The P3N1S award????????????

Started by Nikolas, Mon 29/01/2007 21:28:38

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Snarky

Quote from: Ishmael on Thu 08/02/2007 15:55:30
This works in reverse, too. Why would a game with a very uncomfortable GUI get the best scripting award? Why would a game with simple graphics get the best graphics award?

Why not? An uncomfortable GUI is a design problem, not a scripting problem, and simple graphics are often the best.

QuoteBecause it's made by a cult type of person or team. People go "OMG <person>'s game! I vote it for everything!", happend in may awards in a row.

This may have been a problem in the beginning, but I don't think it has been lately. You don't see many games being nominated in tons of categories that they don't deserve.

AGD2

QuoteNo. If so many people have told you this then maybe it's time you considered the possibility and stop being arrogant/dillusional, cause people claiming they are amazing and ain't gets into these kinda trouble when they produce something.

I wasn't talking about being perceived as arrogant. I was talking about different people complaining about various technical aspects of the games we've released to date (KQ remakes included). For example, some people disliked the plot changes in KQ2VGA+ and the fact that collaged backgrounds were used. Conversely, despite complaints, most of Al Emmo's reviews have still given it an above-average rating, and the game is selling fairly steadily outside of the core adventure gaming communties with little to no backlash. This can be put down to different strokes for different folks.

Listening to criticisms doesn't necessarily mean listening to everything thrown at you. It means weeding out the genuinely constructive stuff from the bullshit and using that valuable feedback to finetune things. This is why it somewhat surpised me that the lipsynching, diaogue pics were pretty much overlooked in Al Emmo, when those improvements were a direct result of negative feedback that we tried to improve upon from KQ2VGA+.

QuoteYou don't like that you're game was received badly by some people? Too bad, accept it and move on. You can't change their mind by posting about it on a forum, they played the game and they didn't like it. The only way to change their mind is to make another game and hope they like it.

Yes, and all of those criticisms were noted the first time around when they were mentioned many, many months ago. It just gets a little old when every single thread on the AGS forums seems to re-hash the same old points. We've heard all the criticisms already - points taken. We're looking into them. But repeatedly smacking others over the head in every single discussion with the same arguments is like flogging a dead horse.

loominous

QuoteWho gives a shit what someone's tag line is on their pretend interenet company? Are we so desperate for drama in our lives that we have to make mountains out of mole hills?

Not sure if you're referring to some previous discussion, but it doesn't bother me further than meeting someone who greets people with: "Hello, my name is X and I'm the best".

Unless your irony detector picks something up, you just think: "Ok, what kind of weirdo is this". Then your life goes on.

The problem is when this person produce something you enjoy. You can't help but to feel ambivalent towards them, when both you and they would benefit from an untainted appreciation.

From the extensive survey in this thread, americans seem less affected by this kind of bold claims, so this might be a regional problem, and something they might want to consider, even if it seems silly to them. It's like avoiding a company name that's offensive in the language of the main market countries, even though it's perfectly harmless in your own.
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MrColossal

Quote from: AGD2 on Thu 08/02/2007 20:41:32
Yes, and all of those criticisms were noted the first time around when they were mentioned many, many months ago. It just gets a little old when every single thread on the AGS forums seems to re-hash the same old points. We've heard all the criticisms already - points taken. We're looking into them. But repeatedly smacking others over the head in every single discussion with the same arguments is like flogging a dead horse.

And you're not going to stop people posting things on the internet by telling them to give it up. It's one of the hardest things in the world to do with something you've created but you have to let it go. For me, sadly, only time helps me get over things like this.

Besides, these awards take the entire year of games into account. The complaints about Al Emmo aren't being dragged up from the depths just for fun, people are looking back at their year of AGS gaming and remembering.
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

SSH

Quote from: AGD2 on Thu 08/02/2007 20:41:32
It just gets a little old when every single thread on the AGS forums seems to re-hash the same old points.
Every thread? You see, its those delusions of grandeur than just rile people...
12

AGD2

QuoteAnd you're not going to stop people posting things on the internet by telling them to give it up

And where exactly did I tell anyone to give it up?

QuoteEvery thread? You see, its those delusions of grandeur than just rile people...

There's two threads about Al Emmo, both are filled with the same stuff. So yes, every thread.


LimpingFish

I can't honestly believe that Himalaya looked at the overall, finished Al Emmo and thought to themselves "This is a winner."

They saw a game that was the typical quality of adventure that sells purely on the basis that it is an adventure game.

Al Emmo is no worse than eighty percent of commercial adventures doing the rounds, and the only reason we care is that it was made using AGS.

Personally I have nothing against these people, but the furore surrounding Al Emmo is not how a team that wants to be taken seriously (and more importantly, build a fanbase) does business or behaves in a professional arena.

The whole thing, company included, smacks of a vanity project; from this Mobygames profile, to the website, to the voice thing, to the response to any negative feedback the game procured.

