on the feeding of trolls...

[Ultra Magnus]

Please don't try to turn this into a situation where you get to play the bigger man.

I am actually, honestly quite offended by that. Congratulations. It doesn't happen often.

If Icey wants to equate this situation to bullying, that's up to him. That's usually the last resort of somebody who doesn't want to address their own behavior, and would rather appear to be victimized. The fact that you are choosing to buy into that doesn't automatically invalidate opposing points or make people into bullies.

I'm not buying into anything. I'm describing the situation as I see it from my point of view, just like you are. The fact that you don't agree with me does not automatically give you the right to just write my opinion off like that. The reason why I quoted Icey is because I figure if anyone was an authority on how he feels about this, it'd be himself. And, you know, sometimes when people say they're being bullied, it means they really do feel like they're being bullied. Sure, you can write it off as him just trying to get some sympathy if you want, but that doesn't change my opinion of the events that led to him saying it.

While a handful of people have, in the past, said something akin to "Please fuck off!" in response to some of Icey's threads, that doesn't prove that vindictive bullying is indicative of the community's response to Icey in general. Perhaps those people were just tired of having to deal with him.

Firstly, I didn't say anything about "vindictive bullying". Ask any playground bully about their situation and most will say something to the effect of "we're only playing around", but that doesn't mean that everyone involved feels the same way.
Secondly, I also didn't say anything about "the community's response to Icey in general". I said "some people".
Lastly, you seem to be equating bullying with direct attacks, whereas I specifically mentioned "constantly undermining [his] self-esteem". You may not agree with me that this constitutes bullying, so call it whatever you want, but it still makes me feel uncomfortable seeing it happen.

tl;dr - We disagree on how we see the situation. Fine. I'm going to bed.

[Darth Mandarb]

@TomatoesInTheHead - very good points!  I think another reason people attack a troll is in defense of the forums.  As I've said a troll can have a negative effect on a forums and people like their forums so they out swords and defend their castle!

The problem I have with this (and with, as you said, when they try to take the "I told people why not to feed the troll!" approach) is that, in the end, it's just feeding the troll anyway.  It's why, once I determine somebody is trolling I just don't reply to them (or the entire thread for the most part).  I just stay out of the thread(s) and don't feed the [ambiguously defined] troll.

[Icey]

@Ultra Magnus: I appreciated that you noticed I wasn't just using bullying as a excuse. And also noticed how I felt about the matter.

[DoorKnobHandle]

I don't even want to take a part in this whole discussion at large, just want to point out that NOBODY in this community has bullied you, Studio3, or any other member in the community one bit. If you act like an idiot over and over again, people will point it out and possibly get annoyed. That's understandable and nobody's fault but your own. That is NOT (cyber-) bullying.

[Icey]

Acting like a damn idiot is making a thread that is full of damn gibberish. bcsdubcucsodcfhcbsdonco dsc! = acting like a idiot. I merrily express a creation I came up with or I ask a question.

[LimpingFish]

I am actually, honestly quite offended by that. Congratulations. It doesn't happen often.

Then that makes two of us.

I'm not buying into anything. I'm describing the situation as I see it from my point of view, just like you are. The fact that you don't agree with me does not automatically give you the right to just write my opinion off like that. The reason why I quoted Icey is because I figure if anyone was an authority on how he feels about this, it'd be himself. And, you know, sometimes when people say they're being bullied, it means they really do feel like they're being bullied.

No, you came into this debate via a condescending remark...

Aahahahaha. Let's all point and laugh at the kid with learning difficulties. Aahahahaha. He seems to have trouble understanding concepts that I can easily comprehend. Aahahahaha. It's funny because he's inferior to me. Aahahahaha. We should taunt, tease, humiliate and generally bully him until he just GIVES UP TRYING TO DO THE THINGS HE ENJOYS AND FUCKS OFF! AAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

...while doing exactly what you are now accusing me of. You raised bullying, of which you have no proof or additional information, learning disability, which you also have no proof or additional information, and generally decided the whole point of this thread ("Let's all...") was to belittle Icey into leaving. You also decided that ("It's funny because he's inferior to me.") we are all elitist pricks.

