Summer means no religion or politics?

[TerranRich]

Religion is not inherent to people. Religion is created by the part of our brain that tries desperately to see patterns within chaos, to see order where there is none. When there is a person with 5% chance of recovering from a brain tumor who suddenly recovers, one might see a miracle, an act of God... I tend to see the law of probability in effect, and a person who is fortunate enough to live another day.

[miguel]

Akatosh, then why didn't Mr.Harris go on with is meditation and left religion alone? He clearly wanted to make a point. In my opinion he just want attention.

Why should we mitigate our feelings? Mr. Harris feels good meditating. Okay, lets jump on him with everything we know against meditation, it just might work, or at least give us some air space or even write some books about it.
Although long lasting searches and studying of something can give us the full known extent of knowledge on the object/subject there's nothing like our intuition and personal experience to formulate a honest view of it.
Let me explain, I might be wrong, but if I didn't feel you are worth of my replies I would not have stick around this far.
Although we have complete differences in our view of the world I feel there is something that makes you worthily of my attention.
And all that through a piece of wire that connects us.

About Budhism, do you know about tales of the Buddha's past lives, of his miraculous powers, of the adventures of the Bodhisattvas; descriptions of pure-lands and hell-realms; libations and prayers are immense. If you think the Bible's got a monopoly on wild myths, go read the Buddhist sutras.
So, if you do take all the miracles and the old testament and the commandments of God maybe you'll find something positive about Catholic Church.
But those tales do connect us to the past and that is to be shared and past to the coming generations.

You may avoid your religious part but it will knock at your door eventually.

Again I say, being a Christian is something I choose not something the Vatican told me to be or follow. Although I have my respect for the Vatican.

The new texts found are being ignored mostly. Everything takes a long time for the Catholic Church to take actions. It's a cultural responsibility they hold and a heavy one indeed.

Khris, I'm sorry if I don't have the full extent of your knowledge regarding Mr.Harris but his main sound-bites are all over the net and I do not have the time to fully study him.
What I found was a man that refused some religions and made some theories about them but in the end decided to put everything to the ridicule and adopted something he re-invented called western Buddhism. Even the Buddhists nation isn't happy with him as he tried to strip naked something that is sacred to them.
Mr.Harris is a modern clown and I think I'll keep hearing about him for a while.
I am so perplexed about your tendency to adore the denying deities of our modern world. Go on and buy his books, there's nothing there that you aren't capable of conceiving or that you can't compile through several authors. He says nothing in my opinion and brings no happiness to the world I live.

Biological/genetic/brain mechanisms are ours and no one else, so if people do invent religions in a way they cannot avoid then it's inherent to them, my friend.
Do you know how and why we dream, Khris? Your explanation is very flat, I'm sorry. I'm just an ignorant but I think there are dozen of different opinions that quite frankly reduce your explanation to something I would tell on a coffee shop conversation after some beers.

SSH, I was beginning to think I was the last survivor here.

TerranRich, if that is so, then why some people are enlightened and are capable of seeing those patterns and others don't?
Aren't we all born equal? 

     

 

[TerranRich]

Who ever said we were born equal? People are supposed to have the sense of sight, yet some people are born blind.

[Khris]

miguel:

You may avoid your religious part but it will knock at your door eventually.

No. This is something you need to realize. No, for us it won't.
(Except in the form of Jehova's Witnesses probably.)

Again I say, being a Christian is something I choose

When, and why? How old were you, why did you choose Christianity, why not another religion? I'm really curious.
Or is it because you're from friggin' Portugal, a god-fearing, deeply Catholic country, and loosing your mother when you were eight...?

About Harris

I'm not surprised in the least that Buddhists get offended after reading Harris, every religious, humorless, self-conscious nutcase does when somebody "offends" their sacred religion by questioning its veracity.
(Please read this right, I didn't say religious people are all humorless, self-conscious nutcases!)

If he really is such a clown, I'm sure there are some non-religious(!) sound-bites from people who critically address what Harris does. Why don't you link me to those if they are as convincing as you say.

(Before you do this, though, is Dawkins a clown, too? Or Hitchens, or Dennett? Or is Harris really a special case?)

religion is inherent

Are donuts inherent? Child porn? We invented those, you know, in a way we couldn't avoid, it seems. Ok, maybe not donuts.
Point here: even if religion was inherent, that doesn't automatically make it something good or worthwhile. It may just be a evolutionary misfiring (in fact, that's exactly what some propose, and I tend to agree).

