Pressure Points of the body

[Calin Leafshade]

Lets consider the dangers of 'Alternative Medicine'

What if an impressionable woman has cancer and she does not like the idea of chemo since the side effects are awful.

So she goes to a practitioner of alternative medicine who claims he has cured cancer in the passed with zero side effects.

She dies.

Q E D

[Igor Hardy]

So what is the moral of this story? Clinging to life isn't always desirable, especially when you can only postpone your death a bit.

[rharpe]

Try researching migraines, ask a doctor or chiropractor, she could be allergic to something she is eating or drinking or she is not getting a sufficient amount of water which causes dehydration, in turn causing headaches.

If the migraines do not let up a medical doctor should get a cat scan of her head immediately, blood clot in the brain or even a cancerous tumor could case migraines as well.
 

[Anian]

Lets consider the dangers of 'Alternative Medicine'

What if an impressionable woman has cancer and she does not like the idea of chemo since the side effects are awful.

So she goes to a practitioner of alternative medicine who claims he has cured cancer in the passed with zero side effects.

She dies.

Q E D

If I'm clinging for life or something, I'm trying anything that seems like a good idea. And with the doctors here, I try to find other opininons even if it's a limb at stake not only life.

[Snarky]

Anything is a valid treatment if people find relief in it. It has nothing to do with science, pseudoscience, quackery or any of the rest of it.

If people find relief in it. That's where the science comes in: to determine if it actually does cause any relief.

You could make an argument for treatments that are yet untested, but there's really no defense for methods that have been pretty soundly disproven.

[nihilyst]

Migraine can have many causes. One of them is the eyes. My ophtalmologist even has built a migraine medical center, and it seems to work for many people for whom other methods didn't work out so well.

[RetroJay]

Hi All.

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has posted here for your help, sympathy for my friend or just your opinions.
Thanks Chicky for the kool'n Soothe. That's something she will have to try.
Thanks Auriond. I don't know if her probs are psychological or environmental. She does get extremely stressed in her job though and that may be the cause.
Perhaps a change will do her good. She has more tests with the hospital soon so maybe they can shed some more light on her ailment.

Stupot. All I can say is that you are most perfectly wrong.

Many thanks to you all.
Jay.

[auriond]

All the best for your friend, Jay. Keep us updated on her condition.

MrColossal, Calin, Snarky:
And I suppose all scientifically proven medical treatments have been 100% effective for everybody, and have not killed anyone? But oh, you say, that depends on the practitioner, and the individual patient's response to the treatments. Precisely. That is the same for alternative medicine. My advice to Jay was to find a responsible practitioner should he choose to follow that route. I believe that would be the same for mainstream medicine as well.

Also, I'm aware that all of you come from different backgrounds from myself and possibly Gilbert. To us, what you consider pseudoscience or quackery has been around for thousands of years and is as real to us, and just as effective and possibly just as dangerous as Western medicine. The only difference is that Western medicine hasn't been able to make sense of what we do. Similarly, there are many older folk where we live in who distrust Western medicine and will only consult traditional practitioners. Fine. Different strokes for different folk. Whatever works for them. That's what I meant by "anything that people find relief in is a valid form of treatment". But thanks MrColossal for equating what we do with rape.

My advice here is not for everyone. If Jay had said "My friend has a migraine; what should we do?" I'd say, try paracetamol or see a doctor, not a sinseh. But he specifically said those have failed, and he wants to try other things. My advice was therefore that he should try it with someone who knows how to do these things, and won't cause more harm than good. I don't know why this is met with so much hostility by everyone else.

[Calin Leafshade]

The fact is we are all human and alternative medicine has highlighted some decent treatments. Aspirin for example has been around for a very long time. Natives chewed willow bark, which contains a derivitive of aspriin, and it alleviated pain. It also gave them pretty bad stomach cramps some of the time since willow bark is also poisonous.

No one doubts that 'alternative medicine' has something to offer. So we tested it all to see which treatments work.