You're not rockstars, you're not the reanimator of a corpse genre that's commercially dead for a reason; and lets face it the commercial adventure is dead because it couldn't adapt to a changing market, and those games that did were shunned by a core community that, like it or not, had/has an almost anal perspective in what it likes and dislikes in an adventure game.

The position of adventures today is perfect for small e-distribution studios, such a Wadjet Eye, to carve out a small niche in a market that has more or less discarded the genre.

But bad games are bad games.

Taking an agressive stance because, deserved or not, your game received negative feedback isn't the greatest of business strategies.

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Helm

Quote from: AGD2 on Thu 08/02/2007 22:54:33
QuoteEvery thread? You see, its those delusions of grandeur than just rile people...

There's two threads about Al Emmo, both are filled with the same stuff. So yes, every thread.

Saying 'every single thread on the AGS forums' and meaning apparently 'every single thread on the AGS forums about our game, namely, two of them' surely provides some insight on how you think about this issue, this community and so in.
WINTERKILL

AGD2

If you want to draw straws, then sure, you'll find lots of stuff you can use to twist around in an attempt to turn public opinion against any given team to make them look vain or arrogant. If people like to spend their time reading through the fine print on websites to say "Ha! look what dirt I found on these guys!" well, good for them.  I'm not complaining about constructive criticism of the game. I'm complaining about the mob mentality and the ridiculous conclusions that people draw.

That said, this will be my last post on the subject, because it's just going around in circles, and I've already said all I wanted to say. So ciao!

LimpingFish

Quote from: AGD2 on Thu 08/02/2007 23:22:49
If people like to spend their time reading through the fine print on websites to say "Ha! look what dirt I found on these guys!" well, good for them.

To be honest, I didn't have to look very hard.

And I don't even have a vested interest in misrepresenting Himalaya. Imagine if somebody did...
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edmundito

And this is why there's a group of people that don't take the AGS Awards this seriously. After all, there is an award called the P3N1S award as one of the categories. Not to mention the people who don't play all the games and still nominate/vote...

It's just an award!... for fun! Like the MTV awards...

Dave Gilbert

I would never presume to know what the Himilayan crew thinks, nor preach to them about how to run their business.  They do have a fanbase.  Their game, from what I can see, is a commercial success. 

Whatever they are doing, they are obviously doing it right.   They obviously care about the genre or they wouldn't be putting all their time and money into these games in the first place.

I am honestly shocked and disappointed at the reaction of this community towards Himilaya.  Criticise the game, certainly, but don't criticise them. 

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

Well, Dave, most of this argument stems from two things, really.

1 - The P3N15 award has as a candidate a very questionable nominee. This has been settled already, really, many times over - it was the opinion of 3 people in the whole community. In fact, I don't find it serious at all, I find it hilarious how a game like Al Emmo can be nominated for that award, it goes to show that unexpected things can happen.

2 - One of the creators of Al Emmo has told the community to stick the prize up its collective arse, after making several points in a generalistic manner when  - and now that the matter has evolved I can say it, I couldn't say it now in case I was wrong - it was clear that he wasn't being generalistic at all, he was using the experience of his own nomination (and what a tragedy it was, too! :P) to call down the whole voting system... two lines of behaviour which I don't really approve of.

The game has been criticised to death where it has to be criticised, and has been praised where it needs to be praised. This nominnation was a fluke, a bit of a laugh, and if AGD2 hadn't replied as he has, I'd very much doubt Al Emmo would actually win the award. As it is, I reckon the chances are higher... but it's still a long shot, and everyone knows it, for crying out loud.

Am I saying AGD2 is wrong for being so mindful of his creation, for being ticked off when it gets nominated for a very bad award? Hell no. But telling the community to stick it up its collective arse, smiley or no smiley, is hardly the best way to respond.

I wish Erpy were here. I like his posts far better.
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LimpingFish

#73
Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Thu 08/02/2007 23:43:40
They obviously care about the genre or they wouldn't be putting all their time and money into these games in the first place.

So what? They deserve free money for that? For a product that at it's core, is no better than many games people make for free.

I see a company that made a sub-standard game, genre notwithstanding, charged for it, and expected the adventure community to buy it on that age old perception (which is, unfortunately, partialy true) that adventure gamers buy adventure games regardless of quality. Which is fair enough. Business is business.

But if I buy a game made by EA, and then say it's crap, I don't expect to hear from an EA representitive accusing me of having a vendetta against the company.

Non-professional behaviour, regardless of a companies stature, in response to a small percentage, if indeed it was a commercial success, of dissatisfied users, isn't the done thing. Not by them, not by Nintendo, EA, etc.

If it was, TellTale would have me on speed-dial.

Caring about the genre has little to do with their position, or any negativity caused. Some people liked the game, some people didn't. Some people hated the voice tracks, some people hated the main characters. Some people loved the whole thing.

Where is the need to cry foul on any of this?

