough. No need and they'll solve everything...



3.

Now that I think of it, I was chatting with esper that he wanted to leave the States, and he was telling me that it is difficult to do so, not because UK won't let you stay, but because USA won't let  you leave.

[Meowster]

not kidding, Brighton is way better than London.

[juncmodule]

"good to "see" you again man!"

Same. Thanks for the good luck wishes, from the other replies it looks like I'm going to need it!

Dunno how well you'd manage to live on a minimum-wage job there, but plenty of people seem to manage it. Probably won't be much fun though.

It can't be any worse than many of the situations I've been in here. But good to hear that some folks are able to do it. (YAY POSITIVE!)

I've looked into this intermittently over past few years, and discovered it is really quite difficult as an American to move anywhere really.

It is actually quite frightening to me that it "seems" so difficult. I really just don't believe it. I think it is propaganda. I think that there is just a trick to it.

If you are taking your American girlfriend there, then I am inclined to say it would likely not result in citizenship

I actually wiki'd this one, and you are correct. If she is not British - no citizenship.

It depends on what you want to do in the foreign country.

I am fleeing what I consider to be a hostile political environment. I live in a great deal of fear from my government and I do not see the future to hold much good for Americans. I have some pretty radical political views (radical as far as certain Americans are concerned) and I just don't think I will ever be at home here.

I think you'd better start saving

A huge part of why I am calling this "Phase One" and giving it a few years is just because of saving. I expect to at least require one years wages in order to pull this off. In addition to any money for paperwork fees, the actual flight over (I'm actually considering taking a cruise and just not coming back, teehee), and whatever else may come up.

I mean if you are to come here and not have enough money to go to a pub, once a week, why come in the first place?

I don't drink.

For studio you need around 1000$ I'd say, but of course it depends on where you live.

I've lived in some pretty rough neighborhoods. I would be looking for something between "I don't get shot on this street" and "It gots 4 walls!"

many bank problems

I've actually read a little about this. Job - Apartment - Bank Account - each require one or more of the other to get the other. One of the books I ordered is supposed to cover how to handle this. I went for my first few years in this city without a bank account. Check Cashing lines...mmmm....fun.

not because UK won't let you stay, but because USA won't let  you leave.

Let's hope so. That would eliminate the citizenship problem. I would just apply for political asylum or something. heh.

Unemployment is harsh enough in one's own country, I wouldn't like to know what it means to be starving abroad.

Trust me, starving in the US sucks just as much as in the UK. I don't have any family here so it really wouldn't make a difference.

not kidding, Brighton is way better than London.

Honestly, the main reason I have picked London is because anything official I need to get done I can do right there. I won't have to worry about traveling across the country to get some stupid paper signed.

Employment and Citizenship issues aren't "actual" concerns of mine. I was just curious about what people thought of them. I have several different avenues I can pursue for both of these things. Some of them related. Education being at the top of that list. Since I'm in college I may be able to use that to break down a lot of barriers. My connections at my university may prove to be very useful.

I'm also a world famous adventure game developer and electronic musician, if they let Madonna in, they are gonna love me! Besides, doesn't Chris like, know the Queen or something?

later,
-junc

[m0ds]

Layabout would be a good man to ask. He's moved from Australia to England, and lived mostly on bar work and accomodation that comes with that :p

I think you'd do alright in England, though London probably wouldn't be the wisest place to start living, unless you're going to uni there or something. House prices may be high there but I have no clue what renting is like.

Good luck though! Whether you decide to come or not, you'll always be welcome here!

[Disco]

Layabout would be a good man to ask. He's moved from Australia to England, and lived mostly on bar work and accomodation that comes with that :p

Indeed I think Layabout is the person to ask in this situation, just keep in mind that he moved from a commonwealth and that his father (or mother?) emigrated to Australia from England if I recall correctly, so he had two positives working for him

[Pumaman]

I have to say, I still don't see the attraction of moving to this rainy, congested, CCTV-covered wasteland that we call Britain...

