PEGI/ESRB and Amateur game ratings

[blueskirt]

While you can do anything you want concerning auto censoring or rating (not sure how it should be called), I'd like you to remember that we have the privilege of not being censored or rated and that mentalities evolve by provocating reactions, that you always need to push the limits farther if you want to the taboo subjects to stay open and continue to be discussed and debated.

While auto rating your own games may be nice because it warn people from your game's content, it also shield people from whatever message or idea you wanted to vehiculate, and in the end, people that would probably have benefited from this provocating will end still living in their little bubble where absolutly nothing will ever shake the foundation of their life, change their mentality or expose them to different point of views. It's pretty much like those "Warning: Political/religious thread" warnings in the title of debates thread. A lot of people just say "Meh." and automaticly move away by fear to be confronted to other people's opinions.

I don't think we'd have been the slowly more and more open society we are today if we didn't had all the David's statue, Story of O, Ceci N'est Pas Une Pipe, Elvis's dance moves, The Clockwork Orange, Fight Club, etc.

As for the professionalism bit, the games and movies industry do it because they are forced to if they want their products to be on the shelves. That doesn't automaticly mean they do it because they want to.

My two energy credits.

[Erenan]

Primate vessage coming your way soon, Eneran

Got it. Responded. Funny, at my former forum, misspelling my moniker in various ways was a big traditional running gag. And... um... mentioning that probably spells doom for me.

I don't think we'd have been the slowly more and more open society we are today if we didn't had all the David's statue, Story of O, Ceci N'est Pas Une Pipe, Elvis's dance moves, The Clockwork Orange, Fight Club, etc.

Of course, often the people who want to censor and rate and etc. are the ones who have demur with said openness.

[Alynn]

Well, much has happened while I was sleeping. I've encountered outright anger, indifference, and in some cases acceptance. What actually surprised me is how much acceptance, in all honesty this has gone over better than I hoped.

It is possibly the way I approached it. Perhaps if I said, "Hey I have this idea and I'd like for you to help me flesh it out," it would have been less hostile. But instead I said I developing this for the amateur gaming community. Which is no less true now than it was when I started it.

However, I want to thank everyone here that has contributed. That includes those of you against this system. Conversation, while heated stayed mostly on topic, and stayed into debate stages. It has not turned into a flame war, and honest discussion over this system has taken place.

And I wanted you all to know I appreciate it.

As to many of the concerns that were raised while I was sleeping... one is a regulation aspect... An aspect that I wanted to avoid completely, but the fact is, there are people out there that lie, and would purposely join the system, just to buck it. Which leaves me to believe that there should be some sort of email address to where people that have been decieved can send complaints. What's left is a blacklist system where people can check what sites claim to be EAGMA but because of lying, aren't.

Something I'm tossing around now.

Again, thanks for the good debate, it's brought up many things I haven't thought of yet.

EDIT: Erenan, ask those around that have seen me on the forums and the IRC channel for awhile, I am not a prude. I'm a very open person. I personally have nothing against anything or anybody. I just thought of an informational system, not a way to keep people from making the games they want, or people from playing the games they want.

[Erenan]

I didn't mean you, Alynn. Actually, I'm often the one irritated with said openness. At least, when it gets out of control.

[Dan_N]

Good morning.

Evil is now sleeping so I thought I'd post.

Well, Alynn is onto something and is just providing an informational service. Information, apparently these days, is our most valued comodity.
Indeed, people might steer away from the game if they see an icon depicting violence, but the general message is conveyed via the review. That's how the people still play your revolutionary, tabu game.
If the review says "Play this revolutionary tabu game, but mind the icons" and there are icons for extreme violence (i'm taking the example of 5DAS, which was quite a good game, but in true yahtzee style it was full of violence).
By the way, what is Mittens anyway and where do you sign-up for this EAGMA?

...

EVIL TWIN: Hey, bro!
GOOD TWIN: (oh crap he's up) Hey, Evil!
EVIL TWIN: Wassup?
GOOD TWIN: Oh, nothing...
EVIL TWIN: Whatcha doing?
GOOD TWIN: Erm... just-
EVIL TWIN: I see you're posting. Where's the little-
GOOD TWIN: He's not here, Evil.
EVIL TWIN: Well move over, I'm gonna slag someone!
GOOD TWIN: NO!
EVIL TWIN: Fine, but after I brush my teeth I'm gonna kick your ass!
GOOD TWIN: Yes, yes, whatever, Evil...

So anyway, that's my point of view and I apologise for what Evil might do: Sorry.

[Misj']

And no, I don't mean make games that people want to play. I mean make games that fit our individual visions without compromise. Just make what YOU'D like to play, and there'll be people to like them.

When did I ever say you should compromise?
When did I ever disagree with the statement that "if you make what YOU'd like to play, then there'll be people who like them"?
It is true that if you make something you don't really like, just because you think someone else will, it's a sure road to disaster.
But...
If you have something to say than you want people to hear it. And having something to say is what matters (and I don't mean that your message has to drip from the screen, or that everything has to be Disneyfied) .

