Pixel Joint - A gripe...

[Darth Mandarb]

I am not sure how many of you are members (or even know) of Pixel Joint but I need to vent here...

I am sick and frickin' tired of Pixel Joint.

The attitudes there are just lousy and pathetic.  I'm all for constructive criticism but the arrogance and flagrantly insulting attitudes there are so beyond pathetic it makes me nauseous.  I know we tend to have some elitism here at AGS (a little bit is inevitable) but the elitist pricks over there at PJ just plain ruin the place.

What the hell difference does it make if I want to use 5 shades of red instead of 2?  But holy fu**ing hell "you used 5 similar shades of red this piece isn't pixel art and shouldn't be allowed in the gallery!!"  I see it time and again over there.

Now I know it's not "my" site and I don't make the rules.  I get that.  I can understand (though I don't agree) with their definitions of what is "pixel" art.  I don't even mind that restriction.  What I cannot tolerate, and will not put up with, are the smug, elitist, and arrogant attitudes that come across over there.

I know I've seen some of you AGSers over there ... have any of you noticed the ridiculous way they treat people?

Mash I've seen you posting over there.  You don't get the abuse, mostly just drooling, but I wonder if you've noticed the piss-poor attitudes towards others?

My most recent piece (which I thought was rather nice) is receiving several comments on it ... and only 1 or 2 mention anything I want to hear.  The rest are just bitchin' and moanin' about "too many colors".  Who the hell are they to tell me how many colors I can or cannot use.  It's just plain ignorant and arrogant.

[/rant]

I wonder what people think about stuff like this?  I mean, there's nothing I can do about it ... I just wonder what others think/have noticed about it.

[CaptainBinky]

I'm not a massive fan of Pixel Joint either, to be honest. I presume that it's this thread that's sparked this off...

http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/29962.htm#

?

If so, in this particular case I can kind of see where they're coming from. Now I hate it when people complain about colour use nowadays - Oh noes, it's 32 colours THIS SHOULD HAVE BEEN 24 etc. That gets up my nose. However, from the looks of things this pic was a 24bit image saved as a 256 colour GIF which is kind of against the spirit of pixel art. There is a kind of spiritual differnce between bone-fide pixel art, and drawing in Photoshop using the pencil tool... and that difference is mostly about palette control. Whether your palette is 2 colours, 16, 32, 256 is irrelevant but the point is in pixel art you pick the palette manually.

So basically, it's a nice bit of 2D artwork in a pixel-art style but it's not bone-fide pixel art, so I can see why on a site dedicated to that specific art they would get wound up.

Cheers,

CapnBinky

[Dualnames]

Not much to say but yeah, ffs. Liked your response though. Color Nazis.

[Nikolas]

You know what though, Binky?

I've never seen anything like that happening in music, for example. I don't recall anyone going "hey! this is not an mp3, you shouldn't post here", or "hey! this is not an orchestral piece you shouldn't post here".

I'm sorry but the indicated thread (thanks Binky) is pethetic! The colo(u)rs (hehe) could very well be an issue, but what about a bit of normal feedback and critic? It's not a fucking 3-d monstrosity made with the Unreal engine or something...

And, above all, I have seen Darths work and he can pixelate. I do see what you mean about the 24-bit pic taken down (dithering?) but still this is a cheap way to cheat, and I wouldn't expect that from Darth. If morons feel that this is what he did, then... well... I hope they are wrong.

[Dualnames]

I wanna scream the following:"You can take my pencil, you can take my mouse,but ffs my imagination and creativity is mine.."

[CaptainBinky]

I'm not saying it's right Nik, just that I can understand it from a site dedicated to pixel art. If it had been posted on a general 2D art site then there wouldn't be any problems.

To use your analogy it'd be like doing a C64 SID chip tune, but actually using SID sounding synths. Posted on a music forum as "Here's my C64 style tune" and it'd get raved about. Posted on a C64 SID tune forum and you'd get a similar-to-pixel-joint response.

[Darth Mandarb]

The ONLY thing I did on that picture that was "cheating" was I created a shadows layer to get the color values for the shadowed areas and I duplicated some of the floor tiles so as to not have to do EVERY one of them.  And the shadowed areas were still pixeled out pixel by pixel ... I just don't see what they whine about.

The entire image is pixeled by hand.  There were no gradients or ANYthing that caused the image to "downgrade" when saving as a GIF.  I will post the original version as a PNG to prove my point (but I can't right now 'cause I'm on a new computer and Photoshop happens to be installing right now).

