RPG communities - ARGH!

Kinoko · Tue 08/03/2005 00:35:02

I just have to get my frustrations out somewhere and I can't think of a place any better than this.

Why is the RPG community on the internet so utterly lame?!

Admittedly, RPGs are a far bigger genre than adventure games, and far more varied too. An adventure game forum like this can exist and satisfy everyone's needs, whereas having an 'RPG' forum really has to be huge to satisfy everyone's interests. I realise that most people think of RPGs as the old tabletop games and games that follow that style. I respect that, it's where they began and thats fine. Even so, console RPGs have been huge for a very long time and I expected I might just be able to find a community similar to to this one based around those. Nope. Most forums are completely dedicated to online role-playing and campaigns, or they're just completely... well, lame is the best word. A couple of threads with a couple of posts in each about Final Fantasy. Most of the people in these forums don't even seem to be regular RPG players, they just picked up a copy of FFX because of the half-naked women on the cover and want to chat about which one is hotter.

They aren't all like that exactly, but I'll be damned if after weeks of searching I can find one that even comes close to being just a general, decent forum for console RPG fans. It blows my mind that something with such a huge fanbase could go uncatered for. Are people really just not interested in talking about them at all? I feel like I could talk about my favourite SNES RPGs for all eternity. I had no idea I was a dying breed.

As far as RPG making comminuties go, all they seem to be interested in is creating 'systems'. "I've created an item system!"... but no game. Noone seems to want to make decent games, just have a go at programming certain components of engines. The games that do get made seem to be 99% made out of RPGMaker, and well, are short and crap and are comprised of ripped FF sprites.

Where's the love?!?

If anyone can point me in the direction of a decent place, I'd be MOST appreciative. Otherwise, I feel I'm going to have to wander this lonely road forever... just talking to myself about how much I love Terranigma. This whole thing makes me glad I have AGS here for at least adventure games.

MrColossal · Tue 08/03/2005 00:51:17

I can't offer a suggestion as to why people in RPG forums don't make games and just ... parts.. But I find that curious.

You'd think an RPG would be another easy game to make [I mostly mean stupid ones of course where it's just random battle after random battle] and plug in any old story at all...

You'd think we'd be swamped with them...

You can always start and topic of discussion you want in GenGen, I like talking about any game genre really if it can help me learn something new about game making.

Eric

BerserkerTails · Tue 08/03/2005 00:57:26

I've always wanted to make an RPG, mainly just so I could write the plot and score for it, haha. Which is why the couple RPGs I *HAVE* made have never really gotten too far into development. I don't know, whereas I can work 9 hours straight on one animation, I can't sit down and work on tile based graphics...

Hmmm, weird, I know.

As far as RPG Communities go, I can't really recommend any. Though we can just discuss them in Gen-Gen like Eric suggested. I mean, I'm replaying both FF6 and FF7 right now (Though FF7 isn't for SNES, haha), and they're still incredible games.

Bernie · Tue 08/03/2005 01:12:20

There's www.gamingw.net, but I'm not sure if that's what you're looking for. I think it's a rpgmaker2000 (or whatever it's called) community, or something. Maybe you want to give it a try.

Kinoko · Tue 08/03/2005 02:01:37

www.gamingw.net is the closest I've come, and it is pretty good there, I must admit. Still, all those enormous avatars and page long sigs ... @_@

Berserker: You could always just throw the tile-based idea out the window and still make an RPG ^_^ I'd love to see what you could do in that genre!

Squinky · Tue 08/03/2005 03:00:41

If your looking for a good rpg game creating community, the guys at Verge seemed okay. If you use the engine you have to learn some scripting which is close to ags....I posted asking noob questions and they seemed okay, and its a smaller community, which is always good....

http://www.verge-rpg.com/

Lucky · Tue 08/03/2005 09:24:44

Quote from: Kinoko on Tue 08/03/2005 00:35:02As far as RPG making comminuties go, all they seem to be interested in is creating 'systems'. "I've created an item system!"... but no game. Noone seems to want to make decent games, just have a go at programming certain components of engines. The games that do get made seem to be 99% made out of RPGMaker, and well, are short and crap and are comprised of ripped FF sprites.

I think that problem exists in all game making communities. Programmers are a pretty crazy bunch you know.

Moresco · Wed 20/04/2005 22:55:33

Um, I think you should be looking into something like RM2k3 or maybe there's a newer version by now? I haven't kept up to date, but I vividly do remember making items and monsters and such for months and months on a forum. There are lots of forums for it probably still, but search in google and see what you get.

