Searching For Film Nour Tunes

[jetxl]

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

It is true.

What a good argument! Seen as you have not said one thing that backs your arguments up in this discussion, this doesnt make any sense.

I wouldn't be the first.

I was just about to argue the same thing. So what if a couple of professors have they're own opinions. Disagreement won't reveal any sort of truth or lies. This issue is not black and white.

This is my point. Things is not all black and white, as Jet makes it look. Sure, some film noirs may have some sort of sub-plot. But not all, as Jet claims.

Plot has nothing to do with theme. You could have a Romeo and Juliet in space. But you do need two groups who both feel superior to the other. You say that this is b&w thinking?

Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

Well, you have this fear because of sci-fi media like the X-Files. If I see an alien I don't know how to react. Should I set it on fire or give it a glass of water. I just don't know (apart from taking a picture).

Was that a quote from a movie, Pesty? It sounds familiar.

[MrColossal]

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

Exactly! Somtimes an alien is just an alien, sometimes a movie dealing with a dark gritty storyline has nothing to do with secret feelings towards black people learning to read, therefore not all film noir can be generalized! We agree finally.

ps, "I wouldn't be the first." just because you feel other people haven't offered examples to back up their arguements doesn't mean you don't have too since you're the one that brought the whole thing up.

[Pesty]

...but you're really good at finding racism in things that have no racism, like the X-Files so maybe I got the point across wrong.

Things that have no racism at all, or things that have no more racism than everything else?

I think it's unfair to say that racism is specifically a film noir theme. I also think it's unfair to say that film noir does not contain any racism. Everything is a product of its time; racism was prevalent in the time of film noir, and it's still prevalent, though less obviously than before, today. I think ildu summed up my point on this quite well in an earlier post.

Yeah, I didn't really mean things don't have any racism at all. I know a lot of things are racist to a point, but to say the X-Files is racist because sometimes there are mean aliens that spook people is kind of silly.

And by kind of, I mean super totally.

Jet: Dude, I'm not saying all aliens want to shove their ovipositors in me, but if they intend to, I don't want them to. That doesn't make me a racist! I don't think I'm better than the alien who wants to kill me, I just don't want a belly full of squirmy baby aliens. If it has no intention of doing anything mean to me, they can drink out of my water fountain all they want.

And no, it's not a quote from a movie. I'm just awesome.

[Snarky]

Blade Runner is not noir, hmmm.

I did not say that. You need to read more closely.

When critics and academics talk about film noir (without explicitly qualifying or extending the term), they mean a set of movies made between the late thirties and the late fifties or early sixties. This is the classic film noir. Everything made in a similar vein since then is neo-noir or post-noir. The difference is that film noir had become a recognized genre with its own name and easy-to-spot style. The later movies were therefore often consciously mimicking the classic films noir.

Blade Runner isn't even a mainstream neo-noir film. It is also a science fiction movie. That makes it tech-noir, or future noir. Tech-noir films have several distinct characteristics that separate them from other noir.

Therefore, Blade Runner is not a good example. It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

This example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.

Did you not understand what I wrote?

Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

A contradiction.

Hmmm?

And we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.

Screw you.

A hypocrit.

You really do carry a grudge, don't you?
In an interesting bit of circularity, that casual remark was in response to you calling me a hypocrite back then. History truly does repeat itself.

You implied that noir had a xenophbic messsage when you said: "It shows the fear for ethnic minorities like blacks, latino's, homo's, jews and in the X-files even aliens is correct."
If all you're really saying is that repression of minorities is a theme in film noir, that the genre brings the issue up for discussion, you'll have to explain again why you "hate Noir."

"xenophbic messsage," never said that. The evil in the world are ethnic minorities. Which would make it a theme, just like a film set in space would have a space theme.

"The evil in the world are ethnic minorities."
That's a thesis, or a message. You could loosely call it a theme, but since "theme" can also mean a topic or a subject matter, I prefer a more unambiguous word.

And I guess we finally have your argument stated in proposition form: According to film noir, the evil in the world is ethnic minorities.

