My band went into the studio!

[Helm]

If he wanted critique, don't you think he would've posted in the critic's lounge?

Actually I think that unless there's a big ol' "FEEDBACK: ENCOURAGING ONLY" (which I find counterproductive, but I can live with) in a post, everybody is free to speak their mind, be it here or anywhere else.

[Andail]

Jesus, stop being so sensitive, and stop jumping on bandwagons. Someone started attacking Helm for being blunt etc, then suddenly a whole bunch of people jumped right on. Even though Evil's post was much more criticising and less constructive. MOB MENTALITY.

It is always ok to give opinions in this forum. You know why, boys and girls? Because this isn't someone's personal homepage. This thread isn't Cameron's own private myspace page. He didn't pay to advertise on this board, so he can't dictate what people may say and may not say. What people can say here falls under the regulations and policies of this forum, and please, please let us moderators tell people what they may or may not say. 

As for the music.
No, it's not original, not original at all. It sounds like Jimi Henrix riffs with 60's pop melodies. But it's still really good. I've done music recording myself and I know how darn difficult it is to get it sound even decent. And this sounds really good. But it's not going to make headlines for being innovative or original.

And in the long run, aspiring artists like Cameron will benefit much more from being challenged and questioned and provoked than from being petted on his back from people who just wish to appear friendly. Learning is a painful process. If it doesn't hurt, you're not learning anything.

[Nikolas]

Sorry Andail.

Same applies for Helm then and his public posts, correct? I can really really nicely critic the way he posts, and the way he handled any situation here. Of course he didn't have a "what do you think about my 200 latest posts", but still I do feel that a forum open minded should be able to handle that.

That just to correct you mate.

Now onto Helm.

At first I felt akward at his post cause this thread was not in the CL forum, as SD pointed out. Then I saw the "tell me what you think", and I thought that this qualifies as asking for feedback. And then I kept asking myself why Helms' post bothered me? And this is maybe why I came late in my reply.

I can now see that his feedback, although correct, since he's speaking the truth, was unplaced and uncalled for, for many reasons.

Somehow Helms' initial post felt more like a little bashing, a little "I'm superior than you, thus I can say this", a little non constructive... Cause there really is little reason to tell to someone that he is not original, especially when it is their 1st time in a studio. There should always be benchmarking to see where one stands before starting to provide feedback, and in the case of Cameron all one could say is "well done on your first effort.". Let him attempt the studio again to see what he'll do. Not to mention that I don't see anything constructive in this thread for Cameron really. Many people like his/their music and would like to support him somehow, some people don't, some think that he's a bit off with his wordings. 

guys, there are millions (I do believe that there are millions) of myspace pages, and definately 99.9% are not professionals by any manner, nor most of them strive to be, or even dream. Myspace/soundclick is just free webspace, with the addition of the community. don't confuse what one would do to a pro composer, pro record, pro band going public, and a band whose done the very first steps. For gods shake. Would you go and tell a kid of 2 years old, who just started walking what he's doing wrong the way Helm did? Prolly not...

By all means I'm not the guy who will go "well done" and nothing else, but there are different ways to do it and different reasons adn for different people. And you know that I can take feedback in what I do, furthermore I ask for it.

[Helm]

Cause there really is little reason to tell to someone that he is not original

How about when they write in their myspace page "Sounds Like: Us, sounding like other people is shit. You should sound like who you are." Did you notice that?

By all means I'm not the guy who will go "well done" and nothing else

But this is exactly what you did. This doesn't help Cameron.

You say that my way of critique was inappropriate. Cameron himself said he agrees with me now (after telling me to go fuck myself), so I can only assume that after the initial drama, I have helped. So why are you, or anyone else playing dad here?

[Nacho]

All that "feelings" towards Helm's first post are, as all the "feelings" argueable. I see nothing bad in his posts in this thread, therefore, if you see something wrong, there must be a previous grudge... Sorry Nikolas, but if everything is argueable, your post is as well. I think it makes no sense at all and it's oportunist.

"I respect you, but fuck off" That childish reaction has been written in this thread, and nobody mentioned it. Now, where is the "This community is utterly different sometimes" Huw?

As said, I am open to discuss about "hard" posting, but when THERE IS an actual hard posting, and not a mob reaction based on oportunism and previous grudges.

So, if someone wants to go on with this, open a new thread. Cameron asked our opinion, and some of us gave it. All the rest (including my posts getting involved into Helm' s issue) should be omitted.

P.S. And sorry Nikolas, you know I love you. We had zillions of laughs at msn, but I honestly confess that I' ve thought that you are the King of the uncalled "Well done" replies before. I open CL, and there are 3 replies by you, telling to the teenager newbie that his latest stickman is an awesome piece of art. 

[Nikolas]

first things first.

Please quote the whole sentence when you quote me.

By all means I'm not the guy who will go "well done" and nothing else, but there are different ways to do it and different reasons adn for different people.

This is the whole quote you should've used, which is completely different than what you are trying to put in my mouth. I analysed in my previous post why I didn't say anything further.

