Moving to London

[Nikolas]

Actually, the standard of most universities in the UK is pretty damn good (particularly the London ones, and of course Durham/Oxford/Cambridge/York/Warwick) especially if you go to one renowned for excellence in the subject you are interested in.

I don't have any charts, or facts about what I said, but my experience is just... what I said. There is no way to prove what I said really, and maybe it the circumstance, but yet, from many cases I've seen the quality is not... damn good. Again this is my personal opinion of course, and is based on no facts, or no proofs really.

And all treatment on the NHS is free, you only have to pay for prescriptions (at £6.75 an item), though those are free if you're under 19

Sorry, that's what I mean. I stand corrected.

[Timosity]

Hey Junc,

interesting to hear you want to move countries, and for political reasons, at least Bush hasn't got much time left, (but I guess what he's done is going to take many generations to recover if that is even possible)

I thought about Moving to London around 2003/4 just for the experience, but only on a working visa as at the time you had to be 28 or under. My brother in law's brother ran a pub over there, so I had a place to work and stay to start off with if I decided to go through with it.

I never got round to it, and the age window has passed although the age may have changed now, not sure but I'm not as interested, as instead I saved up and bought a place, and now can't save any money as it all goes into my mortgage.

If London doesn't work for you, you can come over here, but Sydney is also one of the most expensive cities to live and rent is at an all time high at the moment. Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth are also good cities with opportunity within Australia. Perth being the most Isolated capital city in the world if you really want to hide but also quite expensive, though if you want to earn big money, there's a lot of well paid mining work eg. no experience AU$120,000 a year outside Perth, but you wouldn't have much of a life, but I don't think money is one of your priorities. I'm also not sure about working visa's in Australia.

Good Luck

~Tim

[Hudders]

"They only have one flavor of Ramen Noodles in the whole country!"

Sorry to have to be the one to break this to you, but I've never seen Ramen Noodles for sale here in the UK. The only time I've ever heard of them is through US media.

Timosity: Trying to move to Australia is much much harder than moving to the UK! You certainly couldn't get in if your plan is "working at McDonalds", you need to show yourself as holding skills that are in demand. TBH, it's a system I entirely agree with; we should have the same rules here. I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.

My advice to juncmodule is to get a job in the US that has some kind of career prospects first and then look at emigrating. As an unskilled worker, you're competing with far too many people and if you're not offering anything more than everyone else you're just going to be passed over due to the complications in employing you.

[juncmodule]

I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.

Ahhh, xenophobia, awesome.

If London doesn't work for you, you can come over here...

Thanks Timosity! I have been thinking about other countries. Spain has come up due to employment opportunities, but this isn't a priority for me. France is pretty big on my radar, but the language barrier makes me hesitant. Australia is also of interest due to the lack of language barrier. I'm honestly not sure why I haven't given it more thought than I have.

And all treatment on the NHS is free, you only have to pay for prescriptions (at £6.75 an item), though those are free if you're under 19

This really sounds amazing. I can not even begin to describe the burden this would relieve regarding raising a family. No matter what type of employment you have in the US there is no guarantee that your health insurance will take care of you. Co-pays and other nasty loop holes that health insurance companies in America find to not treat people is a little disturbing. I will have to look into it a little more.

As an unskilled worker...

Didn't mean to mislead anyone here. McDonalds is meant to be more of a metaphor for a low paying job, not an actual potential employer.  The point of bringing up low wage jobs was to get some info about any potential worst case scenarios. I am anything but an unskilled worker. Before leaving the country I do hope to at least have my Bachelors degree. As I said, I may also pursue some educational avenues to get into England. Perhaps getting my Masters and PhD there. I also understand you folks are in dire need of some truck drivers. I'm not sure how much good an American commercial drivers license will do me, but I imagine it wouldn't hurt.

An idea that came up today which I'm a little excited about is telecommuting. I thought I wouldn't be working for my current employer over the summer so looked into some web jobs elsewhere. I was impressed with the number of telecommuting web development jobs I ran into. I was speaking with my boss about this and he said that most countries would be very excited about this, because I would be bringing in an income from outside the nation. I would be like a little profit machine. Wee!

later,
-junc

[Nikolas]

To comment a bit futher for NHS. Treatment is free and is good. GPs will take you in most of the time at the same day, but then again not all GPs are that good, and as general practisioners, they do tend to... not be thorough.

also about prescriptions (because I just got my kids to the GP today, so I was reminded of that): It is 6.75£ except for people under 16, or 17,18 under full education. Above 60 as well. And another 8-10 other reasons for you to get free prescriptions. But what I find best, is that (in Greece) not all drugs cost the same. I've seen antibiotics at the price of 100+ euros. The idea that, everything is free and you don't pay for the drug actually, but for the handling is awesmoe

TBH, it's a system I entirely agree with; we should have the same rules here. I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.

hmmm... this definately deserves a new thread, but I'll let it pass for now.

[Hudders]

I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.

Ahhh, xenophobia, awesome.

I didn't mean for it to sound like xenophobia. I'm all for you coming here on holiday or coming over and working if you're going to fill a position that would be worthwhile.