That's a pretty strong statement, and one I haven't seen you produce one shred of real evidence for.

(As an aside, if you want to sound intellectual, use "methinks." "Me think" makes you sound like a cave man.)

And you don't know how a cave man talks like. (I bet you claim you do)

Is it possible that I was talking about cave men as portrayed in popular culture? Snarky think so.

Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Why do you bring up rhetorical devices in the first place?

I use rhetorical devices to make my posts more dynamic, and because it amuses me.

[Kinoko]

Hahahahahahaha!

Oh my gut hurts... this thread has to stop.

I was once again wondering how a fairly blah thread got to 4 pages overnight. I should have guessed, but silly old me. I didn't expect this ^_^

Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

This almost made me pee, it was so funny!

Right.

Serious response.

Jet, now I've watched most of the X-Files. A lot. The first 4 seasons are sitting on a shelf in my house. Possibly the 5th too, I can't remember. I haven't seen all that much Noir though so I'll leave that one alone.

The X-Files isn't paranoia about aliens. All you people who said that should be ashamed of yourselves.

The paranoia in X-Files is related to the government! Anyone who honestly thinks the struggle in the X-Files is about the aliens is wrong. The real struggle is Mulder and to a lesser degree Scully's constant fight with the higher-ups, their realisation that they're being used and yet must allow themselves to do so in order to continue their work, and their bitter struggle to discover just what the feck the government is DOING or has done in the past.

Let's not forget the show is only -somtimes- about aliens. Heck, not even that often. MOST episodes are about guys that can fit through keyholes, and people that can set things on fire. Strange bugs that eat you alive brought about by prehistoric natural distaster, and occasionally the supernatural - ghosts.

Occasionally, we'll get an alien episode. These got more frequent as the show went on, and I might point out, as the show got WORSE. But that's a mute point.

Admittedly, the continuous storyline in the show revolved around aliens, but it ended up being less about aliens and more about super humans. And yet, through all this, the MAIN theme was the struggle of two FBI agents against a hidden government and all the dynamics of the lies and truths surrounded with the information they were given from "friends" and "enemies".

The X-Files was about GOVERNMENT at the heart of it. THAT was the paranoia!

GOVERNMENT!

Okay, now that we have that fact established (and I challenge you to ask any other self respecting X-Files fan to disagree with that... if so, I'll retract my statement that that was a fact), let me address your point of you without going through all of your arguments as everyone else has done.

Now, I can't say with 100% certainty that you're wrong. Noone can. Noone except Christ Carter, and the dozens and dozens of individual writers that wrote episodes for the show. But your ideas are really just insane. Chris Carter wrote a story about wacky things happening to two FBI agents. He never planned on the show being as popular as it was, or running for as long. Of course aliens were a common theme, they're something most humans are sure must exist through sheer mathetical probability and YES, humans are, as any creature is, afraid of the unknown. I personally have very little fear of aliens, and I'm instead deathly afraid of ghost girls with bleeding eyes. Meh, that's me.

But anyway, as I said before, that show was NOT about aliens in the first few seasons. It was about anything strange. It was about strange happenings. The common theme throughout it all was a fight with the government, and secrets surrounding them. Because THAT'S what people hav in this world, particularly in a place like America. It's a very romantic notion to think that the people that control our lives are hiding things from us. Chris Carter didn't even know -what-, which is why the show was so bloody ambiguous and went for so long (I half suspect Lost is doing the same thing), but he made it up as he went along, trying to make it all seem mysterious and sinister, and keep the viewers watching.

The reason the central focus is on aliens and not scary Russian worm bacteria, is because that's already a common theme in American culture. Roswell! Duh! Western culture is obsessed with stories about "real-life" alien encounters. Many, many people believe aliens have already visited Earth, so it's a VERY convenient plot to say that's what the government is hiding. Something that will make us go, "I KNEW it, you bastards!".