[SSH]

CJ, he lives in a country run by George Bush...

[juncmodule]

No, no, no SSH!

I live in a country where George Bush was "ELECTED" to lead.

That is the problem.

Oh, and Disco: Yup, that makes his advice on citizenship pretty useless actually.

I did do a little more research. Citizenship is actually not the problem. As a matter of fact citizenship appears to be relatively straight forward and simple. Once you have been in the country for 5 years you have the status of "Indefinite leave to remain" which allows you to begin the naturalization process. It is getting to that 5 years that I have to struggle with.

However, it is the little things that I'm also curious about here.

What "other" questions should I be asking? "CCTV-covered wasteland" is actually a very good point to bring up.

-Do you fear your government?

-Do you feel like, at least at times, your government has your best interests in mind.

-How about raising a family?

-The school systems?

-Do you feel "safe" in your day to day life, are Brits pounded with "The terrorists are gonna getcha" crap? (I know that Londoners may get this a lot more considering recent news and all, but what about the rest of the country?)

-How about retirement?

-Welfare or more importantly an equivalent to our "Workman's Compensation" a government program which assists if you have been injured on the job?

and as far as layabout is concerned, I will PM him. Perhaps he can still offer some advice on getting used to you brits and your wacky slang.

later,
-junc

[Becky]

I'll help by answering some of your questions.

-Do you fear your government?
Not really.  Okay, so they're not perfect and the current "climate of fear" has raised some dubious law-making proceedures, but we're not really PATRIOT-act style just yet.  I have more fear of our government being incompetent than all-seeing/knowing/controlling.

-Do you feel like, at least at times, your government has your best interests in mind.
On the whole, maybe.  Maybe not.  Whatever gets them the most votes, which generally mean more promises to help schools/NHS/environment.

-How about raising a family?
Couldn't really comment about this, sorry.  But medical treatment is free here (though a prescription will set you back £6.75 per item, excluding contraceptives and some other medications) which is one major worry off of some people's shoulders.

-The school systems?
This depends highly on the area you live in.  I've been very fortunate in that I live in one of the areas where grammar schools still exist, and I completed my secondary education at a very good grammar school.  Not all of our schools are necessarily "crap" or anything, I personally mantain that a lot of the problems with "kids today" is down to bad parenting, not bad schools.

-Do you feel "safe" in your day to day life, are Brits pounded with "The terrorists are gonna getcha" crap? (I know that Londoners may get this a lot more considering recent news and all, but what about the rest of the country?)
Actually, I think you'll find Londoners get no more/less of that than the rest of us (I myself live just outside London, in a town featured for containing terrorists last year ).  The stiff-upper-lip attitude is quite prevalent here, from my experience, and most people see these terrorist incidents as more of an inconvenience to travel arrangements more than anything.

-How about retirement?
Currently you are entitled to a state pension once you reach 65 BUT they are highly predicting that as the population ages my generation will not be provided with one as there will not be enough people in the work force to support the pensioners.  It is strongly advised to arrange a pension with an employer, or start your own personal savings fund which you make regular payments into ASAP.

-Welfare or more importantly an equivalent to our "Workman's Compensation" a government program which assists if you have been injured on the job?
There are all sorts of welfare and benefits here, a much more comprehensive system than is in place in the US anyway.  I think the equivalent here is National Insurance, which is effectively a second tax upon your income that everyone pays into in order to provide disability, unemployment and long-term sickness benefit.  I wouldn't be able to comment on how adequate those systems are, but they are in place.  As already mentioned, medical treatment in the UK is free.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

If you want to get on the fast track to the UK become a dentist...or lie about it.   

[scotch]

I agree with Becky, the government isn't half as scary as they wish they were, although people should get onto them about privacy a bit more. It'd be worse if British people were more scared about bombings and stuff, hopefully they'll continue to not panic. Inner cities often do have a lot of CCTV coverage, public and private... that in itself doesn't bother me but there's no denying it's harder to remain anonymous these days.

