RIP/Happy Birthday James Bulger

[Guybrush Nosehair]

People die every day in horrific ways.
I'm not sure why you've decided to fixate on one death from nearly twenty years ago, tragic though it may be.
Spare a thought for the thousands in Japan?

Of course I know about these deaths. Frankly, I'm rather pissed off about Japan. The earthquake and tsunami were both very bad, granted. However, what gets to me the most is the deal with nuclear reactors. It seems that each day, experts announce that the situation is worse than they thought. Now, they're apparently accepting America's help. Could Japan be a (toned down) Chernobyl?

Furthermore, I am a religious Jew who has gone to Jewish schools all my life. Therefore, I have learned a fair bit about the Holocaust and heard amazing stories (both good and bad.) I am well aware that one tragic death of a child means nothing to the deaths of millions.

The reason I'm fixating on this one case is not just because James's death was so tragic. It's also because of the age and the background of the murderers. Furthermore (though this happens all the time), justice was never served. Ordinarily if I read or hear about the death of someone (especially a child), I feel pity. With James's story, I felt as much pity as I ever have, both for him and his family.

Lastly, I'll admit that I have an obsessive nature. I've been known to obsess over certain bands, TV shows, historical events, etc. It's uncommon, but for some reason, when some things make an impact on me, I latch on.

[Guybrush Nosehair]

While I support the death penalty for the most heinous crimes I do think that the government should wait until the criminals turn 18 before executing them. Though these killers definitely should not have been released back into society. Have these murderers done anything to redeem themselves?

Believe me, I'm put a lot of thought into whether they should have been killed or placed in jail. After all this time, I still haven't reached a conclusion. The only part I've decided on is that if they were to be killed, it wouldn't have been right to do it before they turned 18.

John Venables is back in jail in a two-year sentence for the viewing and distribution of child pornography. Once again, I am afraid that he is being offered a VERY light sentence for his crimes.

It is impossible to know what Robert Thompson has been up to, since his name was changed. While he hasn't done anything to be thrown back in prison, I really doubt he's done anything to redeem himself. Interestingly, the question you posed reminds me of the movie "Boy A," which is how I discovered the whole James Bulger case in the first place.

[Sam.]

I recommend you study the law around what is considered malice aforethought. There is still a great debate in legal circles over the legality of the convictions of these boys, at what age can one truly appreciate the consequences of your actions, whether or not at the time the jurisprudence points to a guilty verdict and the validity of this verdict. It is still very much a grey area.

Do you not think that maybe, although these people have done awful things, their actions be viewed in the context of the world in which they live? To fixate upon them and expect a lively debate twenty years after the fact, is a touch peculiar. As is to be "pissed off" about Japan.

What is annoying you? The loss of human life? Or the lack of a target to pillory?

[Guybrush Nosehair]

I recommend you study the law around what is considered malice aforethought. There is still a great debate in legal circles over the legality of the convictions of these boys, at what age can one truly appreciate the consequences of your actions, whether or not at the time the jurisprudence points to a guilty verdict and the validity of this verdict. It is still very much a grey area.

Do you not think that maybe, although these people have done awful things, their actions be viewed in the context of the world in which they live? To fixate upon them and expect a lively debate twenty years after the fact, is a touch peculiar. As is to be "pissed off" about Japan.

What is annoying you? The loss of human life? Or the lack of a target to pillory?

What is annoying to me is not only the loss of human life, but the fact that the reactors exploded, possibly spewing radioactive particles into the air. It's as simple as that. It has nothing to do with there being a "lack of a target to pillory." You seem to be suggesting that I only become upset over deaths caused by humans. I assure you that this is not the case. It is only natural, though, for me to become more enraged when deaths are in the hands of other people.

In reference to malice aforethought, one of the articles I supplied a link to deals heavily with that. The author asks if the intention really was to kill James, or if the boys' "game" went too far before they themselves knew what was going on. I don't think this is nearly as relevant an argument as that of doli incapax.

I am well aware of the people who cried foul at the murderers' judgement. On one (or maybe two?) occasions, Venables's and Thompson's sentences were greatly increased. However, because the two were tried in an adult court, this was considered illegal, and their sentences were decreased to their original lengths.