Now, one of the most tell-tale signs that your argument, Jet, is crazy, is that everyone thinks you're crazy! It's again a very romantic notion to think you know it all, you know what noone else has thought of (besides some weirdo woman on the internet) and we're all wrong. We just haven't opened our eyes, right? In actuality, the X-Files is one of the biggest TV shows ever and a good deal of people watching it are smart, are looking for symbolism in places it doesn't exist (far more in this show than in most others!) and many of those have even studied American psychology/racism studies. And yet, you're the only one here to have even heard of this theory. It's barely a theory because as far as I can tell, in the whole world, it's just you and this other woman.

Of course, it would be a kind of delicious irony if it turned out we were all just trying to throw you, the young Mulder, off track ^_^ But I think that would prove my point also.

[Pesty]

So the X-Files is...racist against the government?

[Kinoko]

Oh yeah! Dude, where have you been? DUH.

[Squinky]

Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

And don't forget, they'll take all of our jobs too!

[Kinoko]

Oh, Squinky, your comment way back on the second page or so made me laugh a lot too ^_^ Can't remember what it was, but good stuff!

[Squinky]

Thank you, I'm here all week.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Noone except Christ Carter...

I love that typo...

[Pesty]

Listen, pal, I don't want any aliens coming along, ripping my head off, and laying their eggs down my throat so that their alien babies can incubate in my still warm corpse until they hatch and eat my remains. If that's racism, then yes, I'm racist against aliens who want to rip my head off and lay their eggs down my throat. Don't drink out of my water fountain, egg-laying aliens!!!

And don't forget, they'll take all of our jobs too!

Oh my god, you're right! This brings new meaning to illegal alien!
Our society will be corrupt! Noooooo

Next the aliens will want the vote and the ability to marry our pureblooded white women!! Not in MY backyard, my friend!

[passer-by]

MOST episodes are about guys that can fit through keyholes, and people that can set things on fire. Strange bugs that eat you alive brought about by prehistoric natural distaster, and occasionally the supernatural - ghosts.

Indeed. It's most about paranormal than extraterrestrians. And I can't see why I should say hello to the mother of all cockroaches I found on my door handle the other day, just in case it is a friendly alien. I'm too old to scream, but the beast ended up in the garden...Brrr.

Occasionally, we'll get an alien episode. These got more frequent as the show went on, and I might point out, as the show got WORSE. But that's a mute point.

No, that was season 8, when we got religion in the classic X-filesque distorted way: A baby from a woman who was not supposed to have it, a man who rises from the dead, people who follow a bright light on the sky and find the birthplace, which is a filthy building in nowhere,etc etc...


I do think most films/shows/books have racial content, consciously or not, but I can't accept it's their main purpose...They just use what is available in the culture around them. First it was the Russians, then the Serbs, now the Iraqui, the Chinese started appearing from nowhere...And haven't you noticed how series like Startrek, Stargate etc describe a route to unification of all Earth under one Nation (depends on the series to say which one) and, having cleared all threats and cultural mistakes, they proceed to -conquering discovering new worlds? I'm not sure the producers/writers/directors do it on purpose, they just "read" the spectators minds...and know that it will sell and that somehow, someone like me will think they are revealing and say in a few years "See? I told you the government was working on pulsar weapons!!"

Still, I 'm not sure how all this will help the original poster find some tunes...

[jetxl]

Where was I, ah yes, 2:45 am.

I came to the conclusion first, then I read the article.

As he already said, he believed it was an orange already.

And sometimes things are just as they appear.

Exactly! Somtimes an alien is just an alien, sometimes a movie dealing with a dark gritty storyline has nothing to do with secret feelings towards black people learning to read, therefore not all film noir can be generalized! We agree finally.

I salute thee.

*jet, gives Eric a firm handshake

And no, it's not a quote from a movie. I'm just awesome.

VG cats.

Blade Runner is not noir, hmmm.

I did not say that. You need to read more closely.
When critics and academics talk about film noir (without explicitly qualifying or extending the term), they mean a set of movies made between the late thirties and the late fifties or early sixties. This is the classic film noir. Everything made in a similar vein since then is neo-noir or post-noir. The difference is that film noir had become a recognized genre with its own name and easy-to-spot style. The later movies were therefore often consciously mimicking the classic films noir.
Blade Runner isn't even a mainstream neo-noir film. It is also a science fiction movie. That makes it tech-noir, or future noir. Tech-noir films have several distinct characteristics that separate them from other noir.
Therefore, Blade Runner is not a good example. It doesn't fall under the strict definition of "film noir," and the type of film it is differs in important respects from what's normally understood by film noir.

