PZ Myers accuses Michael Shermer of rape.

[RickJ]

I think this is the first time Calin and I have ever agreed on anything.    

libel per se n. broadcast or written publication of a false statement about another which accuses him/her of a crime, immoral acts, inability to perform his/her profession, having a loathsome disease (like syphilis), or dishonesty in business. Such claims are considered so obviously harmful that malice need not be proved to obtain a judgment for "general damages," and not just specific losses. (See: defamation, libel, slander)

[Trapezoid]

In my mind, innocent until proven guilty applies to the court of public opinion. If you aren't willing to abide by that then you should be willing to accept a defamation/libel suit in response.

I don't think Charlie Sheen's ever faced trial for his alleged domestic abuse, but would you rather it be a secret? Would you be okay with a friend of yours dating Charlie Sheen, in light of those unproven accusations?

[Khris]

It's easy to say "she should have gone to the police instead".
Whoever thinks that, did you ever hear/read why victims don't do that, especially not right after? I'm not going to go into it, because if you haven't, why are you participating in this discussion...?

[dactylopus]

It's easy to say "she should have gone to the police instead".
Whoever thinks that, did you ever hear/read why victims don't do that, especially not right after? I'm not going to go into it, because if you haven't, why are you participating in this discussion...?

Which goes back to my point that we should work to eliminate these stigmas.  People should not be made to feel shame, or self-blame, or any other negative feelings for reporting such a crime.  People should not be villainized for reporting a rape to the police.  I feel that this is impeding due process and perhaps even exacerbating the instances that this thread is debating in which public, mostly unprovable statements are made far after the fact.

I'm glad she found the courage to finally say something, but it is a shame that it may be too late (or lack sufficient evidence) to convict, and that it may be possible to convict her of defamation of character.

[Khris]

Which also explains why people do it anonymously; imagine being raped, then sued for libel by the perpetrator and losing...

[RickJ]

It's easy to say "she should have gone to the police instead".
Whoever thinks that, did you ever hear/read why victims don't do that, especially not right after? I'm not going to go into it, because if you haven't, why are you participating in this discussion...?

It doesn't really matter why they do or don't.  If they don't there will be no public record of the accusation, there will be no investigation, the perp won't be prosecuted, and there will be no further recourse.  Anonymous do-overs long after the fact are not an option in a civilized and just society.

[Stupot]

Each case is different.  Of course you can't reasonably expect a rapist to come to justice if their victim doesn't go to the authorities.  But you also can't always reasonably expect a victim to want to go to the police, especially if the rapist is someone with any degree of influence or power, or if the rapist has threatened 'don't tell anyone or I'll do the same to your sister' or something.

Dactyl says the victims shouldn't be made to feel shame for reporting a crime.  But I would add that they should also not be made to feel guilty for not wanting to come out with it.  They should just be gently reminded that it's okay if they do.  More ideally, the focus should be turned to trying to prevent rapists from striking in the first place... you actually hear very little about rape prevention.  All we ever hear is what people should or shouldn't do after it's already happened.

[bicilotti]

Dactyl says the victims shouldn't be made to feel shame for reporting a crime.  But I would add that they should also not be made to feel guilty for not wanting to come out with it.

That's an interesting point. I would say I disagree (on not reporting the crime, not on avoid making victims feel guilty), but I can see moral/civic considerations clashing in that choice.

Back OT: rereading that post by Myers, I cannot but note an emphatic narration of his role ("and goddamn it, what's dominating my head isn't the consequences, but the question of what is the right thing to do", "With that, I cast this grenade away from me…", etc.) joined with a wily use of words (e.g.: "Putative assailant" infers Myers regards this as a case of supposed rape. He refers to Shermer's actions as "unethical behavior"; unethical behaviour?!? That's rape, for Christ's sake!).
It's silly to judge a person from a single post (maybe his lawyer reworded much of it? maybe he was in distress when he wrote it?) but the attitude and reporting skills do harm the matter.

[Galen]

More ideally, the focus should be turned to trying to prevent rapists from striking in the first place... you actually hear very little about rape prevention.  All we ever hear is what people should or shouldn't do after it's already happened.

Well you hear a lot about rape prevention. Unfortunately the comments are always that they should have prevented it by dressing like a Hazmat worker or forgoing any kind of social life outside of large swarm-like crowds of female friends escorted by armed guard.

