The BNP

[Matti]

Hm, am I the only one unconditionally supporting every kind of immigration regardless of "the usefulness" of the migrating people?

Of course there are talented/educated/skilled people who don't have a chance to use their knowledge and skills in their home country, and yes, they are an enrichement for their new country.

But especially those who aren't skilled and don't have the possibility to get education or work in their home country are in need of emigrating and they do have the right to do so imo.

I will never cotton up to the fact that a government decides about what people can live in "their country" (an artificial entity, an area without natural borders but borders that were often set by war profiteers). Every human has to right to travel the world and to settle down where he or she wants to!

And where the heck lies the difference between a lazy german who doesn't work and gets all social and health benefits and a migrant who comes to the country and does the very same? The luck of the german to be born in Germany? That's a rather vicious, egoistic reason.

Opposing immigration is - at every time - only a cheap but far ranging attempt of the government to disguise the real reasons for the wealth gap and other social problems. It's an excuse for their own shitty politics. If they're continiously cutting down expenses for the poor/unemployed while continiously giving investors and employers tax shelters - then there's no question why the social situation is bad, but is has nothing to do with immigrants, may they be useful* or not.

*Oh, what an inhumane term to describe a human being, but it's strongly anchored in peoples' minds I'm afraid.

[BOYD1981]

A migrant worker is the greatest economic event that can happen to a country. It brings in new wealth, new ideas and new people.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that statement, often these migrant workers do not keep their money in british bank accounts which does not help the economy, they also qualify for benefit which is paid with tax payer money, which again does not help the economy.
And not all these new people are nice honest caring people, some of them are violent criminals and I very much doubt that criminal record checks are done before they're allowed to enter the country either.
To be honest with you I don't blame the migrant workers for flocking here for work, I blame the government for allowing it to get so out of hand to the point where they do not accurately know just how many immigrants there are in this country.

[RickJ]

Who would I rather have in my country. A man who has traveled half way across Europe, learned a foreign language to survive here and has the drive to want to better their life...

You are assuming that such a people desire to adopt your values, culture, and way of life.  You would perhaps not be so eager to welcome large numbers of people into your country who desire to impose their values, culture, and way of life on the residents of your country.

[Matti]

You are assuming that such a people desire to adopt your values, culture, and way of life.  You would perhaps not be so eager to welcome large numbers of people into your country who desire to impose their values, culture, and way of life on the residents of your country.

You're implying that everyone living in a country shares the same values, culture and way of life. That's just not true, a country is not that homogene.

If you're referring to very general things, in my experience most of the people from other cultures settle in well. Yes, some don't but that's the same thing with natives...

[RickJ]

You're implying that everyone living in a country shares the same values, culture and way of life. That's just not true, a country is not that homogene.

I disagree.  While it is true that in any given country/culture there will be a variety of opinions/beliefs about  how one should live one's life, how things  ought to be etc, but it's people will have more in common with each other than they will with people of some other country/culture.     

If you're referring to very general things, in my experience most of the people from other cultures settle in well. Yes, some don't but that's the same thing with natives...

Well I had the spread of Sharia law throughout Europe in mind.   

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2009/05/germany-islamic-groups-want-sharia-law.html       
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535478/Sharia-law-is-spreading-as-authority-wanes.html
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4749183.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/feb/08/uk.religion

[Nacho]

But we do really want inmigrants to settle? When I ask to some people about their opinions about little girls wearing Chaddor no matter if they want or not, the answer I use to receive is something like: "It' s their culture! A millenarian one! Who are you to judge them? Who are you to assume that our costumes are better than theirs? Respect them!!!"

So... Do we want integrated inmigrants or not? Because some arguments here are quite contradictory...

Some people here claim that inmigrants settle well...

When that very people is prooved that they do not they answer "No problem... They have their right of not settle, if they don' t want!".

I don' t understand...

[Renal Shutdown]

I remember my half-Spanish friend mentioning the Muslims in one of the cities in Spain a few years back.  They came in, en masse, and pretty much sectioned off streets to live on, tramp-style.  A couple of months later, they were demanding a mosque be built for them, and that laws were changed to accomodate their religious beliefs.  I think, in fact I hope, the Spanish officials told them were to shove it.

They and the other Sharia law types left countries behind, why do they suddenly think they can change the laws of wherever they decide to live?  Are the laws and cultures of their new homes not good enough for them?  If not, why did they bother going there?