There might be a few more colors than 256 ... but not a lot more.  I don't create a palette and then stick to it.  I select colors as I go and don't worry about it as I don't see what difference it makes if there's 12 colors of 16 million.  It's ART ... art is what you make of it, not the number of colors used.

And yes, that's the thread that sparked this rant ... but my distaste has been growing for some time over the piss-poor attitudes some of them display over there.  As I said, I don't mind constructive criticism, but what they do is just childish insulting and not constructive.

Original image coming soon...

[MashPotato]

I'm pretty much agreed with Captain Binky regarding colours... as long as the colours in the palette are selected individually (no auto-aa or noise filters, for example) and placed by hand, I don't really care how many colours there are if it suits the picture.  However, to me, pixel art is all about control, and a huge, repetitive palette indicates that things weren't controlled as tightly as they could have been.  That does NOT mean that that picture is bad, and I would never condemn a picture based purely on colour count (btw, I'm talking in general here, not about DM's piece specifically )

As for the attitudes, I haven't encountered much of that myself on my own gallery, but I have seen it in some other places.  I think that's largely a byproduct of the age of the average PJ user, which is pretty darn young (I always feel so old there ).  Many simply follow the ideas of some of the more experienced users, and transform general principles (eg. "try to conserve colours") into black-and-white rules ("using many colours is bad").  In addition, much of the time it's the same people who get involved in those types of discussions, so I think that attitude seems more prevalent than it really is.


EDIT: well, this topic mushroomed while I was writing this post

[CaptainBinky]

Before I reply, please remember that I'm not having a go - I have no ties to Pixel Joint, I never post there, I'm not interested in ever posting there, and I'm about as far away from a colour Nazi as you can get.

I don't create a palette and then stick to it.  I select colors as I go and don't worry about it as I don't see what difference it makes if there's 12 colors of 16 million.

But you see, if you were making genuine pixel art then you would have stuck to your palette.  Like I said before, there's more to pixel art than just drawing with a single pixel brush.

It's ART ... art is what you make of it, not the number of colors used.

Agreed. That is the case for art generally. But pixel art is as much a technical skill as it is an art form.

I don't do pixel art myself. I cheat wherever and whenever I can. I don't give a monkeys about my palette, I frequently combine pixelled work with painted Photoshop work, and it is for all of these reasons that I don't post the results on Pixel Joint, because it's not actual bone-fide pixel art as they would define it.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

I have a Pixel Joint account, and I rarely post there for similar reasons as you describe, though I'm not really concerned what people will say about my work; if you don't have enough self-confidence to accept when you're doing bad/well, having other people tell you isn't really going to help.  As far as color usage goes, I personally give people a lot of latitude, but I can see where they are coming from also.  When you post in a forum (any forum), you have to go by how the system there works, Darth.  Pixel Joint is a place for old school (and I mean old school), traditional 2d pixel pushers, and as such, they all go by set palettes and are extremely interested (and anal-retentive) regarding color theory.  You either have to accept this and work with their system or post your work somewhere like deviantart or here, where the requirements and people aren't so stringent.  Also, I know you said you don't care about limiting your colors but I happen to know from experience that learning how to do more with less really, really improves color usage overall.  It's something to consider!

Oh, and I liked your image!  Skin tones looked a bit weird but the perspective and gradients were very nice.

[radiowaves]

I have pixeljoint account, its inkspot. http://www.pixeljoint.com/p/912.htm?pg=1&sec=icons And I like Joint. there is nothing wrong with it. Those who complain mostly seem to be noobs. I have been there almost from the beginning and I never had a problem.

You know, a good artist must have respect for criticism, and by that i don't mean criticism by others, but you must have a critical eye also.

Remember, everything is not worth posting.

I don't want to sound harsh here, but I have noticed a lot of disgusting things in AGS community also. I know, everybody isn't made for art, but goddamn it, if you already are trying to make it, then do some kind of research at least, see how the styles are constructed etc. Have some critical eye and don't post shit, because, you know, some of the games in AGS database truly do make me puke.

If databases are full of shit then it will keep people away, especially professionals who could be our guiding lights. All kinds of shit is still accepted at pixelscene of Deviantart, though. But it also depends how good job ShoneGold does...

[Darth Mandarb]

As I said ... I don't mind crits.  I have been showing my "art" to people my entire life both professional and hobbiest stuff alike.  I can take criticism.  I can even take those not liking it.  It's not that at ALL (and maybe I wasn't clear enough about that.)  I don't like the WAY they respond to images over there.  It's rude, childish, and ignorant.

Also, as I said, I understand it's their site thus their rules.  My gripe isn't about that.

I'm off to see a movie... back later!

