School shootings

[Raggit]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21224357/ (School shooting article)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438/ (School shooting myths)

Why does this keep happening?  Granted, school shootings are not as rampant as they may seem, what with all the media attention they draw, but they still beg the question, why.


What's pushing these kids to do these things?

Why are so many of them male?

Why don't the kids who know about these plans in advance say something before it happens?

Are there any plans in the near future to take action against these shootings that will actually be effective, and still leave personal privacy and individuality intact?

There are no direct answers, but this kind of thing is so confusing I can't help but ask the questions.

At least nobody was killed in this round of shootings.  (That they know of yet, anyway.)

[Ghost]

I say it is a trend. Someone started it, and it became "popular" in a way, sad as it is.
There have always been violent outlets of steam that were copied; from waves of suicide to "bombing runs", and this, I fear, is really just another such wave.

Personally, I find the media hype behind school-shootings the equivalent of pouring gasoline into the flames. There will always be certain people who will actually get a thrill out of the idea to go out with a bright light.

[Radiant]

I think I know enough applied psychology to give a meaningful answer or two...

Why does this keep happening?  Granted, school shootings are not as rampant as they may seem, what with all the media attention they draw, but they still beg the question, why.

I suggest you watch Bowling for Columbine; it provides some interesting insights in the matter. It is very much a culture thing, combined with the abundant availability of firearms.

What's pushing these kids to do these things?

Generally, ignorance.

Why are so many of them male?

As above, plus males are traditionally more aggressive than females. Testosteron, and so forth.

Why don't the kids who know about these plans in advance say something before it happens?

Disbelief, usually. Either they don't think that will happen to them, or they don't realize the magnitude (this is rather otherwordly for most people, especially young ones) or they do tell and aren't listened to, for pretty much the same reasons.

Are there any plans in the near future to take action against these shootings that will actually be effective, and still leave personal privacy and individuality intact?

No. You should listen to the song "Blame Canada" for a few insights into that - specifically, the final line "we must blame them and cause a fuss before somebody thinks of blaming us". People are too busy blaming e.g. heavy metal music and videogames, because this is a convenient scapegoat and allows them to believe themselves guilt-free. The problem usually starts with the parents.

[Vince Twelve]

Just last night, my wife was telling me that she was nervous about us moving to America because there are so many shootings in schools there and she didn't want our daughter anywhere near that.  I told her it was fine and that it's really not as common as it may seem.  Yes, guns are far easier to come by in America compared to Japan which has very strict gun laws.  And yes, there are some shootings, but compared to the size of America, and the number of schools we have, it's not really that common, statistically speaking.

I had finally calmed her down about it, and then we wake up to see this on the morning news.  Sigh.

[RickJ]

What's pushing these kids to do these things?
Why are so many of them male?

School shootings are a recent phenomena that just happen to coincide with the emergence of the "self esteem" and the "competition is bad" movements in the educational and child rearing establishments, beginning perhaps about 25-30 years ago.   One has to wonder if there is a connection between the two.

Beginning with kindergarten, little boys are constantly pumped up on unearned/undeserved self-esteem, shielded from having to deal with any kind of failure experiences (loosing an athletic contest, failing a test, flunking a grade, etc), and forced to repress their natural proclivity to express themselves (i.e. release their feelings) through physically competitive activities) lest they be drugged up with  riddlin. 

I am not exaggerating! It's not unusual to read in the news where some school system no longer uses red ink to correct grade tests or homework papers because it would hurt the students feelings to learn that they did their assignments incorrectly.  Many schools systems have banned "tag" and other school games for the same reasons.  I've heard of kid soccer leagues where they don't keep score or require all the kids to get the same amount of game time regardless of their abilities or skills.  In some places they have or have tried to ban more traditional sports/activities such as football, dodgeball, etc because they are too rough!   

Sooner or later they grow up and meet up with the harsh realities of the real world.  They get scorned by the girl or girls they are attracted to or worse by all of the girls.   They realize they are not as good at everything as they thought or find that there are things they can't do or have in life.   They have no experience in dealing with failure or humiliation of any kind.  Add to this all of the emotional energy highs and lows from adolescent hormones and you have a recipe for disaster.     

In years past little boys were taught to deal with failure by "sucking it up", "not crying", and "taking it like a man".  It's not an easy thing to do; it's a skill acquired through pain and much practice.   Unfortunately, in today's world it is fashionable to deny kids the opportunity to learn how to deal with the unpleasentries of life.

... It is very much a culture thing, combined with the abundant availability of firearms.