If I was homeless, and someone gave me a bed for the night, I wouldn't then demand they change the wallpaper.  I don't see what right these types of immigrants think they have.  If you emigrate to another country, it's only right to accept their customs, and live by their laws, and not try to make it into a copy of the country you left behind.  If they feel that strongly about their cultures, maybe their time would be better spent improving their own country, not just for them, but for future generations, too.

Maybe moving to a new place is actually the easy way out, and they're laziest of their folk.  That doesn't say much for the natives that won't work, though.

[Nacho]

Maybe the spanish case is a bit extreme, because our government is mainly supported by PSOE, which has a long history of alliance with islamism (No matter if moderate of not) anti-christianism and anti-semitism.

So, yes, Islam here basically has letter of Marque.

[Hudders]

A migrant worker is the greatest economic event that can happen to a country. It brings in new wealth, new ideas and new people.

I'd have to strongly disagree with that statement, often these migrant workers do not keep their money in british bank accounts which does not help the economy, they also qualify for benefit which is paid with tax payer money, which again does not help the economy.
And not all these new people are nice honest caring people, some of them are violent criminals and I very much doubt that criminal record checks are done before they're allowed to enter the country either.
To be honest with you I don't blame the migrant workers for flocking here for work, I blame the government for allowing it to get so out of hand to the point where they do not accurately know just how many immigrants there are in this country.

There are plenty of British people with those exact traits. But yet you single out immigrants?

Equally, there are plenty of immigrants that don't conform to this stereotype. Plenty of tax revenue coming from immigrants also.

[Matti]

But we do really want inmigrants to settle? When I ask to some people about their opinions about little girls wearing Chaddor no matter if they want or not, the answer I use to receive is something like: "It' s their culture! A millenarian one! Who are you to judge them? Who are you to assume that our costumes are better than theirs? Respect them!!!"

If the girls are forced to wear the chaddor then I'm all against them wearing it, naturally. If they do really want to wear it because it's part of their religion or culture, then there's no problem. But both has little to do with them living in another country.

So... Do we want integrated inmigrants or not? Because some arguments here are quite contradictory...

Hm, integrated to a certain point. Of course there's the problem of parallel societies where immigrants live only with themselves. One must show them how fortunate it is to learn the mother language of the country they're in for example and that's why I think it's very productive to give them free courses and stuff, the things you talked about, Nacho, regarding the treatment of immigrants/refugees in Spain.

Some people here claim that inmigrants settle well...

When that very people is prooved that they do not they answer "No problem... They have their right of not settle, if they don' t want!".

Yep, exactly that. For the following reasons:

1. They Do have the right to live wherever they want. I know, most people will disagree, but I dispute governments to decide who can live in the country and who doesn't.. like I mentioned before. To quote The Doors: "Into this house we're born, into this world we're thrown." Nobody is able to decide where he's born and what country he starts to live in. So he should be able to decide where he wants to live, may it be Argentinia or North Corea.

2. Some "native" citizens behave as bad as "not-integrated" immigrants. What should we do with them? Throw them out of the country? How can we dare to privilege the people who were born in a country and don't let other people in. How can we prefer the ones to the others?

If you're referring to very general things, in my experience most of the people from other cultures settle in well. Yes, some don't but that's the same thing with natives...

Well I had the spread of Sharia law throughout Europe in mind.   

Yeah, okay. I'm all against changing the law according to muslim beliefs just like I'm all against having law being influenced by religion in general. But I was talking about immigration in general and it includes muslims of course. But they just can't demand changes in law according to their religion.

I have nothing against them building up mosques cause there's no difference to having churches or synagoges. I'm an atheist and don't care much about religion as long as it's a people's "hobby", I mean, as long as it stays out of courts, schools and any official institutions.

[Meowster]

Maybe not in Brighton, but there area where my parents live, it's a different story.  There's van loads of immigrants working on the farms for less than minimum wage.  That £8 an hour for picking strawberries is overpaid, and I'd have personally gone for it in an instant.  They're picking cabbages in Lincolnshire for a quarter of that.

Currently, I'm unemployed.  I'm not pleased about it, and I spend most of my time trying to get a job.  Due to past issues, I'm not exactly a great candidate.  I got ill during my A-Levels which meant I couldn't work for 5 or so years*, and then stuck the same cack job for about 5 years, then had nervous breakdown and went into hiding for 2 years.