Nobody deserves support based on the fact that they seem to support a genre I enjoy. I see no need to rally around them, and buy their product because they chose the adventure genre.

Going commercial is a whole different ballgame, and I applaud anybody who has the cajonies to do so. But complaining when people aren't as receptive as they were towards any free games is just foolish.

EDIT: It's the cynical nature of the game which grates. It has all the ingredients from past successes (the LSL-style main character, the narrator, the breaking of the fourth wall, etc.) but none of the soul. It's just...product.

EDIT: My avatar speaks the truth. The commercial adventure game has left me a shell of a point-and-clicker. ;)
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Dave Gilbert

Who said anything about free money?  Nobody is giving them money for nothing.  Nobody is forcing you to buy the game. 

As Rui says, the p3n1s nomination was a fluke.  A one-off.  A by-product of a democratic system that got ruined by a few idiots.  This doesn't concern me.

What does concern me is this incredible bitterness that has erupted from nowhere like a geyser.  A geyser aimed straight at Himilaya.  And why is that?  Because people don't t like the game?  Does that justify this insane flamefest?

If I ever write and sell a game that (heaven forbid!) people don't like, I hope they have the decency to direct their rage toward the game, and not toward me.


MrColossal

I just want to maybe say that Dave, you might be taking the words of say 4 people and calling it a geyser of bitterness.

At least as far as this thread is concerned.

Even so, I wouldn't call this a flame-fest.
"This must be a good time to live in, since Eric bothers to stay here at all"-CJ also: ACHTUNG FRANZ!

Klytos

I think that AGD2 has every right to defend his game from abuse if he sees it as undeserved. It seems to be fine that some people here have the god given right to critique a game and a company yet can't handle that same level of critique being leveled at their comments.

To me, this seems to come down to the fact that people don't like AGDI / Himalaya's attitude. I can understand that and probably agree with that view. But I think that Chris (AGD2) has a couple of good points that are being overlooked because of the attitude of his writing.

I think it's about some people being jealous of others achieving something when they themselves haven't been able to do anything that would come close to the standard that games like KQ2+ and Al Emmo achieve.

Is the game good? It's okay. As someone else said it's an adventure game of the past, it's nothing new or revolutionary. But to nominate it for this award is mean spirited.

wnsk

1. I think the award in question shouldn't be given if the number of voters does not exceed a minimum threshold. I suggest this formula:

50 % of number of people who voted in Best Game / number of games nominated in the Penis category

So if, say, 60 people voted in the Best Game category and there are 3 games nominated in the Penis category, this would give a Minimum Threshold of 30 / 5 = 10. 

So, the game that gets the most votes in excess of the threshold gets the award; if none of the games exceed 10, then nobody gets the award at all. 

2. I think the name of the award should be changed to something more whimsical, akin to the Raspberry awards. Especially if the award is really supposed to be as light-hearted as some of you claim.

The word, "penis" is just too strong and distasteful, and a negative reflection on BOTH the recipient and the community.   

.......I urge whoever makes the rules (who does, actually? I gather it's not Mr Chris Jones) to take my suggestion into consideration.

Rui 'Trovatore' Pires

1 - That's giving the award waaaaaaaaay more importance than it deserves.

2 - Actually, I'm not sure this isn't a bad idea, and for a very simple reason - it's an in-game joke, as it were. People who were here in Andy Penis' day and played his big adventure will know of it. Lurkers and people who played the really old adventure games and read the older posts will know it. But Andy Penis is a name of the past now, and there's very little connection now. It's like that IRC thread that cropped up - it was suddenly full of people who DIDN't go to #AGS giving their opinion on how things went along there based on a couple of quotes, and it just didn't work because they were totally out of their depth, had no idea what it was like in #AGS.

Similarly, at the time the P3N15 award was a gag, and right now it's a strange artefact.

HOWEVER - changing it at this point might be akin, to the community, to changing the BlueCup into something else, and besides it'll once again give much too importance to the award.
Reach for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.

Kneel. Now.

Never throw chicken at a Leprechaun.

loominous

QuoteIf I ever write and sell a game that (heaven forbid!) people don't like, I hope they have the decency to direct their rage toward the game, and not toward me.

If you start making bold claims on your site, drop by only occasionally with an self dillusional attitude and create new titles of declining quality, then I suspect you might have to deal with similar treatment eventually.

Then again, you've struck me as a nice, humble (as far as entrepreneurs can be) guy, so the above seems unlikely to happen, and even if it did, you'd probably get away with much due to your history.

(My insight into this conflict is limited, so my facts are questionable.

What strikes me as weird is the blindness from, what I can see, americans towards the thing that's annoying, again, from what I can see, to europeans. So I feel inclined to point this out, as there seems to be much unneccessery confusion and irritation.

(And I hope all this isn't taken as another example of america bashing. As the land of entrepreneurs, it would be strange if self promotion wasn't more accepted than in other cultures.))
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