Sadly the only real common advice that isn't entirely terrible is also generally obvious (dark alleys = bad, unattended drinks will be spiked with ruffies within several femtoseconds).

[Jared]

Well you hear a lot about rape prevention. Unfortunately the comments are always that they should have prevented it by dressing like a Hazmat worker or forgoing any kind of social life outside of large swarm-like crowds of female friends escorted by armed guard.

I've never heard anyone phrase it like that - maybe I'm in the wrong country. I know this can be taken as 'entirely terrible' sentiment, but isn't there a seed of a good idea in there, at least? Surely steps such as

1) Drinking in moderation unless you are with people you know and trust
2) Taking a friend with you to places / to see people you do not know well
3) Setting clear boundaries if you are feeling uncomfortable

And yes

4) Carefully considering what your choice of attire communicates

would be the most effective steps to prevention? I know that a lot of these things are considered infringements on lifestyle choices, but at the same time I feel that the crime of rape is such a personal offense that discussion of it gets somewhat muzzled by all the emotions involved. The triggers of rape are behavioral and psychological, so the best steps to prevent it run along the same lines - this doesn't mean that people who are victims are not 'behaving properly', or that it is their fault, which I realise some people idiotically hector them over (even women, particularly here in Australia)

And, because I really think this needs clarification - I am not saying that women cannot expose themselves as they want (within the law) with their clothing. I think that they need to be considerate of what they express, and that dressing with the intention of garnering sexual attention is best done when they are confident in how to deal with that attention. (And, say, if you don't want people staring at you between the club and the station you can always throw a coat on. Just saying)

[Snarky]

Well you hear a lot about rape prevention. Unfortunately the comments are always that they should have prevented it by dressing like a Hazmat worker or forgoing any kind of social life outside of large swarm-like crowds of female friends escorted by armed guard.

I can honestly say I've never heard that argument applied to an individual victim (not counting the Internet, where the amount of heinous shit people will spew is unlimited). The closest was someone I know who said a woman who was raped was stupid for going with a man to his hotel room if she didn't want to have sex with him. Which is fair enough but besides the point since she would still have the right to change her mind.

I've never heard anyone phrase it like that - maybe I'm in the wrong country. I know this can be taken as 'entirely terrible' sentiment, but isn't there a seed of a good idea in there, at least?

Yeah, there's a difference between blaming the victim and offering useful survival tips. No one gets offended if they're told to lock the door at night, get the neighbors to pick up their mail while they're on vacation, not go into sketchy neighborhoods as a tourist... Even if this implies that your behavior affects your risk of getting robbed, no one takes that to mean that robbery is OK or that anyone but the robbers are to blame.

[dactylopus]

Surely steps such as

1) Drinking in moderation unless you are with people you know and trust
2) Taking a friend with you to places / to see people you do not know well
3) Setting clear boundaries if you are feeling uncomfortable

And yes

4) Carefully considering what your choice of attire communicates

would be the most effective steps to prevention?

While I largely agree that these will help to stop women from being victimized, the issue is that these are rape prevention tips for the victim.  They are all completely valid, and as Snarky points out, they mirror tips that we give to people to prevent their victimization in a variety of contexts.

But shouldn't we be targeting our rape prevention efforts on the perpetrators as well?  We make efforts to identify the causes of other crimes, but there doesn't seem to be as much discussion of this in regards to rape (although I have seen more of this recently).  How do we prevent people from raping others (aside from making it illegal and shameful)?  How can we discourage this behavior, or teach that it is unacceptable?  Is there a way to identify possible rapists and perhaps offer them an outlet for their sexual aggression?  Are there triggers that cause this behavior to manifest, and if so, what can we do to eliminate them from society?

Many would say that our culture is over-sexualized, and that the media is a large contributor, but I've read that sexual assault is far more prevalent in China and India where the media isn't nearly as openly sexual as it is here.  In both countries, sex is still quite a taboo topic (although that has been changing in recent years).  Those countries also have much larger percentages of men vs women (thanks to population control efforts), and while correlation cannot be said to be causation, this gender ratio could go a long way to helping us to understand the situation.

Anyways, I don't have any solutions here, merely observations.  But I feel that the responsibility of fixing this problem lies as much with the rapists as with the victims, if not more.

[Stupot]

But shouldn't we be targeting our rape prevention efforts on the perpetrators as well?

Yeah, I should have been clearer. What I had in mind when I said "you actually hear very little about rape prevention" was more about trying to prevent potential rapists from striking rather than telling potential victims to try and prevent themselves from being stricken upon.