So now, I'm pushing 30, have almost no experience, and only GCSEs as qualifications.  I don't personally care what the job is, I did one that was over-worked, under-paid and labour intensive for years, and I was the only one who'd be willing to do 18 hour shifts, despite not getting proper overtime wages.  I busted my ass for that company doing 4 peoples work because they couldn't afford more staff, and I got crapped on when the management changed.  So crap jobs don't bother me.

I've applied to cleaning jobs, I've applied to laboring ones, I've applied for pretty much anything that I'd stand a vague chance of getting.  Just because some of the losers on the dole don't want to work a shitty job, doesn't mean that no British person does.  I can't blame the immigrants as readily as some areas, as there's just not as many of them up here in the North East.  There is a 2 bedroom house on my street with 9 foreigners (Poles and Turks, I think) living in, and they're all working though.  I think one of those foreigners is a drug dealer, or so I'm told.

Back in London, though, the crappy section of jobs were mostly either chavs or immigrants, and the chavs didn't work very hard, whilst most of the immigrants would actually try to work hard.  The immigrants I worked with had the problem of not being too great with English, so they'd end up screwing up tasks, and making me redo their work again.  The chavs just did stuff slow, so I'd have to finish their tasks for them.  Either way, it meant more work for me.  By the time I left that job, it was me and two other non-chavvy Brits doing a 12 person shift, whilst 4 other people dicked about and made things harder.  (Even if they bothered working, we were still under-staffed).

I think I may have lost my train of thought here.  I've just got home from signing on again, so I'm rather pissed off.  Apologies for coherence issues.

*(The government said I couldn't work, I couldn't even sign on.  Was on Incapacity Benefit for years, because the doctor's were still running tests, and couldn't bump it to a Disablity Benefit.  Which meant I had to get a new doctor's note each month, which was probably more degrading to me than signing on).

the £8 an hour was just a point to prove that this particular group of people claiming they couldn't get jobs because of foreigners were actually just lazy and wouldn't accept something that was even quite substantially above minimum wage. There are of course loads of people (particularly recently) who are struggling to find work due to the recession... but there still exists a huge portion of english people who mistreat the benefits system and then jump on the "they're tekkin' our jobs!!!" bandwagon which they really don't  understand anyway.

It sounds like it can be very different in different parts of the UK. I'm sorry you saw something kicking off in Brighton... I was once with a German friend when someone started on him for having a foreign accent. Unfortunately there are assholes everywhere, but at least in Brighton they are far and few between and we usually laugh them off the streets pretty quickly


Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFG2P-toC6k

They took errr jerbs!

[Renal Shutdown]

Of course there's the problem of parallel societies where immigrants live only with themselves.

They'll naturally head this way, though.  You get concentrated areas of one type of immigrant, it's been happening for years.  The various Chinatowns, for example.  You can't expect people to distribute themselves evenly across the land, they'll generally go to where they fit in faster, and they'll stay there.  Even in London, which is multi-cultural, there's areas that are more specific to a certain background.  Southall for Sikhs, I think, Brixton is mostly black, Edgware Road for Middle Easterns, Chinatown for the Chinese, the racists are mostly East London, especially heading towards Essex.

But, those communities will continue to seperate, and they'll want to get their way.  I completely missed the whole British Sharia thing that RickJ linked, as I was netless/TVless at the time, and it wasn't heavily publicised.  Personally, I'm disgusted by it.  British laws aren't good enough for them?  Emigrate, then.  Don't impose another country's customs onto a place you're technically a guest in.  For the people born here who want the same laws, you're free to leave to find somewhere better.  Just because you want a law change, doesn't mean that the rest of a nation does.

Sharia law is also sexiest, so by accepting it, we're slowly undoing all the rights women fought for years for.  And where does it end?  The clothes Muslim women wear might be optional now, but what if in the future it becomes imposed for those women?  What if they then start demanding that all women dress that way?  If we cave into some of their demands, where do we draw the line?  When we eventually draw a line, they'll just claim it's religious persecution, and we'll side with politcal correctness.

They're also moving towards smaller criminal cases.  So, sure an small Muslim vs. Muslim is settled out of court, within the community.  Who decides how much authority they have?  If it was a Muslim vs. Muslim murder trial, would we eventually let them run that too?  How long before they equal or higher than the proper courts?

Now that Sharia law has it's foot in the door, and some Somali community also had the same sort of thing (from the above links), where it was based on their culture, not religion, how long before every immigrant community demands that they police themselves?  What if a certain community believes in the death penalty?  Who decides which community should be in charge, in a case that covered two law types? (eg. The Muslims vs. the Somalis).  Sure, these sorts of questions might be unlikely, worst case scenarios now, but that doesn't rule them out as possible events in the future.

