Sexuality issues

[Dan_N]

Oh, and MrColossal and Dan, we'd like to hear about your views and experiences too, and not get this stuck on an argument

Hokay...

Well, I was raised by a Christian mother, and "urged" by my father to go on dates with girls. Needless to say, I didn't listen to either of them, and I'm now an atheist and I've had four girlfriends. But I disgress, I seriously have no problem with homosexuality, poligamy, monogamy, incest, and whatnot, (even though I'm heterosexual myself) as long as it's being carried out between two responsible and consenting people, be they teenagers or adults. I only have a problem with paedophilia, and zoophilia, because both presume that at least one of the persons involved have no ideea what's that sensation creeping up their passages... Necrophilia is half-fine, it's a bit creepy, though, and I don't feel confortable knowing that my dead grandmother is being penised, IMHO...

If two men, or two women, or four men and six women want a child, let them have it, let them have fourteen of 'em if they like, it's really no matter for anyone to intervene here...

[Captain Lexington]

What -specifically- is wrong with two men or two women having sex?  And if you say "it's icky", you lose.

You don't think it's wrong, but I do, because the Bible says so. God intended sex and marriage to be between one man and one woman. Heck, if he didn't, then why weren't Adam and Eve two men? 

Because two men can't reproduce!

[Becky]

I did post my views and experiences:

What consenting adults get up to in the privacy of their own home is no concern of the government or anyone else.  I have no issue with homosexuality at all, nor bisexuality or polygamy (though I myself am heterosexual and monagamous).  As long as they are consentual adult relationships, then people should be able to love and marry (in a legal sense, of course non-government-sponsored religious groups can refuse to marry whoever they want, as much as it annoys me) whoever they see fit.

Governments should encourage adoption and child fostering, and making it easier for both homosexual and heterosexual unions to legally adopt (as well as single parents) is desirable.

As your anti-homosexuality stance is based around religious principles, then I cannot really convert you from that.  However, you may wish to consider what impact religion should have on government policy, and whether the religious views of one population sector should be imposed upon everyone through law.

[Meowster]

Blacks and Jews are actual races of people- gays aren't. They make up an even smaller population than either group. 

OH MY GOD.

Blacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!


I also agree wholeheartedly with what Becky just said very well indeed:

what impact religion should have on government policy, and whether the religious views of one population sector should be imposed upon everyone through law.

[Helm]

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.


I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

[Raggit]

Oh dear.  It's happening all over again.

I remember one time a long time ago when I was basically saying all the same things Steel Drummer is saying now when somebody made a thread about a Leisure Suit Larry style game with homosexuality as the main theme.

I was saying terrible things that I regret now.  

[Helm]

Lemme guess. People trying to be your dad on the internet at the time didn't help, instead they fuelled your fire of ignorance.

[MrColossal]

Apologies.

It's all fear isn't it? People are afraid of sex [speaking as a USAer] even though the west is looked upon as sexually liberated. People are still deathly afraid of sex. Not really personal sex but what other people are doing. My saying that isn't anything new obviously but I find it funny when people consider themselves as sexually liberated but are still afraid of gay people.

Personally I am heartened by the fact that societies change and now it's not really a big deal with a black dude wanting to marry a white chick, at least in non-retarded places like the american south. Eventually people will be fine with gay marriage and we'll move on to hating genetically modified people marrying normal people, or aliens marrying our daughters!

The hindsight people fail to have is amazing. Look back at how stupid Americans were when it came to segregation and then look at the present at what you're doing to another class or people and realize "Oh yea, I might really regret this later..."

[Tuomas]

You can add Becky to that list as well.

And everyone else who posted

Necrophilia is half-fine, it's a bit creepy, though, and I don't feel confortable knowing that my dead grandmother is being penised, IMHO...

Because two men can't reproduce!

There's actually a reasonable point here. If someone should see the purpose of intercourse to be reproduction and not pleasure, I could personally accept that as an argument to why it's not meant for two men or two women to have sex with each other.

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

I would like to know why you posted this with such an attitude while I hoped we could keep this polite and really benefit from all this, everyone of us.

[The Ivy]

I just want to add that marriage itself isn't exactly a good platform for equality. Religions often dictate the kinds of work that men and women are expected to do within a marriage, but a good deal of legal and economic policies place women at a disadvantage. A few examples:

Some government "tuition assistance" programs in the US extend their benefits only to the "primary earner" of a household, effectively eliminating married women from the list of people who are eligible.

Government taxation in both the US and Canada often treats couples' income as "pooled" and taxes it as such; in this case women are actually paying more tax than they would be were they considered "single."

When childcare benefits are cut, the policies often say (explicitly and implicitly) that mothers or female relatives should pick up the slack.

Ironically enough, along with the push for equal marriage for gays and lesbians, there's also a movement to "de-legalize" the status of marriage. That is, let it be a religious institution, and a nominal one, but don't let it change the way the government chooses to view or tax you. Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution.

[LimpingFish]

I have a problem with gay people.

I demand they overtly mince down the street so I can see them coming!

MORE MINCING! DAMNIT!