It is true, and I therefore can't deny, that my fixation on the case is "peculiar." However, I don't think that expecting a discussion (when did I ever use the word "lively?"), even if it is almost 20 years after the fact, is "peculiar." My original post was the day before the anniversary of James's death. I only revived the topic once, and that was the day before his birthday. Is it so strange to expect a discussion of something that many people still remember surrounding its anniversary? Furthermore, your mentioning of malice aforethought is an excellent example of something that could likely stir up discussion.

[Sam.]

I was simply referring to your displeasure at the lack of debate, apologies for the confusion.

I don't understand how the exploding reactors has annoyed you, it was an essentially unforeseeable event which many people are sacrificing their lives to prevent. Unless i'm misunderstanding annoyance (or "pissed off") and you mean it worries you?

Malice Aforethought, I would presume, is the key argument here. I would presume you accept that Doli Incapax is an outmoded law, as proved by this very case. You cannot assume that simply because of someone's age they simply cannot understand what they are doing, right from wrong. However, my argument would question how one could conclusively prove of someone so young, whether they knew either way. At least with sufficient certainty to understand the seriousness of life and death and the social norms that surround them. To establish the mens rea of murder in an adult court of law, it is to appreciate the high probability of the consequences of your action and a legal intention for these consequences to come about. This, I would imagine, is very difficult in the case of two 10 year olds, as their ability to communicate their understanding is limited by their own frame of experience. It is a complex issue on which I do not intend to replicate my essay answers. 

I would dismiss Doli Incapax as an outdated presumption (as indeed the CDA did) and would afford it little relevance in this case, at least with the benefit of hindsight.

An interesting legal argument, but not worth dredging up on Adventure Game forums, seemingly to garner sympathy for the victim.

[Kweepa]

What happened to Zooty? He sounds like an adult!

[Moresco]

So many children in this world have been brutally murdered, babies drowned by their parents, thrown into dumpsters like garbage...it's horrible, it's a sad fact of life in our world full of people with serious mental problems, depression, fear, disturbing circumstances which are not the norm for you or I, situations we could never fathom.   I have no idea what these two boys lives were like, or what could motivate them to do something so horrific.  When I was a child I did all kinds of things that were wrong, but I didn't understand why.  I knew it was wrong, because I was told so...but why it was wrong was a life lesson I had yet to experience and wrap my head around.   Maybe these two boys were deranged,  or maybe they were just lost and didn't see their act as the horrific act we see it as.  It's a sick world.

I also agree, where's the love for Japan?  Sure they're struggling with the reactor, but shit happens in a major natural disaster.  There's quite a bit of panic, there's miscommunication, and even maybe someone is trying to cover their ass at the expensive of everyone else, but we don't know any of that for sure.  All I know, is there are people hurting, hungry, lost, dying, dead, and it's just unimaginable.   If you want to be pissed off, be pissed off enough to send them some money and help someone get food.

[Renal Shutdown]

I'm not going to bother reading this whole thread, as to be honest, I can't be assed*.  This is the first time I've been back on this forum in a hell of a long time, and this was the first thread I came across.

If this was my kid, I would personally be offended.  You say yourself that you weren't around when it happened.  Do you have any real reason to bring it up, now?  I can understand it being referenced as part of something else, but to actually make a whole thread about it?  Imagine it was your kid, would you want someone bringing it up every year just 'so people remember'?  I'm sure as hell wouldn't.  Oh, guess what, the holocaust happened, people only reference that when it's appropriate, and even then when it's fitting.

Did you ever think that maybe the parents want to just move on?  If they've set up a charity, and actively promote it on certain occasions, by all means spread the word.  But nothing in your original post suggests that.  So, yea, go people who were in the Boer War.  No real reason, but what the hell, they had a sh*tty time, once upon a time.  They're all dead now, and even if they weren't they wouldn't be reading this, so they won't mind me mentioning them.  Boer War was a load of crap for those involved, so I can take the Pseudo-High Road you're on now.