So, basically, you have fuck all right to be offended.

Firstly, I didn't say anything about "vindictive bullying". Secondly, I also didn't say anything about "the community's response to Icey in general". I said "some people".

Which would explain...

This used to be a nice neighbourhood until that new kid moved in, now all the other kids have suddenly turned into bullies. They never used to bully each other, so we're entirely justified in blaming the new kid for being an easy target.

And...

If nobody else thinks that constantly undermining somebody's self-esteem for shits and giggles constitutes bullying, then I guess it's all fine.

To me, bullying someone for shits and giggles is vindictive.

You decided, based on a single cry of bullying, that Icey is a defenseless victim, and that you were going to show us what scurrilous pricks we all are. Congratulations. You have now validated Icey's behavior and given him a pass to label everyone who questions him as being a bully.

You've also made me go back and collect quotes and check my formatting while assembling this post, which is the worst offense of all.

I merrily express a creation I came up with or I ask a question.

I'm not the kind of person who types "sigh"...so I won't.

[Ultra Magnus]

Hyperbole, noun: Deliberate exaggeration or overstatement; especially as a literary or rhetorical device.
Metaphor, noun: The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn’t, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described.

I wasn't literally talking about a special-needs kid being picked on by the other kids in my neighbourhood. You clearly understand these concepts, otherwise you no doubt would have called me out for posting non-sequiturs. Therefore, I deduce that you are deliberately misunderstanding me in order to get a reaction. Therefore, you be a troll, and I be ignoring you now.

Night night.

[LimpingFish]

Hyperbole, noun: Deliberate exaggeration or overstatement; especially as a literary or rhetorical device.
Metaphor, noun: The use of a word or phrase to refer to something that it isn’t, invoking a direct similarity between the word or phrase used and the thing described.

I wasn't literally talking about a special-needs kid being picked on by the other kids in my neighbourhood. You clearly understand these concepts, otherwise you no doubt would have called me out for posting non-sequiturs. Therefore, I deduce that you are deliberately misunderstanding me in order to get a reaction. Therefore, you be a troll, and I be ignoring you now.

Night night.

What? Do you always conduct conversations in this pseudo-sarcastic, backwards talk?

I was calling you out on using the metaphor of a bullied retarded kid, real or otherwise, to draw a parallel with this thread and/or people's general behavior towards Icey; a silly, knee-jerk argument which brought nothing to this debate, and seemed to exist only to satisfy your own ego.

Regardless, Icey has mentioned both bullying and (weirdly) alluded to some form of learning disability in this very thread, which leaves your metaphor lacking in the metaphorical stakes. You see the predicament I'm in...are you telling me that your metaphor was taken out of context, or that it wasn't meant to comment on how you see Icey and our behavior towards him, but was only a meaningless glib remark, devoid of constructive debate, and purposely posted to get a rise out of...?

Hang on to that dictionary, though.

[monkey0506]

Why don't we all just get on with our lives and just see if I keep progressing our not. Not saying that you have to constantly watch me, just once in a while look at my post. That way you can't say I don't take any advice.

Because, honestly the three years you've been here has left us with an inadequate data pool to glean any idea of your behaviour; you know, like how it's humanly impossible to learn forum ettiquette within a three year time span.

Bloody hell I wish someone would come out and say I'm bullying this kid. I'm not joking, nor am I being sarcastic. I really, really would love to defend myself. See, coz time and again I've spoken out against him, but consider this. I have given him legitimate help and advice, and been ignored. I have provided example after example to try and help him. I've even gone so far as to say that I don't personally even view him as a malicious troll.

All this, and time and again he has failed to listen to or respond to me, personally. When he has responded it's been so far away from anything I said or meant as to obliterate the idea that he even reads my posts.

So please, please, please somebody call me a bully.

Oh, and I'm not feeling guilty. Not even. The reason I wrote this is actually what I haven't said yet. Everything I wrote above was about me, but I can and would defend Khris, LimpingFish, and Darth (amongst others) by the exact same argument. We've all done nothing even misconstruable as "bullying", provided our posts are actually taken into the context of the situation.