This statement is probably correct but not for the reasons Michael Moore gives in his film.   Firearms were more plentiful and ubiquitous in the past than they are now but this problem is a recent development in American history/culture.    Culture being defined as "learned behavior" would also include behavior learned from a false sense of esteem and lack of failure experiences as well as behavior not learned and being inadequately prepared for life's realities, as dicussed above.    Culture would also include behaviorial influences from popular culture such gansta rap, video games, violent movies, etc that were not in existence or as prevalent in the past as they are today.

[shbaz]

Speaking as someone who really wanted to kill a bunch of morons in high school it's a general feeling of hopelessness with their situation.

Here are the basics:

1. You are required by law to go to public school until a certain age

2. A lot of teachers, obviously not all of them, are complete morons and will try to indoctrinate you with all kinds of obviously false history for the purpose of patriotism, which makes you hate your country and the people in it in general instead.  These are the people in control of your life for 8 hours a day every weekday, and you grow to hate them for their stupidity but can do absolutely nothing about it, they have absolute control over you.  Anything you say to contradict them is wrong, they will tell you so, and they will not hesitate to embarrass you for your grasp of reality in front of everyone in your class.

3. High school has a dog-eat-dog mentality for males.  The "different" ones are picked on mercilessly, both physically and mentally.  They're not really weak, just different, and they know this.  They feel increasingly driven to prove it the more the attacks continue, and if they can't do anything about it physically through fighting (which will draw the wrath of the administration, who have a blind eye to the dog-eat-dog attitude, that's just "the way kids are") then they turn to sometimes drastic measures.

4. Even though you can get out or pass a GED once you're in High School everyone, and I do mean everyone, tells you that you'll be a complete moron and loser for the rest of your life, make no money, and get no women if you drop out, which is simply not true and creates a pit of disparity. Matt Stone was interviewed for Bowling for Columbine and he said he would've told the kids if he could (roughly), "High school isn't everything. You get into honors math in the seventh grade, and if you don't do good in that then you can't get into honors math in the eighth grade, and ninth grade, and so on, and your life is over.  They create this atmosphere of disparity and high school really isn't everything, it'll be over in like, four years, but it seems like an eternity."

5. [from a Columbine student video]
Student #1: What's your views on high school?
Student #2: Uh, I love it. I learn, I get picked on by bastards who hate me, and the principal's a dick.


Don't get me wrong, I had some very very good friends in school from an early age, and I still hang out with them all the time now.  It's just that ALL of us had the same feeling about high school, and without each other for support there's no telling what we could've done.  You know what?  Probably a massive number of kids have had the intense urge to shoot up their school.  The only thing that we can do about it is reform the goddamn public education system, which is a massive cesspool anyway.  It's come to the point where they are far more concerned with getting everyone to pass than actually holding a high standard.  This is why athletics are God and everyone comes out with a dazed expression and a vague grasp for the basics of what they were supposed to know intimately by the end.

I also know that there will be no education reform.  At a local political debate a couple of years ago there was an old lady and former teacher running for re-election in a state congressional seat.  The speaker kept saying, "You know, some of these people don't have opponents and don't deserve opponents.  Especially this woman, who is a lifetime educator and cares deeply for our schools."  A man stands up, "Excuse me, I'm her opponent."  He later gets the mic for his few minutes to talk about his concerns and he goes on a diatribe about what's wrong with the education system and how poor the funding and pay are, how this woman hasn't done anything to improve it, he even cited bills that would've passed but she had lobbied down with her standing in the congress as a former educator, then the old lady totally shut him down to massive applause.  Way to go, one more for the team.

[sharksweetheart]

.

[EagerMind]

Just last night, my wife was telling me that she was nervous about us moving to America because there are so many shootings in schools there and she didn't want our daughter anywhere near that.

I'd feel much safer with my kid in school than, say, crossing the street ... and just for comparison (open pdf link, page 44 and later for summary ... also covered in this article).

[Cino]

There was a good movie made in Estonia this year, that adresses what leads to such bloodbaths. It's called "Class" and left me quite breatheless and disturbed for days, but I'm not sure if it's available in english yet.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0988108/

[Akatosh]

There was an interview about that in a german games magazine some time ago, shortly after the latest school shooting in Germany, with a person who said of himself that he nearly went on a shooting spree once, and it pretty much backs up what has been said in this thread before: Make somebody physically inferior an outsider, continue to bully him all the time, don't let him get any help or chance to change his situation whatsoever, then give him access to firearms and you've created an amok runner.

That's at least what the magazine said >.>

[voh]

Make somebody physically inferior an outsider, continue to bully him all the time, don't let him get any help or chance to change his situation whatsoever, then give him access to firearms and you've created an amok runner.

:applause:

[Raggit]

I tend to strongly agree with RickJ and Shbaz on this one. 

I personally don't find the news of these shootings surprising in the least.  When Virginia Tech happened, I was like "Oh, that's sad," but it really didn't shock me in the least.  I'm just used to hearing about it.