Immigration is such a grey area, and there needs to be some sort of long term planning and debating encompassing everything it affects.  I'm not saying close the borders, I'm not saying take no one in.  I'm saying that it affects so much, most people think in the here and now, and don't look far enough into the future.  It's all well and good basing it on whether they have a right to live wherever they want, but think how that might affect future generations.

I'm an atheist and don't care much about religion as long as it's a people's "hobby", I mean, as long as it stays out of courts, schools and any official institutions.

In Britain, Christianity is already in courts, schools and official institutions.  It has been for centuries.  Religion will always be a large part of society, and taking on immigrants often makes groups of seperate societies, which I can only see as a bad thing.  That's not integration, that's just well hidden, long-term segregation.

[Nacho]

I sorta understand ghettos, and I don't think inmigrants are 100% guilty of that... I think they are forced to live there, somehow.

Honestly, I don' t think nobody (Pro-"everybody is welcome, no matter if they deserve it or not" or the pro-"nobody's welcome, no matter if they deserve to be welcomed or not") has the complete truth in this discussion but what really annoys me is that the "everybody' s welcome"'s  posture is so popular that they are not able to hear the other side, or consider that they are not 100% right.

[Meowster]

Does anyone remember the story about the woman who was refused the Morning After pill because the muslim chemist chappy was within his rights to refuse to give it to her on religious grounds? That was appalling and afaik it is still perfectly within their right to do so. I think that kind of softy approach (such as adopting aspects of sharia law that clearly have the capacity to put women in this country at risk) is pretty bad. I would find it hard not to be resentful of this if I was refused the morning after pill in order to protect the religious rights of the chemist - what about my rights as a woman? Why do his religious rights get preference over my rights?

Renal, I read about Sharia law a long time ago when it was introduced so I forget the finer details, but I do remember seeing aspects of it that really shocked me, because essentially it creates an opportunity for women under sharia law to be treated differently and have different (and lesser) rights than other UK women. I also remember reading that the reason is got in in the first place was because there is already a Jewish version of it that was developed decades ago - is that right? Something like this? I'm not sure of the details of Jewish courts but I am pretty sure they exist, hence they could not refuse the request for Sharia Law. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong because obviously I'm sketchy with the details as I'm old now (my second wisdom tooth emerged yesterday), and my memory fails me frequently in my old and wise age.

[Matti]

Honestly, I don' t think nobody (Pro-"everybody is welcome, no matter if they deserve it or not" or the pro-"nobody's welcome, no matter if they deserve to be welcomed or not") has the complete truth in this discussion but what really annoys me is that the "everybody' s welcome"'s  posture is so popular that they are not able to hear the other side, or consider that they are not 100% right.

1. I think I'm the only "pro-everyone" guy here (yet). And I don't think my opinion is quite popular.

2. Don't infer that I'm "not able" to hear the other side. I certainly do!

3. There's no such thing as truth about that topic, it's a matter of opinion and one's view on mankind and the world, definitely a very general thing.

I don't know what to do with your term "deserve". The people who are born in a certain country "deserve" to live there and others don't, is that what you mean? That's a view I can't get used to.

[Nacho]

Honestly, Matti, I haven't read this thread deeply... I was not aiming to anyone in particular, so, don' t get "offended". Anyway, my thoughts were not directed to you when I was thinking in the "welcome everyone" group, or to anyone in the forums in particual, but to some people I met during my real life.

Said that...

My idea is that people has the right to be welcomed in a country when their want to get integrated, when they learn the lenguaje asap, follow the laws of the hosting country and do not want to impose outer costumes. Keeping their costumes sounds perfect to me, I actually think it' s nice to see "arabian week" or "Latin friday" in my city, because I have the right to go there or not (I usually pop up there to take a look)... When they FORCE me to be "arabic", "latin", "asian" or whatever you can imagine I don't like it that much.

[Matti]

Honestly, Matti, I haven't read this thread deeply... I was not aiming to anyone in particular, so, don' t get "offended". Anyway, my thoughts were not directed to you when I was thinking in the "welcome everyone" group, or to anyone in the forums in particual, but to some people I met during my real life.

No offense taken  . It just seemed you were referring to me.