[Helm]

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

I would like to know why you posted this with such an attitude while I hoped we could keep this polite and really benefit from all this, everyone of us.

I did this in hopes of helping the thread keep on the much more interesting original topic than having it become 'discuss with Yodaman's dad' again.

[Captain Lexington]

Because two men can't reproduce!

There's actually a reasonable point here. If someone should see the purpose of intercourse to be reproduction and not pleasure, I could personally accept that as an argument to why it's not meant for two men or two women to have sex with each other.

Well, you did take that out of context. I said that is why the Story of Adam and Eve isn't the Story of Adam and Evan. I certainly wouldn't believe the story 'In the beginning God created to men and they gave birth to all humanity. And then they decided women should give birth in the future.'

I have no problem with homosexuality myself.

[Raggit]

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

I have no problem with gays getting married at all. What else would you like to know, Tuomas?

I would like to know why you posted this with such an attitude while I hoped we could keep this polite and really benefit from all this, everyone of us.

I did this in hopes of helping the thread keep on the much more interesting original topic than having it become 'discuss with Yodaman's dad' again.

I don't get the 'yodaman's dad' references going around...   

On topic:  I really don't get the whole gay controversy thing.  I couldn't possibly care less about whether or not somebody is attracted to males or females, what they do behind close doors, or if they wanna get married.  Aren't there more important issues for our governments to deal with?

[Becky]

Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution.

The Ivy, I think that's a very interesting point you've raised, and a very important one I feel.  I'm not sure the situation here is quite the same, or at least not necessarily to the same extent, but it is something I shall have to take a look into.  If the legalisation of same-sex marriages would help create truly equal marriages across the whole of society, then that is surely a good thing.

[Tuomas]

Yeah but still, I see what you mean, but the same phrase could be drawn to further meanings.

And helm, I see, I'm just trying to keep it so that Steel Drummer wouldn't feel irritated to share his views too.

And Fish: ...Eh?

Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution.

The Ivy, I think that's a very interesting point you've raised, and a very important one I feel.  I'm not sure the situation here is quite the same, or at least not necessarily to the same extent, but it is something I shall have to take a look into.  If the legalisation of same-sex marriages would help create truly equal marriages across the whole of society, then that is surely a good thing.

I didn't know of such, in Finland when two people are married or living together, they're considered individuals, which means the main principles in the law are that both still have separate loans, taxes, wages, etc. Then of course you too have the marriage settlement, but I suppose that goes only when/if breaking up.

[Steel Drummer]

Blacks and jews are not races of people, Steel Drummer!

What are they, then- religions? :

If they're not races, why do they call it 'racism' when people player hate Jews? 

Yes, nice, keep feeding the troll. The troll will tell you what his dad thinks. Discuss with a bigotted idiot by proxy, it's great.

If by 'dad', then you mean God/Jesus Christ, then yes- that's what I'm doing. I'm not bigoted because I think that gay marriage shouldn't be legal.

Am I bigoted by saying abortion is wrong? Because I believe that it is. If you think I'm bigoted for saying that's wrong, then you must be bigoted against unborn children. 

One of Tuomas' previous posts

I agree. If you still need to vent, Helm, then go back to the other thread and post your head off there.   

Ironically enough, along with the push for equal marriage for gays and lesbians, there's also a movement to "de-legalize" the status of marriage. That is, let it be a religious institution, and a nominal one, but don't let it change the way the government chooses to view or tax you. Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution. 

I'd also add that, with two men or two women raising a child, the kid may get a sexist slant on things because of both parents, or in some cases, may not even grow up with good role models (just imagine if you were a girl growing up in a house with two men raising you). 

I did this in hopes of helping the thread keep on the much more interesting original topic than having it become 'discuss with Yodaman's dad' again.

I am the dad.

I don't get the 'yodaman's dad' references going around...   

Neither do I. If I'm 900 years old, my dad would sure as heck be dead by now...

No really, what makes you think I'm getting stuff from my dad?

[The Ivy]

Ironically enough, along with the push for equal marriage for gays and lesbians, there's also a movement to "de-legalize" the status of marriage. That is, let it be a religious institution, and a nominal one, but don't let it change the way the government chooses to view or tax you. Gay marriage introduces the possibility that maybe there doesn't have to be a "his" and "her" work dichotomy in the household...and the idea that two people might be entirely equal in their marriage is certainly a new one for the institution. 

I'd also add that, with two men or two women raising a child, the kid may get a sexist slant on things because of both parents, or in some cases, may not even grow up with good role models (just imagine if you were a girl growing up in a house with two men raising you). 

I dunno, I've got some single parent friends whose kids are just fine.

[LimpingFish]

And Fish: ...Eh?

Nevermind.

The gay marriage debate was in the news here again recently. Some lesbians lost the right to have their marriage recognized by the state.

I believe, in Ireland's case anyway, that the leading force behind the disregard for the rights of gay people is the church.

I can't see any other logical reason why gay people should be treated this way by a democratic government.

[Sam.]

just to add some facts, Tuomas, Gay People in Britain CAN get married, outside a church obviously, but married nontheless.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4497348.stm