Seleceus · Thu 21/04/2005 14:16:32

My namesake, and original D&D character, would have quite a lot to say about this matter, but I'll paraphrase.

Quote from: KinokoWhy is the RPG community on the internet so utterly lame?!

That's because they are! The majority of online game communities, in general, are dominated by immature (NOT to be confused with YOUNG) people.

QuoteI realise that most people think of RPGs as the old tabletop games and games that follow that style.

There is a very good reason for this: Many of the computer-based RPGs have all but eliminated the PC-NPC interactions. Role-Playing, by definition, requires you to take on the personality, knowledge, and emotions, of another, usually fictional, character, not just the physical, or meta-physical, attributes. The instant you remove the 'ROLE PLAYING' from RPG it no longer means anything, and you're left with a combat-adventure game.
Now, I'm not going to argue symantics, or make a blanket statement about all the games that claim to be RPGs. Some online games, as well as console, show aspects of role-playing. But for the most part, I've seen better dialogues, and decision trees, in games made right here, hence...

QuoteMost forums are completely dedicated to online role-playing and campaigns,...

It's quite an undertaking to make passable NPCs with code. The AI (or Expert Systems) logics become rather large, and unwieldy. Just imagine the text parsing for every means of saying something, then factor in attitudes, body language, prejudices, and personal comprehension. For that you really need a live, thinking, human being administrating your game.

I really wish I could help you, in your search. I gave up mine when I realized that no amount of binary assistance was going to fill the void. The days of paper, pencil, and dice, are probably gone, except perhaps for a few of us dinosaurs.

Maybe your answer lies in starting your own. Just a thought.

Dave Gilbert · Thu 21/04/2005 15:53:49

An interesting thread, Kinoko. I discovered the indie-RPG/RM2K scene a few months ago via gamingw.net. After playing a bunch, I discovered a few things about the scene that really bothered me.

1- All the games look alike!
Seriously. If we saw an ags game that used ripped sprites and backgrounds from old Sierra and LucasArts games, we look down on them. Most, if not all, of indie-RPG games do this. You'll find whole websites dedicated to ripped chipsets from various games like "Chrono Trigger" and "Dragon Warrior". The scene seems to accept this as normal. I once saw an indie-RPG review that read something like: "This game shows a good use of the 'Secrets of Mana' chipset." A bit baffling that this type of this is prasied, but it seems to be quite normal.

2 - Very few released games are actually finished.
I played "Blurred Line" and was blown away by the quality, but was very disappointed to see a big "TO BE CONTINUED" at the end. I then tried a few more games that got high ratings on gamingw.net, and encountered the same! I know I am guilty of doing the "continued" thing myself, but I wouldn't say it's typical in the AGS scene. In the indie-RPG scene, this is almost par for the course. There are very few actual COMPLETED games. There are only demos, or chapters released piecemeal.

3 - There is no centalized community for the engine
Having a central community for AGS users makes things nicely streamlined. You have a question about AGS or want to talk about AGS games, you go to the AGS website. There's no central web community for RM2K, so they're all over the place. As such, the individual forums are, as Kinoko so delicately puts it, quite lame.

RM2K, and the indie-RPG scene as a whole, has been around even longer than AGS has. I'm really surprised at the state it's in. I enjoy RPGs, and even toyed around with rm2k. Never tried Verge though.

Kinoko · Thu 21/04/2005 16:15:25

Wow, this has been dug up again ^_^

Well, actually I did find a community I was fairly happy with - gamingw.net. It has it's problems, Dave does an excellent job of summing them up, but it's as good as they get, I suspect.

Dave: My god, I get so sick of looking at a proposed game, thinking, "Wow, it looks amazing!" and then having to think, "Oh... of course, ripped sprites". When I posted my own game there, a lot of people were pretty impressed I was doing everything from scratch myself, but they're all more amazed with a good looking game using chipsets. It's frustrating, and I just don't feel like praising anyone for using ripped graphics, particularly when, as you said, it's the norm. I don't see how scripting and writing part 1 of a story constitutes making a game.

The biggest thing that annoys me these days is that, as there are SO very few games released, I tried to play some of the reputedly better ones. I soon realised that 99% of them require you to have the engine itself installed on your computer.