I don't care how or why we dream, at least that wasn't what my argument was about. It was about the sheer power of the brain to fuck us over.
So let me rephrase that: if we see or feel something that doesn't seem natural, there's a probability (very close to 1) that it's still just in our head.

[Nacho]

I agree somehow that religion is inherent... Leave a group of man in a jungle and in that generation, the next one or two after, as much, they will invent some kind of religion, but... is that good? Inherent to man=good? I don't think so. Take a look to the third wave events, the Stamford prison experiment or the Milgram experiment. Human being can create the best, but also the worst.

So, if inherent to human nature doesn't necesarilly mean good, at least we should see if what religion says is TRUTH. If there was an universal religious source (A God) every isolated man in every isolated jungle should reach to the same conclussion: There is a God, and the teachings of that God are X, Y and Z. That doesn't happen. Some civilizations reach to the conclussion that there is a God, some others think there are several, some people think God is a man of infinite goodness, some other think it's a warrior God, some others think every natural event is a God doing divine stuff... A real mess, a mess that reveals that humans invent Gods, and not the opposite.

[miguel]

TerranRich, are you claiming blind people are inferior?

Khris, in one hundred years when we mentally post here with some tech thingy while having a crap we might discuss it further.

I knew you would go this way.
Okay, when did I chose to be a Christian? I was about 26 I guess. After doing everything I could to hurt my body and my mind I decided it was time to stop.
The fact I was born in Portugal sure had a big influence on it, yes.
The death of my mother made me hate God if you really want to know.

Sacred things aren't bad, Khris. It's a legacy from our elders and we should respect it, even if we consider them merely tales.

You did mention Harris to me, it wasn't the other way around. I told you what I think of him with no regret. This is the man that writes against everything I believe.

Nacho, I got to go to work. I'll reply when I can. See ya later.

If you think religious people are just people who's brains are f..... up then I can only say that I don't agree.
I function perfectly in my society and am sociable with people that don't agree with me. I consider myself a sane man.
Of course my dreams exist only in my head. You mean that if they are weird then I'm weird too?
Are all your dreams based on logic?

[Khris]

miguel:
Were you approached by somebody? Or did you one fine day pick up the bible and decided all the stuff in there happened? I'm curious how exactly you came to be a Christian at the age of 26.
When you say you hurt your body, I assume you were taking drugs or something similar. What does this have to do with becoming a Christian? It's your body, and you can do to it whatever you want. What should have stopped you is realizing that you're a father and a husband, not Jesus.

Sacred things are bad if they make people do bad things. To me, nothing is sacred. It's all just stuff.

About Harris, I'd still be curious where or how you've formed that particularly bad and wrong image of him.

If you think religious people are just people who's brains are f..... up then I can only say that I don't agree.

I didn't say that. Gee, I really hate explaining myself over and over again, am I really expressing myself that unclear?
The brain is capable of making you see and hear and feel all kinds of things that aren't really there. I mentioned dreams because they are a perfect example of that power.
Combine that with the brain basically being a really advanced pattern recognition machine that often delivers false positives and you have a simple and sufficient explanation for every piece of anecdotal evidence for religious experiences or paranormal sightings.
(Remember, anecdotal "evidence" is all there is.)

[miguel]

Khris,
I wonder if you would ever be so franc and honest if I'd ask you personal questions.

