my friendz lesbian

[Dowland]

Kinoko, I can tell this is something you take to heart.

Your post made me laugh (that last sentence really cracked me up  ), however I do disagree.

First all, I disagree that figuring whether you're gay or not at an early age has anything to do with maturity. While maturity perhaps does factor in, would you say that someone who doesn't know whether he is gay or not is immature? Furthermore, bisexuality makes it all the more that it's neither one or the other, at a time in your life where you're urged to make a great deal of make choices.

Environment factors in. Family factors in. Life experience, friends, everything factors in. To say that maturity is what determines your own reaction to homosexuality is, IMHO, a dualist way to see things.

Second, it *may* be a phase and it may not. But saying that you can't assume that it's a phase is just ridiculous. You can't assume either way. Best way to react is be supportive, but not OVERLY supportive (ie.: "I now see you only as a lesbian, and to me, you're too far gone to ever be anything else"). It is so confusing, when you're *not* quite sure, to have your friends peg you down as either way, and not let you "change" (again, not saying it's a choice).

Last, the "be supportive" thing, while it is the obvious, reasonable reaction to adopt, is not the easiest thing to do. People have problems with homosexuals, God knows why (and yes, I know how that goes, I have born agains in my family *sigh*). That's a general rule. I may be naïve, but I'm hoping people who start this kind thread (who ask this kind of question), aren't hoping to get a "You should call your closest catholic evangelist center and have her committed" kind of answer.
Saying, "if you're incomfortable, it's your problem" doesn't help those people, and it doesn't help their gay friends/family (and it certainly won't help you). It's not *their* problem, because nobody is living in a bubble.

That said, it's good to be feisty, and it's good to not let yourself be stomped over by stupidity and idiocraty (because, the Lord knows how quickly you'd end up with a fractured rib, broken skull and shattered legs). Rather taking out the Uzis for somebody who probably just had trouble expressing themselves (really, saying "she is struggling with" it, doesn't automatically mean the poster has a Freudian, "it's a disease" kind of opinion) ... is a bit counterproductive.

[Kinoko]

First all, I disagree that figuring whether you're gay or not at an early age has anything to do with maturity. While maturity perhaps does factor in, would you say that someone who doesn't know whether he is gay or not is immature? Furthermore, bisexuality makes it all the more that it's neither one or the other, at a time in your life where you're urged to make a great deal of make choices.

*sigh* Okay, I didn't mean it the way you think. No, I wouldn't say that someone who doesn't know they're gay is immature, but as you said, it factors in.

Environment factors in. Family factors in. Life experience, friends, everything factors in. To say that maturity is what determines your own reaction to homosexuality is, IMHO, a dualist way to see things.

...and I didn't. Do we have to get into a discussion about the exact phychological factors surrounding homosexuality? I was just trying to say that you can't assume it's a phase, because for a lot of people, they know from an early age. It's a fact, and that's that.

Second, it *may* be a phase and it may not. But saying that you can't assume that it's a phase is just ridiculous. You can't assume either way. Best way to react is be supportive, but not OVERLY supportive (ie.: "I now see you only as a lesbian, and to me, you're too far gone to ever be anything else"). It is so confusing, when you're *not* quite sure, to have your friends peg you down as either way, and not let you "change" (again, not saying it's a choice).

But saying you can't assume it's a phase is ridiculous? No, it's not. You CAN'T. Just because you can't assume either way... I mean, that's a contradiction. I said to be supportive, but I didn't say go head over heels into supportive robot mode, did I? You can add your piece in, ie, "Be supportive, but not too supportive" without taking apart the things I said. I said 'be supportive', and I meant it. I don't think that statement implies "peg her down to it and make f*cking sure she doesn't back down, boy".

Last, the "be supportive" thing, while it is the obvious, reasonable reaction to adopt, is not the easiest thing to do. People have problems with homosexuals, God knows why (and yes, I know how that goes, I have born agains in my family *sigh*). That's a general rule. I may be naïve, but I'm hoping people who start this kind thread (who ask this kind of question), aren't hoping to get a "You should call your closest catholic evangelist center and have her committed" kind of answer.
Saying, "if you're incomfortable, it's your problem" doesn't help those people, and it doesn't help their gay friends/family (and it certainly won't help you). It's not *their* problem, because nobody is living in a bubble.

I said it's his problem if he liked her, and now finds out she's a lesbian, ie. Now she's out of reach, which is the 'vibe' his post gave off. Given that it was such a messy and barely comprehendable post in the first place,, of course I could have been wrong, but who the hell can make an accurate assumption. I assumed that's what he meant, and that's what I responded to. My implication was also that it shouldn't be HER problem. Whoever she is, she's probably having a hard enough time already without having to put up with his (possible) insecurities about the whole thing.

That said, it's good to be feisty, and it's good to not let yourself be stomped over by stupidity and idiocraty (because, the Lord knows how quickly you'd end up with a fractured rib, broken skull and shattered legs). Rather taking out the Uzis for somebody who probably just had trouble expressing themselves (really, saying "she is struggling with" it, doesn't automatically mean the poster has a Freudian, "it's a disease" kind of opinion) ... is a bit counterproductive.