I started writing a huge post, but never mind.

what needs to be said is this.

you are right in what you say, there are definately better ways to accoplish the same result.

Feel like keep defending your right to critic and so on and the way you did it because in the long run it will benefit Cameron or anyone in his situation, go ahead... I told you my thoughts...

EDIT: Nacho, I can go on and show you plenyt of CL posts where I go "Well done mate, maybe this and maybe that...". with you on MSN I have rarely something to mention really regarding critic. Check with Vince and see if I can provide valid feedback or not. My point is exactly this: I don't critic away no matter what! I choose the timing and the person to do it... (btw, check a couple of threads made by Greg (Geoffkhan) to see how nice feedback I can provide...). Nope mate, I'm not the king of "well done". Just know when to give feedback and when not.

Double Edit:

Opportunist, Farl ? I have to admit that there have been troubles with Helm from my way from his way from both ways, dunno... I try to believe that I have gone through it and forget all about it. My post makes perfect sense in protecting Cameron, and boosting his confidence a bit further. Sometimes this is all there needs to be...

[Jesus Juice]

It's kinda depressing a concept. I don't like your music much, believe it to be extremely derivative, but it's well-made mostly (a big-time producer would make it sound very marketable) and if you keep at it, you might make it big.

Perhaps I lack imagination but I truly have trouble seeing how anyone can take such feedback onboard and alter their music in a positive way from those two sentences. As such, I am unable to define that as "constructive criticism." So I suppose the question is: what kind of criticism is it? And to what purpose was it posted? Perhaps the statement that they could "make it big" as an unlikable coporate rock act was actually intended as a sincere and heartfelt compliment and not as a backhanded insult? Who knows, perhaps it was.

[Nacho]

First... I never said that I think that you don' t give positive feedback. Positive feedback can be given with the positive attitude of yours, as well.

Second. Of course I can be wrong. Maybe you are not to open to say "well done" as I thought, but that was my initial feeling, without making a macrostudy, graphic charts, or complicate figures... I will see your posts with magnifier now, to see if my intial feeling was wrong, and if it is, I' ll apology to you.

But...

Even if I am wrong, I think that this would prove that the spirit of the replies can be missundestood, since I honestly thought you were "mr. Well done!" man, and you are not, so... maybe you should also reconsider your attitude towards Helm's posts, because maybe you are so wrong as I was before, no?

Nacho wins again!  

EDIT: Yes, Nikolas, I think that you have been opportunist here, since you are attacking a sinner (Helm) now, when, in my opinion, there has been no sin. Again, my opinion. If you honestly think that there has been a sin, you shouldn' t be opportunist from your point of view, which is really the point of view that matter.

[Nikolas]

Reply to your edit:

I don't think so. I do think that I gave a really analytical post regarding what I think and MY POV. This can hardly be considered an attack! And I didn't even think of calling Helm a sinner, additionally I mentioned that his critic (the point he made) is right!

Now, just some insight on how I think:

Because I teach in the uni, and in private lessons, you need always to take into account the person you're teaching and judge. I try to do that and see how it goes. I know for example that Geoffkhan and Mash potato can take all my critisism. I also know that fluke is also open to what I say. Thus I shoot away. I didn't know if Cameron was up to it (prolly not, as it shows), but further I didn't think it would benefit him, since he was obviosuly SO proud of what he did, to start criticising away, without even mentioning any merrits at all...

I think you'll remember my many times post "I'm no graphic guru, so wait for others, but here and ...". I mention this as really I know very little about graphics and act out of instinct. sometimes, when I see someone who is doing his best, there is little reason of showing him what the great masters could do, and thus send his works to rubbish (no, Helm did NOT do that here, or in any case that I'm aware of).

Bottom line, he could've said things much better, and Cameron could also use an apologise from Helm. This is how I see it.

As for Helm vs Me. I hope that I've grown through this. Do you recall me telling off to Rental shutdown in a flukes thread? Or to SD? Ot to Adam for posting too much, or whatever? I do tend to speak my mind... I enjoy more and more Helms' posts and I can read through his words to take what's positive in them. Plus I have decided and hardened myself (not because of Helm, Christ no), so I can take pretty much almost anything...

By all means, this probably needs to end...

I hope I haven't offended Helm. I was simply speaking my mind.

I like what Cameron did and for a 17 year old it's great, judging from what he's done before! Do post again Cameron! I'm looking forward to more of your music (and btw, quit that original thingy from myspace, indeed )

Nacho won already, no reason for Nik to try anything at all

[Helm]

Perhaps I lack imagination but I truly have trouble seeing how anyone can take such feedback onboard and alter their music in a positive way from those two sentences.

I don't know what to attribute it to, you know better. But yes, perhaps you lack something or another.

As such, I am unable to define that as "constructive criticism." So I suppose the question is: what kind of criticism is it? And to what purpose was it posted?

Are you asking me this? Or are you engaging in dialogue with yourself?

Perhaps the statement that they could "make it big" as an unlikable coporate rock act was actually intended as a sincere and heartfelt compliment and not as a backhanded insult? Who knows, perhaps it was.