I can understand you want to do your bit to 'make the world better', but seriously, bringing up past failures of humanity is NOT the way to do it.  It just gives more f*cktards a reason to fail on an epic scale, and you're just giving the dregs of humanity a reason to continue on their path.  People should be inspired to be better than they are, not given a reason to be worse. 

So, these kids might have seen a movie, so what? The parents weren't their to tell them it was a movie, and the things in it were wrong.  I'm sorry, but reminding people of this isn't going to help make the world a better place.  You're not raising money for a charity doing this, and it's not going to help the unfortunate kids in the future.

People, in general, are bastards who naturally enjoy hurting others (Don't try to tell me you've never laughed at another person's misfortune, as it's a natural defense mechanism in the body/subconscious).  They might not admit it, but I'm afraid most people revel in other's failures.  If they find some self-gratification in causing others pain, I'm sure they will.  All you've succeeded in doing is potentially making some folk who didn't know about this event have a 'back up excuse' prepared.  Hell, they won't even be prosecuted as adults.

I'm saying this as someone who's on the edge of going completely postal.  I was a nice person once, but honestly? F*ck it.  I've given up on humanity, if I can wipe out a crowd of people and face no 'real' retribution, and we had guns in this country, what is there to stop me?  I can just say TV made me do it.  Or failing that, I could say I read about some kids doing it and getting away with it.  You know where that Raoul Moat bloke went wrong?  He didn't bring enough ammo.

People shouldn't get excuses for being c*nts, from any medium.  This thread, to me, is just setting a precedent.  Kids can go out and do whatever the f*ck they want, because other kids have done the same in the past.  It involves absolutely nothing to actually solve the problem.  (Apologies to any other posts that tried to remedy this).

The worst thing for me, is people jumping on long past band wagons they have no reason to be on, just to make themselves feel like they're 'making a difference', without putting in the effort to ACTUALLY make a difference.  Don't get me wrong, I fully believe ONE person is capable of changing the entire world.  I just find it pathetic when people think a half-assed effort, in a limited area will make a difference.  Especially when that effort is to solely make them feel slightly better about themselves.  Let me ask you, how much did you give to charity this year?



* For those that know me, I've become a world class c*nt.  You may or may not see a thread about this in the future.

[Scavenger]

However, I don't think that expecting a discussion (when did I ever use the word "lively?"), even if it is almost 20 years after the fact, is "peculiar." My original post was the day before the anniversary of James's death. I only revived the topic once, and that was the day before his birthday. Is it so strange to expect a discussion of something that many people still remember surrounding its anniversary?

What is there to say, really?

"The murderers were horrible people."
"The murderers were mentally unsound."
"What are the murderers doing now?"
"What is the family doing now?"
"Poor kid, he shouldn't have died."

And we wheel out the sympathy for this one kid who got killed and got media attention for it, we hang up his corpse so that we can gaze in horrified disbelief at it for another day long after the fact. We look at photos of that one kid, that one kid who is just one of many thousands, millions, who are brutally murdered. And then we put him back in his box until next year.

Round and round we go, digging up the graves of those long dead to mourn them, even if we didn't know them. Just one more face that we have to shed tears over forever, and ever, and ever. They can never be laid to rest. Dragging this out longer just causes more suffering as we are forced to tear open old wounds just to remember the pain. This isn't making the world better, what could we possibly gain from dwelling on this?

There is enough suffering going on in the present to cope with. Japan, as stated, is enough for a lifetime. Let's not have deliberate sideshow acts where we display indignancy, shock and disgust at the situation on cue. The media have already done this. You have no connection to him. There is nothing to be done, nothing you could do or could have done.  You do not need to champion the dead boy's cause anymore.

Just let it rest.

Just let him rest.

[Calin Leafshade]

Firstly, this thread is now officially creepy.

Secondly, Some of you people need to stay the fuck away from me.

Thirdly, C*nt and cunt mean *exactly* the same thing. If you don't want to use the word then dont use the word.

[Snake]

You're a cunt, Leafshade.

[Dualnames]

You're a cunt, Leafshade.

Don't call him a c&unt.