So I don't buy into this claim of bullying. icey might feel differently, but by the self-same reasons listed above, the bias of his opinion on the bullying issue negates it as viable. He has proven himself to not be reliably consistent in understanding what is being said to or about him.

I apologize icey if I have made you feel bullied, but I assure you that if I have that it was a misunderstanding. I'm sure the same goes for others here.

So, yeah..I don't believe that anybody has been bullying icey..not in the slightest.

[Stupot]

'bullying' might be the wrong word for this particular situation, but monkey, with respect, you do have one of the guy's quotes as your signature.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the intention behind displaying said quote in said signature was for it to be picked up on and laughed at by anyone else who might find it funny.  You certainly didn't put it there for its profundity.

If I were a more sensitive soul and someone used one of my quotes in such a way, I'd be hard pressed to convince myself I wasn't being a tad picked on...

...just saying  

[monkey0506]

Right, I forgot that saying anything that a self-proclaimed bullying victim has said is remotely humorous due to its total nonsensicality makes me Public Enemy No. 1. How silly of me.

There is a difference between a few pokes for fun which icey himself laughed about retrospectively and maliciously attacking and bullying someone..or so I have always believed.

[Jim Reed]

I think feeding trolls is bad, so I stopped posting on any threads icey starts. Yes, ICEYGAMES/STUDIO3, to make it clear. I also think he is a troll, and I don't like him. I think people who tried to help him out and then made fun of him are not bullies, just because they tried to help him first. I think (6 eyes already! =) ) that he should altogether stop posting here, go away and grow up, get literate, delete all his games, forget about game making and consider a career as a crash dummy for a third-rate parachute company from a fourth wold country. Yes, I am a bully, and I don't care about his feelings. Yeah, I thought him funny at first, then I even felt sorry for him, but now I changed my mind! =O
I think if people stop posting on his threads, he will get the message sooner or, more likely, later, and maybe go away. If it doesn't help, and he still insists making threads about his crappy games or whatever else that I find nerve grating, he should then be removed from here. If for some reason he is allowed to exist here, then make him send all his threads to me for approval, before he is allowed to submit them. Heh, a nice solution all around, even if it makes me obligated to act the part of a reject machine.

Yes, I don't like him so much, I would actually sacrifice my time on doing that pointless task.

I hope I have been offensive enough.

[Sam.]

this thread is six pages long as I type.


Is Darth the Ultimate Troll?

[straydogstrut]

I am quite alarmed by some of the responses i've seen here=(

I'm not fully aware of all this trolling that's been going on and I wouldn't have assumed Darth was talking about Icey. In his own words, he wasn't, he was just talking about trolling in general. The definition of a troll to me is basically the wikipedia one (as it currently stands):

"someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community .. with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion"

That might have been an interesting discussion, and could include debate about where censorship/reprimands etc are necessary. However it seems to have been largely ignored.

On the subject of Icey, from what i've seen (and I don't claim to have read every single one of his threads), I don't think he has done anything to fall under the above definition.

Yes, he needs to improve his spelling and grammar, and I applaud those people who have taken the time to point this out to him in a constructive manner. I would expect nothing less for my own posts. I do not, however, feel that his poor use of the written word deserves some of the derogatory comments he has received. He is trying to improve as far as I can see and I have seen far worse out there in the wild, believe me.

Yes, he posts a lot of topics. Again, I cannot claim to have read every one of these, but most of them as far as I am concerned are technical questions and announcements. I don't have a problem with either and genuinely find some of them interesting and helpful. I have also seen him make serious contributions of his own to other people's technical threads.

Yes, he has a fascination with Final Fantasy and his games step on the toes of copyrighted works. But in my opinion these are harmless fan games and i'm sure he is/will soon become aware of the legal issues should he ever wish to publish his games commercially. I know he has been made aware of this in numerous topics. I would like to see him work on something else, something original, so I think entering the next MAGS would be a good idea.

His games do seem to be unfinished, rough around the edges, and buggy, from the few i've tried, so yes, certainly this is one area where he could improve. But I don't feel it's right to shout down his attempts and ask him to leave the boards completely. We're not that kind of community, are we?