Who are you and why are you telling me this as if I care?

Because you're 'partaking in this discussion to exchange views on the subject' (as you said it yourself). Which implies that you should care about what the others are saying. And that includes me. If you don't care, than you're not partaking. I made the assumption that you were. So I made the preassumption that you did care. If I'm wrong about that, than I'm sorry. But then again...if that were true, than why should I - or anyone else here (if you don't want to personalize it) - care about your views? - I cannot believe that you are sharing them with us in the hope that we 'just don't care'.

(By the way, why did you remove my smiley in your quote? - I put it there for a reason, so you - or anyone else - wouldn't fall over it the way you did. Apparently it didn't help).

Sorry, let me slap this WARNING: MAY EXTRUDE NEGATIVE AURA sticker on me. It's ok! I drew it myself!

You could use it as an avatar. Or - if you need more space - as a signature. I have no idea how many warnings you need.Ã, 

More talking to me as if we're engaged in some sort of personal discussion me and you. I don't know you, did I perhaps by accident talk about something you said in this thread previously?

Somehow I doubt that pressing the 'reply with quote'-button to a post of mine, removing all text but one line of the post, and replying to that can be considered an accident. But hay, if you say so...

I don't know you, did I perhaps by accident talk about something you said in this thread previously? Seriously, do we know each other? I am partaking in this discussion to exchange views on the subject, not to convince you personally of anything.

I was trying to make you show that you could think outside of the box you're currently in.
You haven't shown that.
It's a way to test how well someones views are thought out, while trying to keep the respect required for a fruitful discussion. To me you've failed that test. So I feel there's nothing else I can add to this discussion without either (or both) of us getting really annoyed by the other. I have no intention of that, and I don't think you have.

Anyway, I'm off now...until the next time at a different discussion. Who knows, maybe I'll be on 'your side' (for those who are about such things).Ã, 

Nothing personal, but 'till we meet again,

Misj'

Ps. I still think a system where people are in a simple way informed about the general atmosphere of the game a good idea. I do have my doubts whether it's achievable in such an extend that it's actually useful (more than two games have to use it, how can it be implied to free downloads, should there be a special icon: 'Helm Inside' Ã,  , will it induce censorship to be accepted for a certain rating, &c. &c.). I dunno...

[Helm]

When did I ever say you should compromise?

Making games that people want to play is usually mutually exclusive with making games without compromising. Bending to theoretical generic-gamer whims is what the big boys have to do. We don't.

If you have something to say than you want people to hear it. And having something to say is what matters

Well I am sorry to say, but if there's any communicational bent to the 'entertainment' you're putting out there, if you have something, anything to say, even if you don't know exactly what it is yourself, you're making art! Woo! Enjoy being like everybody else!

Because you're 'partaking in this discussion to exchange views on the subject' (as you said it yourself). Which implies that you should care about what the others are saying.

You misunderstand. I care about what people have to say on the topic. Not about their conceited ideas about how people like what they do as opposed to them not liking the art the rest of us do. If you wanna talk about yourself, find someone else to do this with.

(By the way, why did you remove my smiley in your quote? - I put it there for a reason, so you - or anyone else - wouldn't fall over it the way you did. Apparently it didn't help).

It was  taken out because when I select stuff to copy-paste, the browser doesn't lift smileys.

If you resort to a single smiley to carry the demeanor of what otherwise seems like a very insulting and arrogant statement like 'I don't make art. What I make people actually like' then don't be surprized when people call you on such bullshit regardless.

I was trying to make you show that you could think outside of the box you're currently in.

Don't patronize me. This presupposes you're outside all the little boxes looking at us struggling around our preconceptions. What makes you think I haven't at one time considered or even endorsed a lot of the ideas I am in opposition to now? Behave more like a person interested in opinions and less like a person here to guide us through the entangled forests of confusion into the pure, signular light in whose glory you seem to effortlessly bask.

I understand your point of view well enough.

Ps. I still think a system where people are in a simple way informed about the general atmosphere of the game a good idea.

Yea, how about the combined effect of a few screenshots, a plot synopsis and some bits of dialogue and stuff like oh, EVERYONE IS ALREADY DOING? Again, what earlwood said.



Ratings hold special social charges, special significance, and you should better realize that. They were devised by idiots to protect idiots from feeling like idiots. I don't see any need of them in the amateur community.

[Dan_N]

Then why don't you let us "destroy our own art" while you stand "above us and be all superior-like" mister "all-knowing helm"?

That was a bad think to say and I am slaping myself as we speak.

You speak of art, mr. helm, well elighten me, what do you understand through the word "art"?

[CaptainBinky]

Helm - are you this vehemently opposed to the ratings here at AGS?

No because an abstract 1-10 scale doesn't make moral judgements nor does it fragment 'potentially offensive' sequence from meaning. It's just an average of how the general public felt the game stood up to their expectations of play. Therefore,  useful on that level.

I was actually talking about these things:







As is the topic of this thread.

[Dan_N]

Yes!