It doesn't fall under film noir, yet it is film noir. A contradiction.

This example is only evidence if you accept that The X-Files is noir. Since in a later post you argue that The X-Files is a noir show because of its xenophobia, this is a circular argument.

Your culture is part of your identity. Loss of ones culture is loss of identity.

Did you not understand what I wrote?

Did you understand what I wrote, because what film noir tries to prove is that ethnic minorities are a threat, not people.

Based on this evidence, it would be more reasonable to argue that "minorities corrupt family values" is a message found in science fiction, not film noir.

A contradiction.

Hmmm?

In American hard-boiled detective fiction, hoodlums are repeately cast as foreigners and marginals, those who must be beaten back because they pose a threat to the white, heterosexual, middle-class values.

And we're back to insults. Classy.
I guess it's hard to accept that I just don't care enough about you to remember.

Screw you.

A hypocrit.

You really do carry a grudge, don't you?
In an interesting bit of circularity, that casual remark was in response to you calling me a hypocrite back then. History truly does repeat itself.

Nope. I don't know if you carry a grudge eighter, so I make my stand point very clear.

"The evil in the world are ethnic minorities."
That's a thesis, or a message. You could loosely call it a theme, but since "theme" can also mean a topic or a subject matter, I prefer a more unambiguous word.
And I guess we finally have your argument stated in proposition form: According to film noir, the evil in the world is ethnic minorities.
That's a pretty strong statement, and one I haven't seen you produce one shred of real evidence for.

This isn't new. I'm not the first one to claim this, sadly. Whitey left the city, leaving behind the scum. In Bladerunner, the upper and middle class left the planet.

Why don't you respond to the substance of my arguments instead of criticizing my rhetorical devices?

Why do you bring up rhetorical devices in the first place?

I use rhetorical devices to make my posts more dynamic, and because it amuses me.

Is this why you are so bitter?

Oh my gut hurts... this thread has to stop.

Yes, lets have all the same feelings thoughts and opinions.

Jet, now I've watched most of the X-Files. A lot. The first 4 seasons are sitting on a shelf in my house. Possibly the 5th too, I can't remember. I haven't seen all that much Noir though so I'll leave that one alone.
The X-Files isn't paranoia about aliens. All you people who said that should be ashamed of yourselves.
The paranoia in X-Files is related to the government! Anyone who honestly thinks the struggle in the X-Files is about the aliens is wrong. The real struggle is Mulder and to a lesser degree Scully's constant fight with the higher-ups, their realisation that they're being used and yet must allow themselves to do so in order to continue their work, and their bitter struggle to discover just what the feck the government is DOING or has done in the past.

X-Files has many paranoia and anxieties. Fear of the government is just one.

Okay, now that we have that fact established (and I challenge you to ask any other self respecting X-Files fan to disagree with that... if so, I'll retract my statement that that was a fact), let me address your point of you without going through all of your arguments as everyone else has done.

X-Files has many paranoia and anxieties. Fear of the government is just one.

Now, I can't say with 100% certainty that you're wrong. Noone can. Noone except Christ Carter, and the dozens and dozens of individual writers that wrote episodes for the show. But your ideas are really just insane. Chris Carter wrote a story about wacky things happening to two FBI agents. He never planned on the show being as popular as it was, or running for as long. Of course aliens were a common theme, they're something most humans are sure must exist through sheer mathetical probability and YES, humans are, as any creature is, afraid of the unknown. I personally have very little fear of aliens, and I'm instead deathly afraid of ghost girls with bleeding eyes. Meh, that's me.

You eighter love sci-fi or hate it. The X-Files was a giant hit. Carter must have done something that apealed to the masses. Enter paranoia culture. Carter is no fool who just ramdomly wrote words down and handed it out to FOX. He knew what he was doing.