My idea is that people has the right to be welcomed in a country when their want to get integrated, when they learn the lenguaje asap, follow the laws of the hosting country and do not want to impose outer costumes. Keeping their costumes sounds perfect to me, I actually think it' s nice to see "arabian week" or "Latin friday" in my city, because I have the right to go there or not (I usually pop up there to take a look)... When they FORCE me to be "arabic", "latin", "asian" or whatever you can imagine I don't like it that much.

Yeah, I agree in general. It's just that I can't stand it if people say, the immigrants have to be productive, educated.. well, "useful" to be welcomed in a country. That's not why they migrate, they (most) migrate to flee from starvation, persecution, dictatorships etc. and they all have the right and a damn good reason to do so. Not letting them into the country cause they're no enrichement for the economy is just.. well, perverse.

[Nacho]

Well, the cases I know is (inmigration) because they want to be richer. And as they are used to live with less, they can send some money to their families in their original country, which is a currency hemorragy... It' s something there' s no way to fight (in a democratic way) but it' s still a problem...

Also, I am not a monster... I would like everyone to be here, to work here, and if they get uneployed, to use our social services... But those services are not unlimited, and in crisis period, when those savings are jeopardised I *don't* see the problem in being those uneployed inmigrants to be the first ones to lose those social cares.

If someone can explain me where is the problem in my thinking, please, tell to me... Because one thing is being "good person"... the other is kill everybody in the boat for not having the guts to release some extra weight. (Yes, sounds horrible... but crisis periods are horrible).

[Stee]

I agree with Nacho.

Also

Yeah, I agree in general. It's just that I can't stand it if people say, the immigrants have to be productive, educated.. well, "useful" to be welcomed in a country. That's not why they migrate, they (most) migrate to flee from starvation, persecution, dictatorships etc. and they all have the right and a damn good reason to do so. Not letting them into the country cause they're no enrichement for the economy is just.. well, perverse.

They're are called Asylum Seekers. Whilst all asylum seekers are immigrants, not all immigrants are asylum seekers.

Just thought I'd point that out. And I am almost certain that "most" immigrants are not asylum seekers.

So...

"most" do not migrate to flee from starvation,persecution, dictatorships etc.

Reason's I believe most migrate:

Education: We arguably have one of the best education systems in the world (although, im starting to think otherwise with all these chavs growing in number). I don't know about other areas other than bristol where i study (i migrated from north to south  ), you go to the university and see how many foreign students there are compared to english ones. Thats even with the international fee's set at £15000/year (roughly 5 times the price of a national/european student). Once you are in the country 5 years you can claim nationality. Expensive route, but easiest.

Work: We have so many people moaning about the fact that there are no jobs (which normally translates to no jobs they are willing to do), that we have a nice foreign source coming into the country willing to take these shitty jobs that mr chav doesn't want to get off his benefits for, called the poles (and many other eastern countries). Eventually companies decide that they can exploit this market by offering foreign workers the jobs at smaller pay (lower than national minimum). We get more over here because this lower wage for foreigners is still higher than what they earn in their own country, so they save it up and send it home so their families can live like kings. Of course we get refused these jobs and the economy declines. In short the problem stems from the chav at the start of the paragraph.

Benefits: Some come in under the pretense that they are Asylum seekers (im not denying that there are a lot of genuine ones), in order to reap the benefits of the.... Benefit system. Chavs get pissed off because there are now other people scrounging off the taxpayer as well as them, which "affects their benefits". Benefits should be there for the people that need them, not for some inbred to misuse them. Im not against people taking benefits, as long as it is a genuine need, and lets face it so many people either abuse it, or intentionally put themselves into the situation where they need it (another form of abuse?).


Asylum: Of course they are a very select minority that come here seeking asylum. Funny thing is we are taking in so many, and then we got arrogant little cunts like the U.S Government who refuse to take so many. Problem is that its that Government putting us into so many wars (lets face it the uk is a bitch) and then leaving us to clean up your mess (taking in the asylum seekers). I mean its America's war, so they should take the responsibility for the causes of it (nb: I know not all asylums are iraqi's, afghani's etc, but theres no denying an increase since noses were poked into the east).

Regardless of which, the day the BNP gets voted in, is the day I leave the country (my country), and I hope their leader shares the same fate as Hitler (one testicle and a bullet in the head).

What's it like in the US anyway, jobwise? I might use my magical Visa Waiver program to "immigrate" and get a job.

[Matti]

Okay, I'm too fuckin drunk right now, but I'll answer soon.