[Scarab]

But shouldn't we be targeting our rape prevention efforts on the perpetrators as well?

Yeah, I should have been clearer. What I had in mind when I said "you actually hear very little about rape prevention" was more about trying to prevent potential rapists from striking rather than telling potential victims to try and prevent themselves from being stricken upon.

I think that a campaign aimed at 'preventing potential rapists from striking' by talking directly to the rapist can be misguided. For instance:

[Click for full size.]

This is implying that rapists genuinely don't know what they're doing is wrong. Which I find very hard to believe, particularly for repeat offenders, who, from what I've read, make up 2/3 of rapists and commit 90% of rapes (Source: 2002 study).

I get that the whole point of this poster is to flip the arguments of preventative measures on their heads, but is this framing going to help prevent rapes? Anyone who would heed this advice already is, and rapists know it's wrong but don't care.
Preventative measures, on the other hand, the ones this poster is lampooning, will prevent rapes. Even though we all wish they weren't necessary.

If you're going to target an ad towards men, it should be focusing on sobriety's effect on consent, or not being a bystander.
Take these ads, for instance: 


These promote productive behaviour for the 94% of males who aren't rapists, rather than stating patronisingly obvious claims like "rape is wrong, don't do it."

I hear "teach men not to rape" a lot, but that's exactly what happens, at least where I'm from.
No one I've ever met thinks rape is not wrong; you learn that as a child and it's constantly reinforced. When I was about to graduate school (all boys), the police came to my school and held an anti-rape seminar before Leavers' week, which aimed to teach the legal ramifications, dispel the social pressure to 'get laid' and discuss precisely what constitutes consent, particularly in the context of drugs and alcohol.

Despite this, rape still happens, and we don't know who the rapists are until they attempt to rape someone. It's never, under any circumstances, the victim's fault, and I can't stress that enough. However, without a way to get through to the perpetrators, giving people advice on how to lower the risk of becoming a victim remains the best preventative tool we have.

[Calin Leafshade]

I agree actually.

I find the "teach men not to rape" campaign to be problematic for a whole host of reasons.

I also feel that it, to some degree, robs women of agency. This is ironically something I see a lot in feminist theory.

[dactylopus]

As I said before, rape prevention tips for potential victims are certainly helpful.  Victims are not always women, so it would be nice to see similar tips for men and children.  There should also be more encouragement to speak out against attackers.

The issue with a campaign targeting rapists is that there is currently no effective method.  As a society, we should continue to examine this so that we can come up with something that works better.  We need to get to the root of the problem.  Simply saying "don't rape people" isn't really helping anything.  I don't think that first poster is particularly effective (actually, I find it to be an attempt at humor that makes light of rape).  The next posters are better, because they can at least empower others to take action where they might not otherwise, but they still don't do the job.  I don't think this is an issue that can be solved by posters.

Either way, I don't think there is a problem with continuing to educate people that sexual assault is unacceptable.  Teaching potential abusers (not always men) not to rape will always be a valuable service, and in the future I hope that the results will improve along with the methods.

[Eric]

4) Carefully considering what your choice of attire communicates

The problem with this POV is that, no matter how much we'd like to shift responsibility to the victim, there's not a single article of clothing or lack thereof, not even full nudity, that communicates "Anybody who wants to fuck me gets to fuck me, no consent required."

[dactylopus]

4) Carefully considering what your choice of attire communicates

The problem with this POV is that, no matter how much we'd like to shift responsibility to the victim, there's not a single article of clothing or lack thereof, not even full nudity, that communicates "Anybody who wants to fuck me gets to fuck me, no consent required."

I don't think that this is an attempt to blame the victim, or shift the responsibility on them.  The assailant is always, ALWAYS to blame.

I see this as an effort to help them identify what makes someone a more likely target.  I agree that there is never a choice of clothing that invites rape, but there are certainly choices that look like a bulls-eye in the eyes of a rapist, and people should at least be aware of this.

Also, I'll emphasize that these tips should only be one part of a larger effort against sexual assault.

[Calin Leafshade]

There's a difference between blame and cause I think.

If I walked into a dangerous neighborhood wearing an expensive watch and sunglasses and carrying £500 in cash and I was mugged it wouldn't be my *fault* because I hadn't done anything wrong but It might've been partially caused by my behaviour.

[bicilotti]

more on the subject
https://github.com/meitar/pat-facebook#readme