I have no love for corporate anything, and I do not think 'making it' should be a priority for artists, but the music Cameron is making, supposing further benefit from wise-old-producers, can be marketed and liked and people can make money off of it. Anyone can make of this what they want. Cameron could be tomorrows' generic guitar pop superstar. I brought to his attention that his claims for originality were unfounded in my opinion, and that was that. The dark sinister motives I leave to you to map out, as you seem so eager.

[Nacho]

I am sorry... I think that "You are good! But not very original..." Can' t be expressed "in a so much better" way...  :

It's  not even a bad crit. If he is going to tell "Fuck you", to anyone criticising him, he should retire... now... quickly. If Cameron expects that every person opining about his work is going to do it in the gentle way that a good university teacher does, he should re-think about starting a career as a musician.

To be honest... To be terribly honest, I think he expected 50 replies telling him how good he is, and, as soon as the things twisted a bit (a bit) from the original script, he reacted in a childish manner.... Sorry. It's not the way a rockstar should react...  

And "sin" and "sinner" was a metaphor, my friend... End of the discussion from my point of view.  

[Huw Dawson]

Now, where is the "This community is utterly different sometimes" Huw?

I refuse to answer the question unless I understand the question, ergo I give no comment.

There are ALOT of unhappy feelings around here ever since that religious thread. I think everyone needs to bury the hatchet and move on really.

- Huw

[Nikolas]

Huh?

What unhappy feelings? towards whom? Now, HUw, I fail to understand what you're saying...

[Tuomas]

I think what he means is that he hates religious people, but hey, don't we all.

[Lucifiel]

Edit: Here're my opinions. Take them if you want. :p

Gone: Oh, the vocals and music were really shaky and basically, the band needed to get more coordination between the members. Sorry, I stopped listening before the song was done.

Midnight envy: Was this one recorded before the Tree Song? The music was a lot better in this one, than in Gone. Although, the vocals were still kinda shaky and still quite off-key.

The Tree song: Not bad even if you guys sound pretty similar to many other groups. There is still a future for you , man, because you guys play with emotion. Vocals really sound good in this one like you've just got a lot better. And it's because the singer got better and not because of production techniques, right?

My suggestions? Try listening to and experimenting with different cultural instruments and even different musical styles and genres. The following lines are my opinions: You could go pure in terms of genre but it's your choice, really. Still, many of the really good groups actually experiment with various instruments and genres and throw in lotsa crazy stuff like noise and melody, beats, etc. Be open-minded and try and listen to the cutting edge groups and don't follow trends. Set it yourself, man.

Stay away from highly repetitive chords because I truly suspect that's going to go out of fashion soon and you don't want to screw yourself over. Likewise, don't stick to some signature sound which starts to sound the same two albums later. Of course, you probably know that sometimes when people go for "trends" and "fashions", they don't go for the music. They're just buying the concept.

Also, I'm sure you know groups/singers like Sonic Youth, Cocteau Twins, Alice Cooper, X Japan, Explosions in the sky(slightly repetitive but still good), Kyuss, etc., etc., doncha?

[SinSin]

Im listening to the track (The tree song) rather than the arguement

I think its Cool but repetative, hang on ! I just heard the Keys
Yeah tis really nice but the production work needs a few tweaks here and there (although this is not a mastered track ) I got into the track and listened to all the different instruments and i believe the guitar needs some sort of extra warmth venting from beneath the base (if you get me)
If you add a little more warmth to it it would be spot on Guv
When the drummer is fully comfortable with playing the song get him to work on some fills and off beats especially at the 1. min point

Do not worry about originality (to what alot of people understand as being Original ) This is something which is born into a band, your contributions as a band as a whole depend entirely on what is born from it.
Good work so Far   
I cannot comment on Midnight envy as i thought it was to Oasis like (This is not a comparison i just wont listen to anything that reminds me of them )

I Feel that the track  The Tree Song makes you seem like a cross between
Jefferson Airplane and my mates band Banana Haze oh and a lil bit of Jimmy H
But it has the bold aspect of (note not musical ) Black Rebel Motorcycle Club

[Blackthorne]

Helm offered valid criticism, but you also have to think about the fact that he's very tenacious about what he likes - which is usually very specific and niche.  He makes music himself, and it's in a completely different genre than Cameron's music.

Not everyone is going to like "your shit" - especially when it has a more mass and commercial appeal than what they're into.  People with specific and niche tastes in art in music can often get upset when the genre they love, worship, adore and study isn't as popular as other forms.  Not saying Helm is like that, as he's a very intelligent and broad thinking chap, but I know a lot of people that adopt the "everyone else is stupid for not liking what I like" mentality.


Bt

[Sam.]

I think the most important resolution to this argument, is that I am playing the song on the radio, and you should all listen to me on the radio. This sunday.

[vict0r]

I'm sorry to say Zooty, but your website is darn hard to navigate on...

[Sam.]

Its not my website, it's the station's...and how is it hard to navigate? Just click "on air" to get to the schedule...

And click "listen now" to listen.


*falls apart in confusion