The BNP

[paolo]

Meowster, I think you not wanting them into the parliament(that's what I get) is racism too. You're being a racist against racists. We're supposed to have democracy (supposed to), so it's good to hear all thoughts. Even the bad ones. Even the racist ones.

Well, it would be discrimination rather than racism, because the BNP don't belong to any particular race (putting aside the fact that you have to be white to be a member).

Yes, it is fine to give a platform to racist viewpoints provided they are heard in the context of balanced debate, which they (hopefully) will be in the European Parliament.

[Matti]

What do you have against Banque Nationale de Paris???

I guess it's racism against the French (language)...

[Akatosh]

Appaling as this may be, I believe it'll be temporary. It's the old "easy answers to complicated questions" fallacy ("Immigrants stole my job! I behave the way I do because I have self-diagnosed Asperger's!" ) and especially if the established parties are (or look) unable to properly adress a given situation, people seem to be likely to fall for it. Let's give the established party leaders some time to stop being nitwits and listen to the PR guys, and the BNP will hopefully fall back into obscurity (although it won't vanish, some people are just idiots).

[Hudders]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8091605.stm

Hahaha.

BNP leader Nick Griffin has been pelted with eggs and forced to abandon a press conference outside Parliament.

Dozens of protesters disrupted the event, which follows the British National Party winning its first two seats in the European Parliament.

Chanting anti-Nazi slogans and holding placards they surrounded Mr Griffin as he was bundled into a car.

[BOYD1981]

That's actually more pathetic than it is funny, violence isn't the way to protest and is hardly going to get any of the BNP supporters to change their tune is it?

Also, no matter what his beliefs this is true:

"It's a very, very sad day for British democracy," he said.

"People should be entitled to hear what we have to say and to hear journalists question us robustly."

He described protesters as an "organised mob that's backed by all three main parties to stop us getting our message across to the public" and added: "It does not represent ordinary people."

It would actually have been much better to let the media handle the event, watching politicians squirm and repeatedly ignore questions is more damaging than seeing them chased off by a mob as it make them look like fools, not cowards.

[Stupot]

The majority of people voted for the BNP probably don't consider themselves racist.  Before the elections, someone close to me said (and I paraphrase), "I think I'm gonna vote for the BNP... I never thought of myself as racist, but I'm really worried, Stu.  Worried that us British are gonna end up being a minority in our own country.".

These are clearly the words of someone who reads too many tabloids and has fallen for the Party's emotive and pseudo-logical way with word's.  And unfortunately, the ignorant people who fall for this kind of guff are always among the small percentage who feel the need to vote.

I didn't vote because I'm fully aware of my ignorance about politics and didn't want to make an uninformed decision.  The majority of people who vote for the BNP are unaware of their ignorance, and honestly beleive they have their country's best interests at heart.  It's sad really.

[Nacho]

I think people should worry about the results of the elections before people vote. Having an active participation in the democracy game, asking people to vote this party or the other is, as far as I know, considered legal.

Doing it after is, in my opinion, not... Actually, if I am not mistaken, going against what people vote is just the opposite to democracy... Democracy is allow people to talk, and hear what they say. They say "BNP"? Okay, let' s start working from today so next time they won't say it.

But, honestly, if the only act people do about it is express their rage in some forums in the internet then that sounds to me like a childish tantrum.

[Meowster]

Dude, I disagree that internet forum discussion is just having a childish tantrum (necessarily) and/or pointless. The more discussion there is about this the better as far as I can see - maybe next time the voter turnout won't be so ridiculously low. Hopefully all the media attention from all this will show people how important it is that they vote, instead of having the attitude that it doesn't matter or somehow doesn't affect them. Same goes for the internet. Forum discussions ftw, I say!

[Nacho]

Is that going to happen by a forum discussion?

WOW!

I don't want to break your bubble but posting about things do not sollute them. I am sorry, I know that regularilly bringing stuff like that here calms your conscience but it actually works for... nothing.

[MoodyBlues]

No, forum discussions aren't going to save the world, but they do help people sort out their beliefs and try to defend them intelligently, just like face-to-face discussions.  Forums may not make a huge dent in voter turnout, but hey, it always helps to have more informed people in the world.

I've just learned something, anyhow.  I didn't know anything about the BNP before reading this thread.  Doesn't sound like a group of nice people to me - too reactionary and exclusive.