The stuff that did work we kept and it became mainstream medicine. The stuff that didnt we abandoned.

[auriond]

I understand that. However, things like reflexology, acupuncture and certain herbal remedies don't present such a clear-cut case as what you describe. They don't necessarily cause harm when done correctly. (Eating willow bark correctly will still cause cramps, for example, because it's the nature of the thing. Not so for these others I've mentioned.)

[Calin Leafshade]

No but we can test whether or not the paitient is *better off* with or without.

You test a group of people with the treatment and a group with a placebo. If both groups perform about the same then the treatment has no effect.

all supporting evidence for reflexology is anecdotal which is essentially worthless. Just because someone saw a reflexologist and was magically cured the next day does not mean the treatment works.

[auriond]

Scientific methods such as that which you describe are also flawed. What size group should we work with in order for the results to be considered scientifically sound? Who should they be? How do we record how they feel? Through qualitative responses? (These are nothing more than a collection of anecdotes, by the way). Through quantitative measurement of their vital signs? (Jay's friend has already said that doctors find her perfectly fine, even though she still has bad migraines.)

Science changes. It's not set in stone. One day margarine is seen to be a healthier alternative to butter because of cholesterol, the next day margarine is a health threat because of trans-fats. New discoveries are made all the time which change our perception of health and medicine. In your example, Calin, there was no harm done, only a placebo effect. I feel that even if you see it as a placebo, if a placebo works, and there is no harm done, then there's no harm trying.

[MrColossal]

I guess I just see the slippery slope in what you're saying and practicing.

If I suggested to him that he go see a psychic because the migraines might be ghosts haunting her brain, is that worthy advice? Say they take the advice, give hundreds of dollars to have a person who claims to be a psychic to shake some herbs or whatever and say that it's a ghost from Atlantis haunting her brain and in order to heal it she has to come back for repeated treatments. This offers her relief for some reason or another.

Is this alright by you?

Psychics have been around for a long long time, probably longer than pressure point theories.

Thousands of people consult psychics every day.

All tests of psychic powers have proven false. Comparing to reflexology that just means we don't know how it works yet but it still works because people say it works.

Psychics don't usually cause bodily harm. So I guess it's still ok.

There are people who have been convicted as frauds and just out to take your money, so that means they just have to find a PROPER psychic, not a charlatan. No problem there then.

I see no difference between my hypothetical and your actual suggestion.

I could also have suggested trepanning and can consider it a valid suggestion like the psychic and reflexology.

Sure, reflexology and doesn't bore holes in the head and as you say "cause harm" but it doesn't cause harm because it does nothing to the body. The harm it does is waste someone's money and time and open the door to other pseudo sciences that could get someone killed.

Anyway I wasn't meaning to equate what you're doing with rape I was making a point that your rational is flawed in that it can support anything. Forgive my strong emotions.

I think humans have a pretty good idea how to test the scientific method so I'm sure they can come up with plenty of tests to test reflexology. If one is made that is peer reviewed and shows positive results I will change my opinion.

What would it take to change your opinion?

[Darth Mandarb]

Every time we humans, as a species, say something doesn't work, or is impossible, within a few years we do/prove it anyway.  Just 10 years ago scientists were 100% positive that, within the laws of physics, it was impossible to bend light (like the predator camouflage) and now not only have they discovered it is possible, someone has actually done it (well, with microwaves, but it's essentially the same thing).

I'm not defending or opposing acupuncture (or any "alternative" medicine) because I am not very educated about it.  I will only say that if it didn't have tangible results I highly doubt it is something that would have remained in practice since before the west was even in existence.

Back on topic...

I can attest that there is a planet-sized difference between a headache and a migraine.  I get headaches all the time (have one now actually).  I haven't had a migraine in years (thankfully) but I, in my early 20s, used to get them so bad that I couldn't see.  I would have to rush home at the first sign of the onset and close all the blinds, turn of all electrical devices, crawl into the bed (putting the waste basket next to the bed for the vomitting), and put a pillow over my head to help snuff out ALL sound and light.  I would know I was in for hours of suffering.