I would imagine when it comes to raising a family, accomodation would be the main difficulty. If you don't have a real income then you're not going to be able to rent a house, let alone buy one. That won't change for quite some time, there just aren't enough houses.

Schools: I've lived in average to poor areas, and the schools were fine in my opinion. But do check out results and reputation if you're worried. Inner city schools have the worst reputations, so I'd definitely do that if I lived in London.

Yeah as Becky said, people don't tend to worry about bombings or whatever. I remember being in London on 7/7/2005, and people just got on with stuff as best they could with the transport disruption. I hope if there are more bombings, people can continue as they have. On the other hand, it's a bit weird seing armed police on the streets in London/airports, and there are more "don't leave baggage unattended" type warnings on the tube than before. Anywhere else there's no change.

If you can't work due to long term illness or injury you can get disability allowance, which is quite adequate but harder than it was to claim (still, I know people that are on it and really shouldn't be). There are greater employee protection laws throughout europe, so if you're sick for some time, you'll be able to work something out. If you're searching for work then you get jobseeker's allowance, which isn't a large amount of money, but you can get help with your housing costs as well.

The price for all that is higher taxes than the US, of course. Pretty much all of Europe works this way.

I think moving abroad without a good wage to go to is quite a brave thing to do... I personally wouldn't. A lot of the support you might be able to get as a British Citizen may not be available to you for some time. If you are determined to do it for cheap, I'd suggest anywhere except London. What are you studying? If you're finishing your studies soon, and it's something that's in demand here, you might be alright...

[Nikolas]

I'm Greek, living in London (inside the M25) for 3 years now... I guess my POv could be useful, as someone who is not British, living here, with a family...

-Do you fear your government?

No, not at all. Back in Greece I always thougth the goverment were stupid morons. At least here I don't get that feeling... and they are trying to inflict a bit of fear, mainly through the telly in campaing/propaganda about things they consider bad (smoking, speeding, sex diseases, etc), with very cacthy, artistically, but shocking ads, but they are not doing anything else really. And they are certainly not trying to provide a base for "fear about terrorism".

-Do you feel like, at least at times, your government has your best interests in mind.

comparison with Greece again: In Greece no, their interest is on themselves! Here I think they do care about the people. And UK as a "nation", or even better an "empire" (ouch! Time to get beaten in this forum)

-How about raising a family?

I actually like it very much here, thus far. with 2 kids I have a family I don't know if I would like to have my kids being 13-15 over here, but certainly for toddlers is very very fine! Raising a family... The goverment helps enormously for various expenses, but the main one, the nursery is almost unbearable, even with tax credits... 2000$ per month!!!!?!?!?!?!!?

-The school systems?

No idea on that one really... I think that it's a bit pushy as a system, but I actually am not sure at all about that, just a hunch more than anything else... Universities are too mnay, imo, and most are not the greatest around... THAT I know! (ouch! for the 2nd time)

-Do you feel "safe" in your day to day life, are Brits pounded with "The terrorists are gonna getcha" crap? (I know that Londoners may get this a lot more considering recent news and all, but what about the rest of the country?)

Not for a minute! but then again I'm Greek so I have the illusion that, if something happens, I will be saved because I'm Greek and not British... Stupid, but at least I don't worry...

-How about retirement?

That is AWFUL! At least from what my wife and me tell me. IT appears that private insurance is the way to go, but you need to afford it...

-Welfare or more importantly an equivalent to our "Workman's Compensation" a government program which assists if you have been injured on the job?

Goverment is very helpful in all situations actually...

And the NHS is free for many cases, including people on job seekers allowance, all kids up to the age of 16 (or is it 18?), and other things.

[Becky]

Universities are too mnay, imo, and most are not the greatest around...

Actually, the standard of most universities in the UK is pretty damn good (particularly the London ones, and of course Durham/Oxford/Cambridge/York/Warwick) especially if you go to one renowned for excellence in the subject you are interested in. 

And all treatment on the NHS is free, you only have to pay for prescriptions (at £6.75 an item), though those are free if you're under 19