I wasn't approached by anybody although it is common where I leave to find Catholic persons, my family is "half-Catholic/half-I really don't care". So yes, the teachings of the Bible is something I grew familiar with and there was a point in my life (from 10 to 12 years old) that I was going to church every Sunday.
So, was I a Christian at that age? Hardly, because if I was taken to a Buddhist temple instead there was nothing I could do about it.
When I entered teenage years I was just a normal kid and did begun to grow a taste for alcohol and cannabis. Christianity didn't have anything to do with it, instead I kind of followed the trend at the time and did vote for left wing parties when I reached 18, communism seamed very right to me. Refusing religion and God made perfect sense also as God didn't do a single thing to help my mother not to die. And also, grown up people were nagging around me all the time. The more they nagged the more I party!
At 17 I was earning my own money working at restaurants and bars, easy money and easy jobs because where I live tourists arrive by the thousands every summer.
At 25, 26 I felt that my life wasn't going anywhere and decided to start my own business so I calmed down a lot, got my interest in films and literature back, settled at a nice and cheap villa at the outskirts of town and got a steady job.
I raised money, took my drivers license and some years later I got a loan from a bank that made it possible to open my first business.
I was 29. I was clean and had all the energy to spend on it. I painted and wrote shitty stuff, I knew AGS and played aroun with game making. I played guitar in the toilet and sang in the shower. I was single and happy.
I must confess that my devotion to God grew a lot thanks to reading the classics and studying the renaissance artists. I fell in love with it and started to buy stuff related to Christianity.
It kind of grew with me at the same time I got my life back on tracks.
That year (2004/05) I found my wife that already had 2 kids from a previous marriage.
About 2 years ago my son was born.
There you go. I hope you know have the decency to tell me about your life.

The sacred and the damned:
Can I conclude by your words that if sacred things are good they make people do good things?

You do express yourself better than I do. The thing is you keep the rope very tight all the time. Sometimes it's better to give away some rope if you want to catch a big fish.
The brain is capable of many and great things indeed. One of it is to devise God in all is glory.     

[Dualnames]

"Arthur prayed and hoped there was an afterlife."

[TerranRich]

miguel, you're putting words into my mouth. At no point did I say blind people were inferior in any way other than missing a sense.

TerranRich, if that is so, then why some people are enlightened and are capable of seeing those patterns and others don't?
Aren't we all born equal?

I was speaking within the general context of what you said above. You asked why some people are capable of seeing those patterns and others aren't. I then pointed that some people are born without the ability to see.

As far as being "born equal", if  you mean with the same sets of abilities, then no. If you mean in terms of superiority (which I didn't think you meant), then yes, no one person is better than the other.

[Khris]

Miguel,
sure I would.
First though, from what you told me, it seems you have been a Christian all your life, just the amount of practicing it varied.
You went from indoctrinated kid to rebelling teenager, refusing religion and God. You still believed in him though. ("The death of my mother made me hate God")
So it seems you just refused praising him. Not later than that would I have considered that maybe there isn't one and "shit" just "happens", as they say. (Not to demean losing a loved one in any way.)
At the very least, I'd have ditched the concept of an all-powerful, loving god , i.e. the one of Christianity (at least according to the second edition, err, NT).
Later on, Christianity eased its way back into your life because you read stuff written by people who lived in a world dominated by religion.
Of course, labeling a child a Christian, as you seem to agree, is wrong, because they didn't make up their own mind about it (and probably can't, at that age).
But by and large, I suspect your indoctrination caused you to hate God (as opposed to: if he were real, he wouldn't do that to us). And a few years later, you made peace with him.

Well, as for me, I also grew up in a mixed household. My father's mother, having been raised in Russia, is an orthodox Catholic. After I was born, she sort of decided I had to be baptised, against my mother's will.
My father didn't interfere much, I think de doesn't really care much about religion, to him it's a traditional thing. Thus, the only times I came into actual contact with Catholicism was on Christmas when my father read Luke's(?) gospel, the part where Mary and Joseph travel to Bethlehem and have a child, and, unfortunately, in school. Bavaria is pretty Catholic, and as one myself I had religion classes until the 12th grade, I believe. In elementary school, we had to go to confession twice a year. It was all about memorizing stuff and I hated every bit of it. In grammar school, the teachers were jerks without exception, and there were mandatory and incredibly boring services at the beginning and end of each school year.