[Renal Shutdown]

A forum discussion is going to have next to zero impact on the next election.  Chances are, most (potential) British voters here, either:

1. Didn't bother voting for various reasons.  (top three reasons, i'd hazard a guess at couldn't be bothered, couldn't decide or didn't know it happened*).
2. Did vote, but didn't vote BNP, as they either agreed with another party's policies, or disagreed with the BNPs'.

It's preaching to the choir and maybe a couple of folk who walked in on practice.  We mostly agree that the BNP's not the best choice.  We might not vote, but we're not in agreement with the evil that some people believe parties like this represent.

At best, if the entire forum became british, and subsequently went out and voted next chance we had, then what? A couple of hundred more votes for a mixture of parties.  If we all lived in the same yorkshire (or east london) area, we'd dent the BNP votes at something like 1%.

Not that big a difference, is it?  Sure, you could do the same routine in a few other forums, but you'd still fail to make any impact on future elections.

I'm not saying having the discussion's pointless, as it MIGHT make someone rethink their opinion.  I don't want you having any allusions that this thread might make the world a better place, though.  Chances are pretty high that it won't.  If you really want to make a difference, you need to aim a heck of a lot higher than us lot.

Yuffie, have you ever actually thought about going into politics?  You're still young enough to get your foot in the door, and you're both intelligent and likeable enough to stand a pretty fair chance in a council/local election.  You seem to care about the issues, and it'd be a shame to waste that sort of passion.  (Saying that, I'm obviously unaware of any possible restrictions you might face, due to nationality).  My point is, you could probably make a difference on a much larger scale than you've thought of, but only IF you're willing to put the effort in.

*(Also, for the record, I'll admit that I didn't realise the voting was happening until the day after.  My fault entirely, partly due to apathy, but also due to my disbelief in the whole system in general.  If I had a chance right now to cast my vote, even by clicking one button online, I wouldn't).


From the BBC site:

A tourist who was caught up in the melee was treated in an ambulance, after suffering an injured leg.

Not only is a pretty small demonstration (dozens of protesters, huge turn-out there), who have the ever-so original idea of throwing eggs, they can't even coordinate themselves as to not hurt passer-bys?  To me they've just managed to make themselves look like amateurish, adolenscent pranksters rather than a proper protest.  I wouldn't be surprised if the placards they were carrying had spelling mistakes.  'No to BPN!' or 'Racesm is BAD'.  I hate to say it, but on this particular occassion, they're the dicks and the BNP are the sensible ones.  If you're going to campaign against something, a modicum of thought and dignity should be present.

[Meowster]

I'm not saying having the discussion's pointless, as it MIGHT make someone rethink their opinion.  I don't want you having any allusions that this thread might make the world a better place, though.  

No, and I'm not saying or hoping it will, that is not my goal here (though if it makes a couple of non-voters feel ashamed then that is excellent ), but I still want to discuss it with people whether or not it "makes a difference". It makes for an interesting discussion and also I think that though one thread will obviously not make a noticeable difference, in general the more things like this are discussed by people, the better. An awful lot of UKers really don't care about politics enough to vote, maybe heated discussions and debates can over time, spark a little bit more interest in it for people. It can only be a good thing to get people talking about things like this.

I disagree strongly with Nacho saying that it's a childish tantrum or anything similar to bring this topic to an internet forum... forums are here for discussions and this is as good a discussion as any other. Intelligent heated discussion over political issues, Nacho, is not pointless or equivelent to throwing a childish tantrum no matter whether it makes a difference or not. It certainly makes a difference for me to see others viewpoints and opinions.

As for getting into politics - haha, thanks, but although I get quite passionate about things etc., I'm not the kind of personality that would do well in politics. Additionally, most details of politics bore me greatly, except the part where I get everything on expenses of course.

The details of the protest are a little sad. I'm glad that people did protest, but it seems these things always get out of hand due to a few idiots. In Brighton recently there were some protests against an arms manufacturer, and although most people were peaceful and really cared about what they were protesting, I met a few people who really were just there for the mayhem. I was trying to figure out what the protest was about by asking people, and one chap replied "I dunno, I came down here from Cambridge 'cos I just love the mayhem to be honest!". He also told me stories about how he'd kicked in a police car and tried to break the window of a McDonalds just for fun... what an ass. It's unfortunate that most protests seem to get lumped with chaps like that

[Nacho]

Actually my point is that my point is that taking a shit about politics before people vote and complaining after the election is done is a childish tantrum... I was not directly accussing you of that because I have no way of knowing how involved you are in politics, but I know there are a lot of people who like to have this "anti-system spirit", not getting involved in politics or even not voting, living happy and proud of "not giving a shit about that useless social conventionalisms like voting"...