To comment a bit futher for NHS. Treatment is free and is good.

...and oversubscribed.

TBH, it's a system I entirely agree with; we should have the same rules here. I can't say I'm flattered by the prospect of another immigrant being added to the job pool of an entirely over-subscribed employment sector.

hmmm... this definately deserves a new thread, but I'll let it pass for now.

You're a skilled worker, Nikolas. I don't have anything against people coming here and doing a job that they're trained in and are good at. I just think it's a shame when people migrate here just for the sake of it; I think it's a shame anyone migrates anywhere without contributing in some way to the country they move into.

[Nikolas]

So, in your opinion, people should unsubscibe from NSH (no matter the consequencies?)

You're a skilled worker, Nikolas. I don't have anything against people coming here and doing a job that they're trained in and are good at. I just think it's a shame when people migrate here just for the sake of it; I think it's a shame anyone migrates anywhere without contributing in some way to the country they move into.

Also the fact that I'm a skilled worker has extremely little to do with me being here in London:

A. I'm studying in London, which means I'm paying tuition fees. Plus rent, food, nursery and whatever else.
B. I am working, but I'm working with people outside the uk (Japan, Greece and Canada at the moment). So I'm not getting any money from UK citizens. On the contrary I file my taxes here in the Uk, instead of Greece (although Greek). Of course, since I'm a full time student I can earn quite a lot of money without paying taxes  . but still I actually intend to keep my tax records in the UK, indefinately.

In all me and my family are bringing money in the UK, and not taking it out...

Same happens with most people. In the end they live there, they pay a rent, they pay a bank for their new house, they pay sky, and whatever else.

People move for tons of reasons. Migrating because you're unhappy in your country is a highly respectful reason for me.

[Hudders]

OK. Let me clear this up a bit.

I'm certainly not one of those "send 'em back" type people who consider all immigrants to be a drain on the economy; taking jobs that would otherwise be filled by UK citizens or using up all the benefits. I don't mutter racial epithets into my Daily Mail or take exception to anyone who isn't white and middle-class. I certainly didn't mean to imply that as an immigrant you were being given a free ride and weren't contributing.

My comment about the NHS was not that everyone should stop using it but that it should be better. There are far too many people and not enough NHS doctors to go around; often you will wait months for an appointment. Certainly it is a better service than is provided in the USA but it still requires refinement.

TBH I suppose my problem isn't with immigrants at all: I hold the same bias against people of my own country who are content not to make an effort.

[Becky]

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had too much of a problem with the NHS (pretty much always able to get appointments with a GP within a day or two, waited 8 weeks to see a specialist).  Of course it's not perfect, and I never meant to imply it was, but from a purely monetary situation when considering the costs of treatment for a family the NHS has several benefits.

[Hudders]

I don't know, maybe I'm just lucky but I've never had too much of a problem with the NHS (pretty much always able to get appointments with a GP within a day or two, waited 8 weeks to see a specialist).  Of course it's not perfect, and I never meant to imply it was, but from a purely monetary situation when considering the costs of treatment for a family the NHS has several benefits.

Yeah, I'm not saying the NHS is the worst system in the world, because it's blatantly not. But if you need an operation you'll have to wait months if it's not life-threatening or if you have to spend any time in hospital you soon see how overworked the staff are and how bad a state the facilities are kept in. All this is exhasperated by the fact that you could choose to go private at any point and for the sake of a few thousand pounds, the same doctor that you've been waiting almost a year to see does your operation the next day.

[Pumaman]

Whether the NHS is any good depends on which way you look at it.

On the one hand all treatment is "free", which is a good thing.
On the other hand, this is paid for by having high taxes, which is a bad thing.

18% of tax revenue is spent on the NHS -- so the question is, if you could have an 18% tax cut, but have to get private medical insurance instead, would you take it?

[tube]

18% of tax revenue is spent on the NHS -- so the question is, if you could have an 18% tax cut, but have to get private medical insurance instead, would you take it?

I guess this could be considered a good move for anyone who pays a lot of taxes (ie. has or makes a lot of money). At the same time it would effectively stop less fortunate people from getting any medical treatment at all. So yes, that might be the sensible if selfish thing to do if you can afford it, but personally I think the benefits of the system are worth the so called sacrifice. I know I've had cause to thank the Finnish equivalent of your NHS. Even though it has it's obvious flaws.

[juncmodule]

Just wondering if someone could verify some numbers for me. Since I found some of the reference for the numbers on the web I just want to see if they are up to date and realistic. All amounts are in £ not $.

One Bedroom Flat rent/month £800
Flat Bills/month £200
Groceries/month for two £240
restaurant meal (4 time/month for two) £160
Zone 1-6 Travelcard/month for £328
Movie Theater (4/month) £80
Movie Rental (4/month) £16
Spending/month £160

Total/Month: £1984 Net
Taxes: £400
Gross: £2400/month

Wage 1: £5.70/hour at 40hrs/week for two - £1824/month Gross
Wage 2: £7.50/hour at 40hrs/week for two - £2400/month Gross

Thanks!

later,
-junc

[Nikolas]

Depends on where you live and how you live and what work you do and all that really...