Sadly, Jay, I can't offer any help.  The only thing I could do was soldier through it.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, had any effect on it.  I tried countless remedies all to no avail.  I had CAT scans, neuro-tests, etc. There was/is nothing wrong with my noggin, I just unexplainably got them.

On a positive note, they abated and I've not had one for years.

[Anian]

I will only say that if it didn't have tangible results I highly doubt it is something that would have remained in practice since before the west was even in existence.

Going off topic, but I'll be short - actually, I wouldn't go so far as to say that, people are very silly about such things. "Superstition" is a part of our lives in every society - from religion and fairy tales to scientific theories, I would go so far as to say they define us in a large way.

Just wanted to pop that thought in. To continue the topic - if it won't hurt, try it, if it works - great, if not, well at least you know it doesn't.

[auriond]

If I suggested to him that he go see a psychic because the migraines might be ghosts haunting her brain, is that worthy advice? Say they take the advice, give hundreds of dollars to have a person who claims to be a psychic to shake some herbs or whatever and say that it's a ghost from Atlantis haunting her brain and in order to heal it she has to come back for repeated treatments. This offers her relief for some reason or another.

Is this alright by you?

If it does cause relief to her, and she therefore thinks it's worth the price, then yes, it's all right by me. I may not go for it myself, and I might think the psychic is a douche for charging so much, but that's seriously between the psychic and the patient. After all, we're always paying far too much for things that aren't worth the price. Just look at diamonds and iPhones.

Psychics have been around for a long long time, probably longer than pressure point theories.

I'm not going to dispute that because I don't have the data to prove it, but such a statement does bother me.

All tests of psychic powers have proven false. Comparing to reflexology that just means we don't know how it works yet but it still works because people say it works.

Agreed.

There are people who have been convicted as frauds and just out to take your money, so that means they just have to find a PROPER psychic, not a charlatan. No problem there then.

If there is a body that regulates the practice of psychic remedies, then no, no problem. Here in Singapore we do have a board which regulates the practice of traditional Chinese medicine. Only licensed practitioners are allowed to have a clinic.

Sure, reflexology and doesn't bore holes in the head and as you say "cause harm" but it doesn't cause harm because it does nothing to the body. The harm it does is waste someone's money and time and open the door to other pseudo sciences that could get someone killed.

That's where our backgrounds come into play.

Anyway I wasn't meaning to equate what you're doing with rape I was making a point that your rational is flawed in that it can support anything. Forgive my strong emotions.

That's all right. It's not the first time I've seen this "slippery slope" argument. I believe it's also often applied to homosexual marriage.

I think humans have a pretty good idea how to test the scientific method so I'm sure they can come up with plenty of tests to test reflexology. If one is made that is peer reviewed and shows positive results I will change my opinion.

What would it take to change your opinion?

Nothing. I believe in both. I am fine with leaving some doors open, that's all. I'm not out to convert anyone.

[MrColossal]

Auriond and I talked in PM so I am bowing out of the thread! Now we will fight in secret and you all can't see it! We'll show up to various Mittens events with bruises and missing teeth only to make up later and then both go get foot massages while a doctor over prescribes us Ritalin.

That is my prognostication for 2010, I guess it belongs in another thread.

[TerranRich]

For the record, a migraine is not the same as a regular headache. A migraine is a debilitating condition marked by intense, throbbing pain on one side of the head that becomes worse with movement and often involves nausea, vomiting, and extreme sensitivity to light and sound. One attack can last several hours to several days.

[auriond]

Now we will fight in secret and you all can't see it! We'll show up to various Mittens events with bruises and missing teeth only to make up later and then both go get foot massages while a doctor over prescribes us Ritalin.

The only way to partaaayyyy!!!!

[Timosity]

Migraine's are often also caused from dehydration, and most people aren't even aware.

Drink 2 litres of water each day, and you will reduce the chance of getting one.