And when people votes and people says something they don't like, they complain.

Undemocratic and childish, imo.

Being interested before and after the elections is ok.
Not being interested before and after the elections is ok.
Not being interested before and getting interested after the elections is childish, undemocratic and hypocrital.

[Layabout]

Actually my point is that my point is that taking a shit about politics before people vote and complaining after the election is done is a childish tantrum... I was not directly accussing you of that because I have no way of knowing how involved you are in politics, but I know there are a lot of people who like to have this "anti-system spirit", not getting involved in politics or even not voting, living happy and proud of "not giving a shit about that useless social conventionalisms like voting"...

And when people votes and people says something they don't like, they complain.

Undemocratic and childish, imo.

Being interested before and after the elections is ok.
Not being interested before and after the elections is ok.
Not being interested before and getting interested after the elections is childish, undemocratic and hypocrital.

I don't really think it's 'childish' to express their opinions on the state of political affairs of a country in an internet forum. To use an analogy, it would be much the same as going into a pub or around the office watercooler (do people do that?) and someone pipes up with 'Hey, what is happening with this country! 900k people voted for the BNP in the Euro elections. That's fucked up!'. Everyone in the surrounding area who perhaps would like to talk about this event all add their input to the discussion. Unfortunatly, there is always one guy who likes to disagree because he can, resorting to name calling and general tomfoolery.

It's called human interaction. We all like to do it. We all like to talk about issues that effect us, issues that don't etc.

And to what you say Nacho, about people voting and then complaining about the current powerholders of Government, I totally disagree with you there. Voting for your selected party with them failing to win in your constituancy/ the whole shebang gives you the right to be upset with the current political situation. NOT voting at all gives you no right to complain about politics, even though so many do.

[Nacho]

Reply to paragraph 2)

Hey, that' s what I said! Voting gives you power to complain, because you PARTICIPATED in the political live... Of course, taking that complains too far away would enter into the terrain of antimocracy, but sensible complains are Ok.

Not voting at all gives you no right to complain.

Reply to paragraph 1) I think that if you do something with no right to do it (Complaining about politics if you had not voted) you are being childish. You don't agree? Okay, no probs!

[Layabout]

Yeah! That's what I said! Sorry Nacho, from your post it looks like you were saying the opposite! No worries.

[Hudders]

I like the juxtaposition between how Nick Griffin reacted to having eggs thrown at him and how John Prescott reacted. 

[Nacho]

On the other way, Mr. Layabout, while I agree that "if you participated in the democracy game" you do have the right to complain about the results if your party does not win, pushing that right too far might make you fall into an antidemocratic terrain.

People must respect what majority says, at least in a certain degree...

[Meowster]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/audio/2009/jun/09/bnp-barnsley-european-election

Some of the people in this audio clip make me feel so sad.

More interesting reading: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23470426-details/Women+more+troubled+by+bag+theft+than+rape,+BNP+candidate+claims/article.do

And finally, they're actually breaking discrimination laws with their membership criteria which states only white people are allowed to join... http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/jun/08/bnp-legal-challenges

[m0ds]

I'm not a supporter, but the BNP have some fairly decent issues to raise that other Governments won't. I don't like their racism or even most of their views towards race, but hey, as a Brit, and someone who knows Brits of all ages - there are definitely a lot of concerns amongst the Brits that only the BNP seem to be willing to tackle. I'm no fan of foreigners who can't speak the English language having jobs where they have to deal with customers, and I'm not a huge fan of the Polish taking a lot of our jobs. I didn't vote the other day, I forgot - but I would've voted Conservative. The fact Cameron is a local man is one reason, but just to see a change in Government would be great, and the Tories are the most likely party to obtain that. Although people say all parties should collaborate, I don't, I just reckon each party should have a maximum of 1 year in power, after which, it's all change. This way the ball keeps rolling, never gets stuck & the public can look at fresh policies and old ones with more confidence each year, rather than every 3, or 13 - as G. Brown might have it.