For example

In my case:

2 bed flat, with 3rd box room for a studio and 2 baths: 1000£ (but it's in zone 4, and not close to a tube station)
bills: 150£, but no sky
groceries: much much more, since I have 2 kids
restaurant meal: definately less than 40£ per meal, I'd say.
travelcard: Why on earth should you want a 1-6 travel card if you live on zone 3, or 2 as it seems from the rent?

the wages are for untrained, as I see it.

Either way you can get pricer than that but definately cheaper than that as well...

In all, if you don't have much money, you can def, live much cheaper than that. All students do after all (Exception the rent, which is huge actually)

But keep in mind, that my post is based on my experiences, alone, since I'm not Brittish, so truth to be told I could be a bit off. But I've also changed 3 houses (all rents) and been going out and living normally...

[Hudders]

I think you've overestimated your grocery bill for two people, you could easily live on £170 a month. But you've probably underestimated how much it would cost to eat out, if you're talking London prices.

Minimum wage is £5.52 for 22 and over but only £4.60 for 18 to 21 and £3.40 for 16 to 17, (that's before tax). I don't know what they pay in London for McDonalds-esque workers but round here, we're definitely talking minimum wage.

[Nikolas]

Actually I just went out yesternight to an Indian restaurant (love indian food), in Ealing Broadway (zone 3, but it is a "center" of something anyways).

2 adults and 2 kids.

1 starter
2 main courses
1 special rice
1 nan
6 papadams (!)
4 pints of beer

remember it is 4 mouths to feed.

The bill came out at 35£, including service charge (10% ?)

It really depends on where in London you're talking about. Cause in soho you can get "all you can eat" medium-bad quality chinesse for 6.25£ a person, and get it over with...


Best idea you can do is to visit www.tesco.com and check out REAL prices there. Just make a fake account that you live somewhere in London and order your whole monthly groceries, just to see the bill.

Visit www.thames-water.com/ for the water bills, to see what they charge and how (water is not really that expensive)

Visit www.southern-electric.co.uk/ to see electricity bills and www.britishgas.co.uk  for gas prices...

This covers groceries and bills.

For rent the best idea is to find 2-3 different estate agents to check prices again:
www.foxtons.co.uk/  (largely expensive really with plenty of fancy stuff but they cover most of London)
www.townends.co.uk/  (less fancy, almost as big coverage and expensive though)
www.rightmove.co.uk/  (general with plenty of options and estate agents in there).

With a bit of searching and changing options you'll see what you can get for how much and where. As a very general rule, west and the general richmond area (southwest) is more expensive than the north and the east. At least to my knowledge...

Wages I don't know much, but it seems reasonable to what hudders says...

hope it's helpful

[Becky]

If you're in London an Oyster pay-as-you-go travelcard is probably cheaper than a Zone 1-6 one (especially as you won't be using the full distance).

[Hudders]

The bill came out at 35£, including service charge (10% ?)

I must admit I probably get suckered into tourist prices when I go down there. Either that or we eat out with my godmother-in-law who is loaded and therefore doesn't think anything to spending £90 on lunch.

[juncmodule]

the wages are for untrained, as I see it.

Either way you can get pricer than that but definately cheaper than that as well...

Yup, keep in mind I'm trying to figure for bare minimum here. If you can feed a family of four on £35 then I don't think I will have any problems. My £40 came from an estimate of £20/meal I saw for a mid grade restaurant. The estimate didn't indicate if it was for one person or two so I just doubled it. While I don't think we will be eating steaks once a week, and all-you-can-eat places scare me, it is nice to grab a bite to eat after a movie.

Minimum wage is £5.52 for 22 and over

Excellent, thank you. I'm assuming that is for all of England? So in London I would hope that they cushion that a little for folks. I'm thinking I've overestimated and underestimated enough that the numbers all balance out in the end. Since no one has thrown up any huge red flags I'm feeling okay so far.


So using those numbers and adding a couple other horrible monthly payments I will be making:

-------------------------------
Student Loans: £300/month
Retirement Savings: £200/month

Total/Month: £2484 Net
Taxes: £1000
Gross: £3484/month

Wage 3: £22.00/hour at 40hrs/week for one - £3520/month Gross - £45760/year
-------------------------------

I guess I need to be hunting for a job in £45k range to start. My hope is that it isn't a lot of money for the London area. I'm guessing in other areas that would be equal to about £40-£43k.

I'm a little concerned about this because most wage estimates I've seen have been closer to £35k/year for anyone with a BA. Keeping in mind that my BA will be in Humanities (Comparative Studies) so typical college graduate wages are lower for me. Considering the fact that in the US having a BA is not much better than having a high school education I'm just not sure if I'm going to be able to hit that wage to start.

I have been considering changing my major to Communications Technology (Web Design) and I expect that the wage for that will be much higher. I guess I will start digging into that a little more.

Thanks everyone for your input. Extremely helpful!

later,
-junc

[Becky]

Um, £45k a year straight out of uni is -very- unlikely.  Seriously, I think the average graduate first job is around £18-20k, especially in humanities.  I think you're being incredibly optimistic about your earning power.