[Guybrush Nosehair]

If this was my kid, I would personally be offended.  You say yourself that you weren't around when it happened.  Do you have any real reason to bring it up, now?  I can understand it being referenced as part of something else, but to actually make a whole thread about it?  Imagine it was your kid, would you want someone bringing it up every year just 'so people remember'?  I'm sure as hell wouldn't.  Oh, guess what, the holocaust happened, people only reference that when it's appropriate, and even then when it's fitting.

Clearly, Denise Fergus still wants people to remember her son. Tomorrow (Sunday, March 19,) a race is being held in James's memory. The money, as I understand, will go towards creating the James Bulger House, a section of the Red Balloon house, which does excellent things for children.

I certainly wasn't around when John Lennon died, but I, as well as millions of others, think about him every year on the anniversaries of his birthday and death.

In no way am I saying that James Bulger's death was comparable to the Holocaust, or even Japan's current situation. How could the death of one child, no matter how gruesome, be compared to the deaths of millions? However, knowing this case in detail, knowing the age of the killers, somewhat knowing the background of the killers -- this really stuck with me. Is that such a bad thing?

And yes, if it were my kid, I'd be honored if people remembered him.

I can understand you want to do your bit to 'make the world better'

It's funny, you read closely enough to notice that I never mentioned a charity. However, you didn't read closely enough to notice the fact that I never once mentioned "making the world better." Let's not make assumptions.

All you've succeeded in doing is potentially making some folk who didn't know about this event have a 'back up excuse' prepared.

I guess your right. I likely just got some murderers off the hook.

It's not like if you just offer an excuse in court, it will be accepted. In this case, the judge ruled that there was no correlation between the movie and the murder. Furthermore, I doubt anyone hasn't heard this excuse before.

I've given up on humanity, if I can wipe out a crowd of people and face no 'real' retribution.

The only reason anyone has any reason to give up on humanity is because of people like you.

The worst thing for me, is people jumping on long past band wagons they have no reason to be on, just to make themselves feel like they're 'making a difference', without putting in the effort to ACTUALLY make a difference.  Don't get me wrong, I fully believe ONE person is capable of changing the entire world.  I just find it pathetic when people think a half-assed effort, in a limited area will make a difference.  Especially when that effort is to solely make them feel slightly better about themselves.  Let me ask you, how much did you give to charity this year?

Once again, through this thread, I am NOT trying to change the world. I am trying to draw attention to the case as (somewhat of) a memorial. When I became familiar with the James Bulger case, I did NOT feel better about myself, I assure you.

Lastly, you got me with your last question. I am a sixteen-year-old in high-school with no job, and no money of my own. Whatever money I do manage to raise, I make a point of giving a chunk to charity. The last charity I donated to benefited children with cancer.

And yes, you are one of the world's biggest cunts. You likely will see a thread about this appearing sometime in the future, although it will likely be started by someone else. That's not my style. I would definitely consider contributing, though.

Firstly, this thread is now officially creepy.

Secondly, Some of you people need to stay the f*ck away from me.

Thirdly, C*nt and cunt mean *exactly* the same thing. If you don't want to use the word then dont use the word.

Thanks, Leafshade. I agree. This thread has now become creepy.

Notice that I took the liberty of altering your post. You forgot to place a * in your expletive.

Lastly, (and this is aimed towards all my "critics",) If the disaster in Japan is so important to you that you have to throw down others' misfortunes, why have you not started any threads? Certainly, it is not too late to "get on the bandwagon." I apologize for having offended everyone here with my "lack of care" for those in Japan.

It appears as if no one is interested in discussing the James Bulger case. For this reason, I would like to lock the thread once some last few replies are posted. If this is possible, and anyone can explain how, I'd appreciate it.

[Darth Mandarb]

Since when is the general discussion board not the place for this type of thread?

I'm going to keep my opinion on the matter out of this thread because, as usual, it would just be misunderstood and then start an off-topic-10-page-back-n-forth where nobody will see the obvious point I'm trying to make and get all "enlightened" on me about it trying to make me seem ignorant and eventually I'll just stop trying to make the close-minded see my point and bow out of the thread garnering posts about how this somehow proves them right since I am not taking part anymore when it's actually a case of me not caring to open a closed mind and then I'll receive countless PMs from people saying that they understand and agree with me and they can't understand why the people in the thread just can't see it when it's so obvious.