But, and I'm sure you'll agree, going to church and believing in god are totally different things.
And, like I said earlier in this thread, I pretty much became an "atheist" the moment I learned that not everybody is Catholic. I'm not sure, I guess I was around 12 or so.
Back then, being an atheist to me meant predominantly to reject any kind of religious practices and to stop labelling myself as a Catholic when asked. I was kinda proud and it was pretty amusing to see the reactions of grown ups to that (you know, 12 ).
The following years, I didn't really spend time on even thinking about religion. My mother would sometimes visit a lonely older women living next door, despite her trying to convert my mother. Afterwards, we had a grin about how friggin insane she seemed to be.
Thus, several years ago, I was pretty much an agnostic. When asked, I vaguely said there might be something there, yes, some energy or force, or whatever. Or not.
The topic started to become important to me when I heard of creationism for the first time. You see, until three or four years ago, I wasn't even aware that there are relatively large groups with absolutely insane beliefs. To me, the world was near the end of the process of exchanging superstition for science. I was completely amazed by the sheer numbers of people who believe in all kinds of superstitions, whether it's astrology, crystal healing, magic or one of the many many myths concerning nutrition, organic food, and similar stuff.
I've always been a very rational person, and I was fascinated by the extreme amount of irrationality abundant on earth. That's when I found out about Skepticism, the reliance on facts and evidence as a life philosophy, as opposed to swallowing all the supposed "knowledge" passed down by generations, e.g. "Thou shalt now swim directly after eating".
I discovered Randi and others like him, I learned that there are people in my circle of friends who actually believed that the candidates of the German version of "The Successor" could do real magic (until I showed them the youtube videos explaining the illusions) and greatly enjoyed myself watching Geller and similar fraudulent assholes getting debunked.
Being an atheist (I like skeptic much more) is just a consequence of how I view the world. Also, there are several extremely convincing arguments why the existence of the Christian God of the Bible is basically impossible.

So, in conclusion, I'm not against Christianity in particular. I'm simply against relying on tales by some random people when it comes to deciding whether to accept something as true or not.

[SSH]

Hmmm, Nacho and Khris have catholic backgrounds. Are there any protestant-turned-athiests on here?

[Akatosh]

I was raised Protestant (and later dropped the faith).

I suppose I would count, having even gone through Confirmation and all that (which makes me feel kinda guilty... I was already starting to have doubts back then, making this look sort of intellectually dishonest). Why'd you ask?

[Vince Twelve]

I was baptised Methodist, changed to Unitarian, and then to Unity.  Which, I suppose, some Christians would consider a downward spiral. Especially considering our pastor at Unity was a gay man and we had protesters outside our church each Sunday (Didn't they have somewhere else to be?  Like, say, church?)

[Bulbapuck]

I was raised Protestant (and later dropped the faith).

I suppose I would count, having even gone through Confirmation and all that (which makes me feel kinda guilty... I was already starting to have doubts back then, making this look sort of intellectually dishonest). Why'd you ask?

Make that two protestant-raised atheists who have gone through all those traditions and later wondering why SSH asked that question .

I don't know how it is in other countries but in Sweden it's simply assumed that you're christian.. Which is quite odd for us who aren't. In school it was basically manditory to go to church. Me and a freind of mine (also atheist) were silently outraged by this..
Is it like this everywhere else? And why aren't people outraged by this? Freedom of religion dammit!

[Akatosh]

It's kinda similar here, although it varies wildly depending on the region. In Berlin you're pretty much expected to be non-religious, whereas Bavaria is basically Vatican II.

[Matti]

Yeah. I live in Berlin and pretty much everyone I know is an atheist or agnostic.

I wasn't really raised in a religious way, though I remember that we used to pray before eating. But that was when I was very young and somehow stopped after a while, some years before my puberty started. While my mother believes in some strange esoteric stuff, my father wasn't religious at all and my brother neither.

The last time I had religion tought in school was in 8th grade if I remember correctly, afterwards I changed the religion course to an ethics course, and after another year I exited that course too (yes, we had these choices).

[miguel]

The last replies did sound a lot like everyone doing their catharsis relief.
Maybe we could call it over?
I don't know. Winter is coming and we'll have plenty of time to battle each other.
I was quite pleased with the overall dedication to this thread by many of us.
I'm very busy right now finishing up Blue Moon and playing KingsAge and would settle for some truce.
All the best to everyone!
Miguel

[Nacho]

Miguel leaves the thread!

God does not exist...

No replies?

We win!!!

Weeeeh!

[Stee]

T'm very busy right now finishing up Blue Moon and playing KingsAge and would settle for some truce.
All the best to everyone!
Miguel

A truce sounds fair.

I agree to disagree with everyone's religious beliefs and not judge you for it (except for scientology, which to be fair isn't a religion), providing you don't judge me for the lack of mine.

Do we all agree?