I agree that he could hold back a bit more before releasing, to make sure his games are polished, but that's not to say he can't start Games in Progress threads and Critics Lounge threads. He does, and still seems to attract unwarranted criticism. Who are we to say these are not worthwhile? He's doing what he enjoys and that's the most I would ask for. I would like to see a nice clean database with links that work and proper demo/full games, but I wouldn't single out Icey's games in particular. Besides, isn't that the whole point of the AGSArchives/Nimbus project anyway? At the end of the day, if a game doesn't interest me - anyone's games - I won't play it. No harm, no foul.

I don't think any of the above qualifies him as a troll and I personally have no problem with him. I'm saddened that there are so many people keen to spout vitriol on this subject however. Call it what you will, but there does seem to be a recurring theme of people undermining Icey's threads with derogatory remarks which I feel is uncalled for. It's not completely one-sided, no, but the tit for tat is horrible. Can't we all just get a long?

I can feel a disturbance in the Force. It is as if the sacred AGS forums were being divided into two...

I dislike this.

Perhaps it is time to end this discussion here, before any true damage is done.

Seconded. I would respectfully request that this topic be locked soon.

[Scarab]

There's a 'flag' in the member's table called isTroll (datatype: date/time).  When a person is determined to be a troll (admin consensus) that user is flagged as a troll and the date of the flagging is entered into the isTroll column.  From then on, all of the troll's posts/threads after the isTroll date will be invisible to all users except the troll themselves (and top level admins).  In this way no matter what the troll posts, nobody can see it.  So nobody replies to it.  Nobody feeds the troll and it slinks back to live under its bridge.

It works better than banning because banning is obvious to the troll and they can then just come back as a new member and start again.  If they feel the community just doesn't feed them, they aren't compelled to come back.

Works like a charm.

How has Icey avoided any repercussions? For every 'completed game' he has made there is a thread breaching the rules, and every in progress thread he has started but one has been locked for not following the rules.

I'm interested to know what the criteria for someone to be given an actual 'time-out' from the forums.

I don't think it would hurt to let icey take some time to grow up a little and learn to be not just more assertive when it comes to improving his coding ability, but to be able to communicate/behave maturely.

[m0ds]

It's just a rant thread. We're all so well mannered and calm usually, it's about time we had a thread where we can say "uck you"! And "uck this"! And "bully that 12 year old kid!" etc

I think it's fair to say that using the forums for technical advice is one thing - posting in the forums designed for community chat is another. And it's why a lot of people DO NOT. These are the boards where people get to learn your personality, and it can clash with other peoples - look at this thread for example, lots of disagreement and I'm sure people are thinking "Well I never thought that of you before".

I think that's how it goes on a day by day basis for some of us. It's just becoming more and more ridiculous how one man can be so deluded yet be so intent on living this delusion out, and effectively bringing it step by step on a day by day basis to the rest of us. Asking him to step out of this delusion and, going mad at him when he completely ignores you, is pretty natural and allowed IMO. But not bullying.

The fact of the matter is some of us here are adults yes and some of us here are kids, and often is the case that adults want to get away from kids, and vice versa.

I'm interested to know what the criteria for someone to be given an actual 'time-out' from the forums.

Usually, flagrant misuse of the forum and database would hold a high mark for a time-out, but it's usually verbal abuse that gets the final kick.

If someone is dumb and just being a bit dozy about what they're posting/putting up etc, it usually takes a few messages and a subtle PM of guidance here or there. It should not take MONTHS on end with very little change. I won't deny though that some sectors of younger people are just going to be more and more retarded by the year

[Darth Mandarb]

this thread is six pages long as I type.
Is Darth the Ultimate Troll?

You make a post that has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread, or even the off-topic discussion that has corrupted it, and toss an insult at me.  And I'm trolling?? 

That might have been an interesting discussion, and could include debate about where censorship/reprimands etc are necessary. However it seems to have been largely ignored.

It could have been very interesting! 

I am laughing (a bit) at how my original idea for the thread was pushed aside by the very thing that the topic was about!