Sure, sure, but again, I'm responding to the feelings I get, and I think I made my point anyway. I wasn't personally talking about other posters here, just the OP because again, the 'vibe' I got was that this was a problem and we were supposed to give him tips to 'save her' from the dark side, goth as she may be.

EDIT: Especially when it's phrased "someone going like that"... we can talk about exactly what was meant all we like, but come on, it has a real negative implication, anyone can see that. I'm sorry, but it makes me angry, and I just don't feel like being all 'guidance councillor'. Tough love has it's advantages ^_^ Sometimes it does someone good to get ridiculed. Like a slap in the face when a friend wants to hold a funural for expired milk.

EDIT2: Seeing as I think I've made my point (and in a much more serious way that I'd originally intended), I'm gonna leave this alone now and go back to my Cities of Gold.

[Dowland]

Kinoko, I wasn't personally aggressing you, but re-reading my post, it might have felt like it.

I have known, from experience, that many people's idea of being supportive isâ€"as a backfire of the at times homophobic climateâ€", indeed the "peg her down to it and make f*cking sure she doesn't back down, boy" (and those people generally think they're doing the person a service, by not letting him/her shy away, and constantly reaffirming support).

I'd generally say it's easier to fight unsupportive people, than to fight supportive people.




(Also, in a bout of irony, I'm quite happy to see this community has finally made the battle for better English, its own.  )


EDIT: Did you mean "Cities of Folds"?  Sorry! What's "Cities of Gold"?

[Meowster]

I can't believe serious discussion ensued from fluke's original post in this thread.

[Dowland]

Hey, what do you want ... “when life gives you lemons ...”

[Kinoko]

It's the most awesome series ever ^_^ I'm reliving my childhood watching it right now. Kind of... an animated tv series, Japanese/French co-production, based around the Incas. Actually, 5 minutes ago, it got really f**king weird, and now there seem to be aliens.

Re: English - I'm really happy to be apart of the battle for decent spelling/grammar on these forums, because it seems to exist nowhere else. The other forums I frequent regularly are almost impossible to follow...

Yutz: It's ridiculous, I know -_-

[Dowland]

When I want to relive my childhood, I watch Golden Girls (which I preordered the box sets as they where added to Amazon.com).

That apart, ... in the ways of awesome series, in the recent category, I'd have to put Veronica Mars. One helluva show, of which it's a marvel it survived through a second season (next year, on UPN).

Has nothing to do with manga ... but ...!

[simulacra]

i'm guessing this girl is the same age as you? 13? well, her hormones are probably tearing her apart right now, and any decisions about sexuality are not to be taken seriously. I know plenty of girls who thought they were a lesbian, and even had girlfriends when they your 14-15, but now they know they're not. Its probably just hormones. But if its not, well, theres not much you can do about it, all you can do is be a good friend.

Not being taken seriously is a major way of oppressing non-heterosexual people. I know plenty of girls who thought they were heterosexual, and even had boyfriends when they were your age 14-15, but know know they're not.

Never assume anything, but please do take people seriously. It is quite offending having to "prove" that you are one thing or the other. Why is it so hard to just accept people's sexuality without going "she's out of her mind because of the hormones" or "she's not old enough to be gay"? Why can't people be taken seriously even though they may change or redefine their sexuality later on?

Saying "it's just a phase, your sexuality isn't for real" is not very friendly in my humble opionion.

[Sam.]

i did not mean that deviations from "the norm" aren't to be taken seriously. I meant any decisions. You can't be fully able to say whether you are gay OR straight at this age becuase your hormones tell you something different every two seconds. To expand on my point, i know a guy who was adement he was straight at the age of 13, but now nows he is gay. Please don't assume im "oppressing non-heterosexual people". I frankly couldn't give a shit about sexuality, it doesn't affect me in any way. All i'm saying is that decisions of this nature cannot be seen to be set in stone, as you said, because until you're a bit older and a bit less hormanal, you can never know for sure.

[TheYak]

<summary in the name of efficiency>
Bah, more or less a lengthy post somewhere in between the two warring factions.

 

[Darth Mandarb]

Disclaimer: I didn't read (couldn't be bothered) the entire thread here ...

Flukeblake - you're what?  14 years old?  Your little "goth" friend is 13?

This is rediculous ...

"Well ... I'm just ... goth y'know?  I'm just sick of everybody telling me what I can and can't do.  I like girls."

Ugggghhh!

[napoleon dynamite] Gosh ... you're so retarded or something [/napoleon dynamite]

Jebuss ... you're frickin' children ... play with your GIJoes and your Barbies and leave sexual confusion until you're old enough to vote.

PS
When I was 14 I knew how to type/speak proper English too.  I know you kids these days think it's hip to be dumb, but seriously ...

[Ishmael]

Flukeblake - you're what?Ã,  14 years old?Ã,  Your little "goth" friend is 13?

He's profile says 12.

[Sam.]

no darf, it iz kewl to bee dum, u jzt donet no it, ure 2 oled to be kewl neway, and ure amerikan.

[Andail]

Flukeblake, please consider the 16+ age limit we have here.
And haven't we had enough discussions about homosexuality here already?