[radiowaves]

Oh, don't be a crybaby! There are a lot ruder things in a world, you know.

Besides, I haven't seen much rudness in PJ. But then again, I haven't been much browsing lately also.

Oh, I now saw the tread you were talking about. http://www.pixeljoint.com/pixelart/29962.htm# Sorry, but I don't see any rude comments there. Only people are asking whats up with 256 colours. You know, pixel graphics is always presented as is, original and it is very sensitive to compression. If you used more than 256 colours, then post the original. Yes, PJ and me wouldn't accept colour reduced, compressed or otherwise non-original or aoutomatically processed pictures.

And colour count does matter actually. It improves your sense of composition and you learn to get by with less. I remember when i started at pixel graphics, I was against it too, but since I abandoned that attitude, my skills improved alot.   Remember: limited amount of colours or just try at lesser colours makes you pay more attention to the colours and therefore your colour sence improves, you start to see every detail and evetually you get better at your art. Look at Fools pictures at PJ for example, he absolutely pays attention to every single pixel, and look what pictures he makes. Its not neccesarily the drawing skills, its also the colours! If you like just picking arbitary colours you miss half of the things.

But the true reason behind it is that with lesser colours, you can change every one of them one by one. Therefore you have more control over your picture and can change the tones very easily.

Oh, and Darth, so you probably spent more time than really needed on that pic, since you had to pick more colours and therefore place more pixels...? No wonder it took you 6 hours then.

Sorry, but I don't see any problem.

[bicilotti]

This is going to get me in trouble.
Don't be so angry Darth! At least no one said "read the forum rules and tell me when you're ready to follow them"!

[Gamer_V]

read the forum rules and tell me when you're ready to follow them

[Layabout]

Their argument is fucking stupid. I know there are elitist types who are all about palette control and all that, and sure, BACK IN THE DAY when graphics manipulation programs were NOT AS ADVANCED, you would be restricted. Why should the fact that the availability of better software and colour reducers and automatic dithering get people upset because you are not doing it 'proper'?

Fucking snobby attitude. If it looks good and serves a purpose and a scene made with pixels to look old-school, then in my opinion it is pixel fucking art. Its not lazy to be effiecient and use tricks. It's called cunningness. Yeah, sure you may want to tweak the odd pixels to make it look more asthetic, but does the use of an automatic dither make it any less retro?

C U next tuesday pixelwhores.

I will never join that forum, i'm not 1337 enough for them cause i am too cunning.

[radiowaves]

If you are so cunned and modernized, then why not make a brush, vector or a 3d... At least show a decent pixel...
Oh, and just to make shure, pixelart is not about retro, while some of the works might be, the average is not at all.

And yeah, i bet you are as cunned as Fool or Steve...

[Stupot]

Since when has art ever been about following rules?
If anything, all the best art does exactly the opposite.

The Colour Nazis should start calling it Pixel Design if they are going to start implementing a code of conduct.

[lemmy101]

Fucking snobby attitude. If it looks good and serves a purpose and a scene made with pixels to look old-school, then in my opinion it is pixel fucking art. Its not lazy to be effiecient and use tricks. It's called cunningness. Yeah, sure you may want to tweak the odd pixels to make it look more asthetic, but does the use of an automatic dither make it any less retro?

While I agree wholeheartedly that obsession with the amount of colours in a piece of pixel art is annoying, I would also say that the definition of pixel art is not as wide as all that. Sure when in game development cheating at everything you can is not only sensible, but often required, but a site that exists purely for the showcase of pixel art purely for the sake of pixel art, you can well understand people being picky about palette management. To be honest it annoys me much more when people obsess or get shot down for it here, as this site is an AGS game forum, not a pixel art forum. And it does happen.

[ThreeOhFour]

I love PixelJoint, and I visit it at least once a week - even have an account there, with one lousy image I put up ages ago.

But I'm hesitant to ever put any work on there because I don't feel good enough to join in their forums with my art at it's current level.

Now, I know this may seem silly on my behalf, but I keep getting visions of people criticising me on exactly this sort of situation - using 12 shades of green, cheating by using the fill tool (heh - jokes) or whatever. I'm not saying that I think PixelJoint people are bad people because I love lurking there but I just feel like anything below a certain level of art or not sticking to a fairly specific set of techniques either gets lost in the sea of works by people who are *not* (for the most part) making their art for games but for the sake of art OR criticised because you're not as good as Fool.

I am sure there are people there who will take the time to help you improve your works and show you tips etc, and I mean no judgement on the people of PixelJoint, for I respect many of them greatly, but this is the way I feel about the situation