I'm interested to know what the criteria for someone to be given an actual 'time-out' from the forums.

I think if there's a general sense/feeling that somebody is trolling (maybe an admin consensus since they are the ones that 'govern' the forums) the person in question gets flagged a troll.  I don't think it needs to be too complicated or involved because the beauty of my troll flag is that it's easily reversible. 

The 'time-out' period can be removed whenever it is desired.  I have it so that if/when a member that is flagged a troll creates a post/thread the post/thread is also flagged as 'isTroll' (it's easier to query this way but also it means after the member is taken out of troll status those other posts don't suddenly appear (because this could potentially lead to the trollish behavior being discovered and cause a new round of flaming/trolling)).

Based on what some have said in here though I'm now thinking I might need to adjust the settings for it a bit.  For instance if the forums had, like here, a tech-board to get specific answers for technical questions it might be necessary to leave certain boards open to trolls ... hmmm, an interesting thing to think on.

[Snarky]

Wait, we're not seriously discussing that as a solution, are we?

I am (perhaps not surprisingly) strongly against it. On general principles, I dislike systems that allow people to exercise power surreptitiously, because there's no accountability. In this case it's the difference between making an official arrest on the one hand and having people "disappeared" on the other. Certain people seem to just stop posting, and no one (outside of a small elite) knows what's happened to them, or that someone has used their power to control the forum. Nor do any observers learn that "act like that, and there will be consequences."

Sure, it's way more convenient for moderators, who don't have to deal with any fallout or risk provoking a response from the person labeled a troll. But maybe it shouldn't be so convenient. If some particular moderator action is going to lead to a big fight on the forums, maybe that means the community isn't on board with it. (And I know the forums aren't a democracy, but I think most of the same principles of good governance apply. There's a reason why habeas corpus is one of the oldest and most fundamental civil rights.)

Finally, it's a fundamentally unfair system because it by necessity cannot give the person being punished a chance to defend themselves or appeal the decision, since they don't know what's happened. I know from my own experience that the result is Kafkaesque. When I moved, I tried to sell most of my furniture and things on Craigslist. Craigslist has a system like this, where if it determines that you're a spammer, it will silently hide your ads from all other users, while having them seem to show up as normal for the poster. I don't know what tripped its algorithm. Too many posts in a short period of time? Several posts with similar text? Including links to other sites (to show the official product description)? Nothing is documented, and there's no way to find out and no way to complain, since Craigslist will never tell you that they've done this to you. It took days before I realized what was going on, and I ended up losing hundreds of dollars from things I couldn't sell in time before I left. I am still furious with them.

Sure, it wouldn't go exactly like that under this proposed system, but the experience of suddenly having become the invisible man, and of being caught in a trap you can't get out of, is similar.

At this point, moderators tend to say "You're being paranoid. Trust us! We're good guys. Have we ever abused our power?" Maybe not. But once a system like this is in place, there's no way to tell. And besides, the point is not that the moderators are power-crazed fascists. It's that they're human. They make mistakes, even as a group. They have their own biases and bad days and misunderstandings. If you look at this thread and all the accusations of trollishness that have been flying (and the lack of agreement), it should be worrying to think that people could be kicked off for that and no one would know.

[Matti]

Uh, what is the problem here and why should this forum possibly need a troll flag?

If you ARE talking about icey, Darth: If people wouldn't post so much in icey's worst threads then there wouldn't be a problem at all, they'd quickly disappear in the abyss of the forums. Also, since you don't have to open such threads, there isn't any problem in the first place.

If you are talking about the people who do so: Should everyone posting in icey's threads be flagged as a troll?

[WHAM]

A few years back I created some forum software (using coldfusion) and I addressed the issue of trolls as follows:

There's a 'flag' in the member's table called isTroll (datatype: date/time). ...

I think a system such as this would be a welcome addition and a great tool in keeping the forum's clean. As far as I have seen our admins are quite active and manage to do a good job overall, so using this kind of tool in a fair manner should not be too difficult. The internet has changed in the last few years, "trolling" and generally "being an ass" has become far more common and I think every site on the internet needs tools such as these.