And that's all because the educational system and culture in America is so screwed up.  "OF COURSE they shot up their school!  What did you expect!!?," is generally what runs through my mind when I hear about these things. 

What DOES shock me is what RickJ said, about the elimination of competitive sports and red ink, and so on.  I mean, I knew that they're becoming more and more sensitive to anything that might suggest aggressiveness, but I guess I just couldn't imagine that it's gone this far.

[shbaz]

Extra reading:
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=701388

[voh]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/11/europe/EU-GEN-Netherlands-School-Stabbing.php

School stabbing here in the Netherlands, today. Sixth such occurrance this year. 16-year old stabbed over a fight concerning a BALLPOINT PEN. A 14 year old stabbed a 16 year old in the NECK with a knife.

What. The. Fuck.

The world's a fucked up place.

[shbaz]

I know what will fix it!

Take away the guns.

Oh wait..

[tube]

I know what will fix it!

Take away the guns.

Oh wait..

At least those school stabbings rarely seem to result in more than one casualty. It's quite a bit harder (both physically and mentally) for a teenager to go on a suicidal killing spree armed with a knife than with a gun.

AFAIK no-one said that making it harder to get access to guns would make everyone just get along, but to me one less casualty would be enough of a justification, especially when there's no good reason not to.

So I think your sarcasm is a bit misdirected.

[InCreator]

School violence, what else?

Violence isn't in kids shooting guns, but the things that lead to this.

I remember my 7th and 8th grade, it was hell on earth. If I had access to a firearm at this time, It's quite possible that I would be a piece of statistics. It all starts from kids that doesn't get any physical scolding, I think. I almost never bullied a classmate, because when I was little, my grandpa (and dad, sometimes), took a belt off his pants and gave me this old-school lesson about not behaving and limits to behaving. Almost as my father told me "never attack before physical contact, words don't mean a thing", and it rarely got worse than words... Knowing that being hurt is bad, I rarely did that to anyone else. And all human/children rights activists, eat mud.
I turned out a perfectly normal kid.

There were kids who didn't, and to whom bullying was just an interesting game. There was a girl everybody picked on, and she even made into TV talking about school violence. Fear in replacing "her position" caused no-one to help her. Strongest boy in class punched her into face once and it stays most disgusting view I've ever witnessed. I know that she was desperate enough to go into war against whole city and kill everyone in sight. If she only could. Weird enough, after school, she picked career in security and is a security guard AFAIK.

[shbaz]

So I think your sarcasm is a bit misdirected.

I think it isn't, but who needs another gun debate.

[Gord10]

@InCreator: I couldn't agree more :/

I ended up being someone acceptable in the society as I haven't committed a serious crime of violence during my youth despite of everything done to me. But I still can't help feeling a little regret for not going to the school with my father's gun someday and killed/injuried the bullies whenever I see the news of school shootings. I would end up in jail and every good things in my life would collupse, but am still not sure my life would be worse.

[RickJ]

With regard to schoolyard bullies, they have been around since before there were schools and in times past when everyone carried a gun everywhere they went.  What's different now is that in addition to things, of which I already spoke and that are now fashionable in public schools, is the silly notion that everything can be solved by just talking about it (i.e. diplomacy, negociation, conflict resolution theapy).   The problem is that this assumes that each party has something to gain through peaceful resolution, which is not always the case.   

Appeasement just  encourages a bully to make more demands because there is downside. This is especially true if the bully knows that the victim will avoid a physical confrontation at all costs.  The most effective way to deal with a bully is for the victim to not meet any demands and make it clear that a physical confrontation is preferable to giving in to coercion.   It doesn't hurt the situation if the bully believes his intended victim is a little bit crazy either. 

I have taken my share of bullying and it stopped whenever I found the courage to stand up for myself.   In my case the kid was 4 years older, which is a lot when you are only 10-11 years old) and a foot taller.   The last time he bothered me I chased him for a block with bood red anger in my heart.  I caught him and tore in to him like a lion.  I didn't win the fight by a long shot but he got the point that screwing with me was more trouble than it was worth.  They have a saying in my wife's family that "Sometimes you have to loose in order to win!". 

I don't mean to criticize anyone here, but in my opinion, it doesn't take any courage at all to pick up a gun and go after someone who is unarmed.   If you have the courage to stand your ground in the face of a physical confrontation which you probably can't win, will discourage your would be bully and earn respect from your peers.   

Sharksweatheart, I know there is a double standard for girls and that they are expected to use guile and finesse instead of brute force.  However, I think the same principles apply though the implementation details may differ.   

P.S. In case anyone tries to take my advice, for God's sake if you get in a fight make sure there are no weapons, you know guns, knives, etc.