Pass.

I admit grim is a little ... emphatic ... with his posts on this [admittedly] morbid subject but I don't see the difference between that or somebody making a post about a movie they liked.  It's "general" discussion ... it's what it's for.  When a celebrity dies and somebody, who cared for him/her, starts a post about it, there's always those blow-hards that feel the need to post the usual "people die every day why is this so big a deal" posts.  So I suppose I'm not really surprised.

Is it really that hard to understand that this is something he cares about and wants to discuss, generally.

For what it's worth Grim; I sent some positive thoughts into the universe for little James ... where ever he is.

[Dualnames]

I have to say, yes there are more dead people, in several occasions I can think of, like the Japan earthquake, but we're not equally affected by anything. I was more affected ,when after like a year since the last Athens earthquake, an earthquake occurred in Turkey, than I was for the Tsunami in Indonesia.

[straydogstrut]

Bravo Darth, well said: this is General Discussion after all and if Grim wants to talk about it, why shouldn't he?

I for one am thankful he started this thread. Yes, it's painful to be reminded of events like these, but I don't think that we should simply bury them so long as we treat them with due care and respect. I think that's exactly what Grim has done: I don't see that he's being callous or sensationalist like those bloody tabloids. He's started a valid discussion that has deep and far-reaching questions - many of which I still cannot answer myself - and has succeeded in bringing this particular story to our friends around the world who may not have known about it.

Yes, it's been talked about before, and will continue to be whenever people feel the need. If people think they've heard it all before and don't want to talk about it, then don't. But don't shout down others who do. All Grim was asking for in his original post - and i'm sorry I missed it Grim - was for people to spare a thought for little James. I have no connection to James other than being human and feeling horrified at the circumstances of his death. Grim wasn't suggesting that James' death is any more 'important' than the terrible events taking place in Japan - he simply highlighted a case which had moved him personally - and I agree with Dual: we're not equally affected by these events; how can we be? Our experiences and relationship to the people involved will always play their part, and it's not right simply to go by numbers. Just because something happened years ago or on the other side of the world, doesn't mean that we can't care.

[Guybrush Nosehair]

Thank you, Darth, Dualnames, and straydogstrut. I couldn't have said it any better.

[voh]

Imagine it was your kid, would you want someone bringing it up every year just 'so people remember'?  I'm sure as hell wouldn't.  Oh, guess what, the holocaust happened, people only reference that when it's appropriate, and even then when it's fitting.

Creeeeeepy remark concerning the Holocaust only being referenced when it's appropriate and not 'every year just so people remember'.

There's so many yearly recurring remembrance days for the Holocaust, all over the world, that your suggestion alone makes me both laugh with disbelief and feel a little sad for you.

Also, re: this topic, lay off, negabrats, as far as I can tell, it's a valid topic which has reminded some and initiated others (I, for instance, had never heard of James before).

[Guybrush Nosehair]

Imagine it was your kid, would you want someone bringing it up every year just 'so people remember'?  I'm sure as hell wouldn't.  Oh, guess what, the holocaust happened, people only reference that when it's appropriate, and even then when it's fitting.

Creeeeeepy remark concerning the Holocaust only being referenced when it's appropriate and not 'every year just so people remember'.

There's so many yearly recurring remembrance days for the Holocaust, all over the world, that your suggestion alone makes me both laugh with disbelief and feel a little sad for you.

Also, re: this topic, lay off, negabrats, as far as I can tell, it's a valid topic which has reminded some and initiated others (I, for instance, had never heard of James before).

First off, Voh, thank you for your support. I truly appreciate that there are some people willing to take this thread for what it's meant to be.

Secondly (and this is aimed at the part that you quoted from Renal,) I have now read several news articles stating that Denise Fergus was thrilled with the turnout to the 5k race last Sunday. She says that she hopes to make it an annual event. To me, that sounds like she wants people to remember...

[Leon]

Tonight on BBC1: Jon Venables: What Went Wrong?