Now, one of the most tell-tale signs that your argument, Jet, is crazy, is that everyone thinks you're crazy! It's again a very romantic notion to think you know it all, you know what noone else has thought of (besides some weirdo woman on the internet) and we're all wrong. We just haven't opened our eyes, right? In actuality, the X-Files is one of the biggest TV shows ever and a good deal of people watching it are smart, are looking for symbolism in places it doesn't exist (far more in this show than in most others!) and many of those have even studied American psychology/racism studies. And yet, you're the only one here to have even heard of this theory. It's barely a theory because as far as I can tell, in the whole world, it's just you and this other woman.

Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

The tyranny of the ignorant majority over the discoveries of the minority.
The majority say adventure games are dead. So according to you, your own adventure game does not excist.

Of course, it would be a kind of delicious irony if it turned out we were all just trying to throw you, the young Mulder, off track ^_^ But I think that would prove my point also.

I just answer the questions that I can answer. If you don't want to believe me then I'm sorry I failed you. But I'm not making this up. It is odd that some react as if they have found out Santa Clause isn't real, and yet want to contradict this.

[passer-by]

Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

What they say is not necessarily a lie, but keep in mind that some other professor in some other Uni may have written a thesis on the same theme with different opinions. I don't know of any, but writing contradicting books and handing them to students as exam material  happens all the time in the academic world and that's what keep thinking students interested. They compare and decide.  Well, they write what they must at the exam, but they can still disagree...

[ManicMatt]

When I went to school, we had this english teacher that would write on the chalkboard, masses of paragraphs for us to copy, and as she wrote it we would point out all the mistakes she's made, like spelling and gramma.

Also I am reminded of when my mother came from America as a little girl and moved to england. The teachers would tell her she is spelling words wrong, for example "You missed out the 'u' in colour".

Maybe this just shows that many english teachers are rubbish. Oh well.

[vict0r]

I wouldn't be the first.

You wouldn't be the first to what? Come up with lame arguments you cant back up? Oh... Yeah... Rharpe do that alot too...

The tyranny of the ignorant majority over the discoveries of the minority.
The majority say adventure games are dead. So according to you, your own adventure game does not excist.

So what you are saying, is that you actually think that you are smarter than us? Your second comment actually disagree with that. The fact that commercial adventure games, has a small chance of returning, doesnt mean that peoples hobbies vanish in thin air.

[jetxl]

Don't forget that my teachers and the 80 students they lecture must be crazy too. No, sometimes things are just like as Christy Burns, prof. Verhoeven and I say it is.

What they say is not necessarily a lie, but keep in mind that some other professor in some other Uni may have written a thesis on the same theme with different opinions. I don't know of any, but writing contradicting books and handing them to students as exam material happens all the time in the academic world and that's what keep thinking students interested. They compare and decide. Well, they write what they must at the exam, but they can still disagree...

True, but it was part of the paranoia culture that was discussed that week. A major part in how Americans think. You can't skip that part.

I wouldn't be the first.

You wouldn't be the first to what? Come up with lame arguments you cant back up? Oh... Yeah... Rharpe do that alot too...

To answer your question:
Simply put. Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.
I could say that the butler who doesn't think much of the main character in sunset boulevoir is german, therefore the bad guy. (spot the bad guy)
However, his german blood is unimpotant in the movie. (He's 99% American)
Yet it does explain why he acts in an "un-american" way (from powerfull director to lapdog). (Shag a german and women will rule the world, therefore destroy the family structure I.E. family values. Keep things American, die like a man, don't live like a lapdog)

[passer-by]

Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

But not everything that is one or all of them, is good. The villains are white, heterosexual, middle or upper class and usually male. So how this distinction shows a discrimination?

[jetxl]

Everything in film noir that isn't white, middle class, hetrosexual, male is bad.

But not everything that is one or all of them, is good. The villains are white, heterosexual, middle or upper class and usually male. So how this distinction shows a discrimination?

To throw the audience off. To keep the audience guessing and awake.
Besides, do you think that the public would tolerate a black criminal making more money than them?