It's INSANITY @_@

Why can't they produce a nice, neat executable like AGS? No, you have to have the engine itself, and THEN the game comes in a thousand pieces. It's very, very messy. I lost my patience and I've played no more than 1 or 2 games (and even then, not for very long because I get put off by chipsets - I like to see a person's individual artistry!)

I don't go there much anymore, especially since most of the games coming out recently are FF, Pokemon, DBZ or Zelda clones.

I'm still making my own RPG, but I have little faith in the RPG community out there to appreciate it. I care more about the opinions of AGSers, who I know have some decent standards.

Dave Gilbert · Thu 21/04/2005 16:31:18

I once discovered a chipset dedicated to creating a 1930s Chicaco-like atmosphere. Old timey cars, streets, buildings, detectives with fedoras, mobsters with tommy guns. It was great. The game made with it is all in Japanese, though. It was a very impressive chipset.

Barbarian · Thu 21/04/2005 16:52:06

The QuandaryLand.com forums seems to have a good community for discussing both RPG and Adventure type of games.
http://www.quandaryland.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/Cat/0/C/1
I've only signed up as a member there recently, but so far I've been reading over, and having some good fairly open-minded and mature discussions with other adventure-gaming fans.

Nine Toes · Thu 21/04/2005 18:39:47

I started making an RPG with RPG Toolkit, but there were a few setbacks:
1. Toolkit V. 3.0 seems like it's taking forever to be released (because the guy who originally created it decided to make it open source).
2. The story itself spanned across thousands of generations, and had hundreds of thousands of events, and character interactions to program. (overwhelming is an understatement)

I still plan on working on it one day, when I learn how to be patient with things again.

Kinoko, I've seen screen shots of your game, but I can't find any development threads for it, what are you creating it with?

Bernie · Thu 21/04/2005 18:57:11

Kinoko's RPG thread:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=15608.0
Doesn't look like it, but it's an AGS game!

Seeing as you want to make a very complex and big RPG, AGS may not be what you want to use. I'd use Multimedia Fusion for a game like that. But it's not free...

Arboris · Thu 21/04/2005 19:01:22

Tried once to make an RPG a few years back with the old and known RPGmaker2000. Never got further then making some character sets tho.
Also a big drawback was that the damn program needed to be installed on the computer to make the game work.

Dave Gilbert · Thu 21/04/2005 19:05:12

The main problem I had with 2M2K was that the system for entering in dialog sucks. The dialog box was pre-defined for japanese characters, so you have to guestimate how many english letters to put in there before they go off the edge of the screen. This usually means going back and forth between the game and the engine to make sure it looks right. For someone like me who likes to write lots of dialog, it was very frustrating.

Huw Dawson · Thu 21/04/2005 19:50:57

Well, ONE community springs to mind... It's the one in which I was "born" in - on the internet, that is.

It's a Warhammer community. Not FF. This is beacause their the remainders of a cancelled game's community. This is also because finding decent FF roleplaying these days is kind of like trying to eat jelly with a 14 foot long fork.Ã,Â

The link's www.warhammeronlineforum.com , and just one point. Don't go there if you can't spell sausage or such, or can't tell a simile from a metaphor. Most of the role-players are GOOD.

EDIT: Oh, and Grandia's better than FFX and the rest. And came out 5 years before.

Moresco · Thu 21/04/2005 20:36:36

Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 21/04/2005 19:05:12
The main problem I had with 2M2K was that the system for entering in dialog sucks. The dialog box was pre-defined for japanese characters, so you have to guestimate how many english letters to put in there before they go off the edge of the screen. This usually means going back and forth between the game and the engine to make sure it looks right. For someone like me who likes to write lots of dialog, it was very frustrating.

Weren't there hacks for that stuff? I thought there were a few, maybe I'm thinking of the old program or something. That's a bummer.

Kinoko · Fri 22/04/2005 02:39:28

Well, I'm just not interested in any of the other RPG making engines. I'm doing well in AGS, and I like it. I'm gonna do the game in AGS ^_^ It's working out well (even though I haven't worked on it for a few weeks...). To be honest, all the popular ones just get on my nerves, they're not neat, and I just haven't seen any real decent games come out of them. The others, well, I haven't seen any really decent games come out of them, and I'd have to spend all my time learning another programming language... I like what I'm doing with AGS.

Huw: Yeah, I'm sure it's great

But it's warhammer! I'm after console RPGs. To be honest, I've lost any interest in talking to other RPG makers... I think most of them are... @_@ Hmm.