So helm, what do you think of the site's ratings, huh?
When the site first proposed these, did you attack Big Blue Cup as well?

[veryweirdguy]

You speak of art, mr. helm, well elighten me, what do you understand through the word "art"?

If the term "art" could be clearly defined in a way that everyone agrees on then it is highly likely that this (and several other) discussion(s) could be easily resolved.

But if I were to quote a single definition of "art" from a dictionary I'm sure several people would dispute it in some way.

I've been sitting on the fence on this one for a couple of days but I think Helm & earlwood have got it about right. Telling people what is in your game before they play it defeats the purpose of having it in there in the first place, to a certain extent.

If people are offended by your content, then surely in a way you have suceeded in your "art"? Because if you did not wish to shock even a little by the extreme swearing & violence in your game then why did you put it in in the first place?

But if people choose to use this sort of thing in their game, I won't object. It's up to the individual in the end.

[Alynn]

Gentlemen,
Ã,  If you would, please do not turn this into an Us vs. Helm thread.

Helm stated his opinion, one that I understand his point. While I don't agree with it, I understand it, and I leave it be.

I am not trying to convince anyone to use this system, I'm really not. What I am trying to do is get ideas and opinions on how to improve a content advisory system, which I am completely removing the word "ratings" as it does have a certain negitive concious or subconcious tone.

I like this idea, if you like this idea then support it by interjecting with ideas and critiques of the idea to improve upon the idea.

Helm does not like this idea, repect Helm's opinion of the idea. He has every right and privilidge to dislike the idea as I do to like the idea.

I believe this conversation is prompting me to add a portion to the charter of repecting others opinions, which really, shouldn't have to be done.

People should do this anyway, at least in my opinion.

[Dan_N]

Indeed.

I respect helm's person and his opinions and ideeas, but why must he attack this system as oppressive and censoring. I should know about censorship, i'm easter european (romania, if anyone heard of that) and we got it bad. not that i lived those times (thank god, but then again life still sucks now too) but i have a hint as too what went on.

So, again this system is VOLUNTARY! and no-one will be forced into it.

Besides, i don't think a little icon saying: lots of swearing! will destroy the edge your game has. That is, unless when mouse is above icon a giant help-hint (or whatever those yellow things are) appears displaying the script of your game.

[Ghormak]

All Helm (and earlwood, whose posts you all seem to completely disregard) is saying is that what you're doing with content ratings is completely unnecessary.

Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. Nobody is attacking anyone.

[m0ds]

I've enjoyed reading Helm's responses.

And that's all I have to say on the matter..!

[deadsuperhero]

I think each rating logo should be horribly disturbing, in each of their own special ways.
(dead guy covered in blood) WARNING: this game is extremely gory
(guy getting head chopped off): WARNING: This game is really violent.
(two people screwing): WARNING: Sex Scenes.
(man smoking pot): WARNING: Drug use.
And put these logos right in the beginning of the game, so kids can't possibly miss it!

[Akumayo]

I've not got anything productive to say, really, but I thought I'd post to let you know, Alynn, that I think this is a really great idea.Ã,  If you get it up, I'll definately use it on any new games I finish.

[Helm]

Dan: If you wish to discuss something with me, first you need to approach me as a human being and not as the butt of your juvenile insults. I can easily mock you and humiliate you in return, but you don't see me doing so because I am not in this thread to attack anyone. That you see me take your bullshit without complaining should let you know that I have some tolerance for THIS IS THE INTERNET LOL people. But my tolerance is not unlimited.

Captain Binky: yes, I am against those sprites in the database as well. Thankfully they are small and extremely incomprehensible.

[Ali]

I can understand people's objections to the current rating systems and to the proposed rating system, but I think they can serve a purpose.

I enjoy dark themes, but I don't like gratuitous gore. A warning label could be useful for me because it would help me to identify something that screenshots and a synopsis might not. On the other hand, if I read a sufficiently compelling storyline I would be happy to disregard such a warning.

Content ratings are not necessary, but for some people they can be useful. The proposed system will be optional, so makers will not be compelled to apply the system to their work and players will not be compelled to pay the ratings any heed.

That seems like a happy state of affairs to me.

[biothlebop]

I agree with Ali.
Since the ratings are optional, the maker is actually creating the game he would like to play even if it has rating stickers (no compromising).

Even suggested standardised ratings/icons are fine by me since they are not only optional, but also easier for gamers to recognise content by.

In the end, anyone can still create their own game. Even un-rated games would still get downloads from non-rating-conformists, people that have seen violence before and those that don't fit into the two previous categories.

This debate somehow reminds me of the one in music with people who want to categorise music and those who don't. Guess I belong into the type of people who find genres as a useful tool for narrowing out information and my opinion is biased in that way.

I don't believe the ratings are more harmful than saying "made with AGS", which leads the gamer to expect a certain gameplay mechanic and development effort (assuming he/she knows what AGS is).

The current method used on these forums (1-2 screenshots + description/plot outline) is far more effective though, since a single word/symbol says less but still conjures a powerful image and expectations.