The situation in Greece

[Nikolas]

A small explanation of what's happened.

There came a point a few months ago, that the greek government realised that they wouldn't be able to get a loan from the private sector. So in order to not default the current loans, they turned to the EU, and the IMF. The deal came to pass, with a total of 110 b euros for three years. Problem is that the EU and much more the IMF has 'ordered' the greek goverenment to some severe wage and pension cuts along with other extremely harsh measures.

VAT went from 19% to 23%
Gas went from 1 euro per liter to 1.5 euros per liter
Wages from all public sector workers went down 1/7th.
Pensions the same
and plenty of other issues.

Another main problem is that the rich went almost untouched, as well as those who evade taxation (illegaly of course).

The strike today became a riot and this resulted in 3 (including a pregnant woman) getting killed by anarchists most likely.

Things are awful right now and there isn't any light at the end of the tunnel as we speak. If things calm down I would like to hope that things will get better. But it doesn't really look this way. On the contrary it looks that even the army might get involved, which could be the worst case scenario...

In either case, wish "us" luck!

[Dualnames]

There's no country for the dead men. I just wish this time, we'd stop killing each other, and go destroy the parliament or something.

[Anian]

I/my country can beat that, VAT has been around 22% for about 10 years now, last year it went to 23%. Gas is around 1,2 euros per liter for about a year now. Now there has been a tax class change which basically made the poorest people pay just a little bit less tax, the middle class (broad term though, real middle class is almost gone) and those who have pays about 7x the average pay (which is around 400 euros), they have to pay less tax...somehow.

National depth is in double digits billions for years now. Unemployment is 18.2% which is about 3.2 higher than last year. There are more voters than actual people in the country (cause current goverment gives emmigrants great rights plus it was proven, but not prosecuted, that actual dead people voted in some places) - so there is usually less voters than people, cause there are people under 18 years, but here there's more voters than actual people alive.

There was a war in the begining of the 90ies, from that there's a lot of people who pretend to have been in the army so they have priveleges (taxes, pentions etc.) and the number is around 500 000 people (plus their families). Our country has 4.8 million people, but Yugoslavia before that had 12.5 million people and around 300 000 soldiers and was considered a relativly strong military regime.

Best thing - it doesn't look like things will change, your people are actually getting mad. On the other hand regular football matches end with few people in the hospital, a day or so ago a cop lost his eye an more ended up in the hospital. Kids get beaten almost to a brink of death cause they live in another town that's less than 3 hours away and speak with a different accent, that's become a monthly thing almost.

In any case, wish "everybody" luck!

[Andail]

Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.

The wonders of capitalism.

[Anian]

Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.

The wonders of capitalism.

They basically blackmailed my country into giving a part of our territory to them, to be able to join EU, so they'll get no pitty from me.

[Mr Flibble]

Gasoline for â,¬1.20 would be a dream, it's £1.20 in the UK, ie. â,¬1.40 or so. So I feel your pain in that regard. Also 60% of that price is duty and tax. I love hearing Americans complain about petrol prices when they still pay about half what we do.

Also Nikolas, thank you for this overview. I admit I wasn't really sure what was happening before, the news about it only trickled down as far as Greece getting loans, I didn't know about the cuts in public spending and the riots :/ . I hope things don't get too unpleasant for you.

It does make me wonder why they didn't increase tax for the very rich. Although in the UK if you earn a considerable amount of money, the tax is like 50%, which is just obscene and absolutely unfair as well.

[Tuomas]

We hade a fight over this this morning, but eventually Finland agreed to pay the 1,5 billions that were our share. Which was nice because it stopped our bitching government from worse cutbacks

Also, yeah, gas prices have been up to 1,59 here, though at the moment they're at around 1,39, so don't complain, get a bicycle.

[Nikolas]

Right now there's only one thing that worries me. (RIGHT NOW, cause tomorrow will be tomorrow with more worries). The prime minister has been discussing for hours with the ministry of defense, which for me can mean only two things:
a. They are very good friends and wanted to share a beer or something.
or
b. The prime minister wanted to be ready and prepared for the army to step in at any time needed!

Flibble: They can't touch the very rich, cause they became rich in the first place by evading tax. An example. You get a doctor, with an office at central Athens with around 5,000 euros per month. He's driving an BMW X5/6 or something equally expensive. And this guy is claiming that he made less than 10,000 euros last year! FUCK!  (which is also part of the problem ,cause not only everyone is getting cutbacks, but in addition you don't see the rich getting anything less...)

[passer-by]

I hust hope Greece won't get both the riots and the bankruptcy.
From what I see, there are more political games than the situation can take and there are of course the organisations and individuals inside and ouside Greece who make crazy money because of this and will keep feeding the fire.

It may seem that the Greeks demonstrate once every few days and make riots out of habit, but although it's partly true (political games again and again), there are actually very good reasons for the people to be unhappy and not only in the last six months. The truth is not always what the foreign press conveys to their countries.

That said, fighting the over-the-top and unrealistic (since they never touch the rich and the guilty) measures is one thing, killing people just because they don't want (or can't afford) to go on strike is despicable.

Going on strike is a constitutional right, but making a living and disagreeing with some political parties is also a constitutional right and nobody in a democracy  is allowed to force their opinions on others, let alone to murder them.

[WHAM]

Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.

The wonders of capitalism.

Same goes for Finland, so say the local news here... And the government are arguing about whether or not we should loan any money at all. One of the major newspapers here had a poll about that, about 95% of those who answered (over 150 000 people last I checked) said "no!".

I personally think they got what was coming to 'em! Live large and you have to pay for it eventually. All those olympics 'n such are a real money-leeching-operation.

[passer-by]

I personally think they got what was coming to 'em! Live large and you have to pay for it eventually. All those olympics 'n such are a real money-leeching-operation.

Don't believe everything you read in the international Press
Just because a couple of countries with imminent elections describe it as "living large" for their own internal politics, doesn't mean its true for all those lower and middle-class people that don't live large but are punished as if they did.


PS. The Olympics were the only means of pressure to some companies to finish projects (roads, bridges etc) that have been under construction for ages. It was a good thing, in the big scheme of things.

[Dualnames]

You know what I hate. I hate people dying. You know what I hate more? Is people living like they're dead!
I've had it. I don't care if Greece ends up anarchy. I don't care if it ends up with full hospitals.

What I can't cope with is having my god-damn everyday life!

All there years, we're like, oh, it's okay, things will get better.
Oh, it's okay, things will get better. I'm not saying go kill. I'm saying go do something. And if we're actually gonna go eye for an eye, head for the parliament. Tear down that building, it's only a symbol of Democracy, Freedom, Justice. Where the fuck are those things?

[Tuomas]

Gotta love how Slovenia has to borrow money to afford their share of the EU loan to Greece.

The wonders of capitalism.

Same goes for Finland, so say the local news here... And the government are arguing about whether or not we should loan any money at all. One of the major newspapers here had a poll about that, about 95% of those who answered (over 150 000 people last I checked) said "no!".

I'd like to get a link to this if you please.

Something to be considered: An amount of money of this extent is never found floating free on a states budget anywhere. Germany is paying 22 billion themselves, and that money does not come from the budget surplus of the last year but from a global public loan which is then paid back next year via tax money or saves on certain areas. There's a budget to follow everywhere, and Finland for one has already finished the preliminary budget for the year and the one coming. At this moment the government is suggesting an 1,6 billion addition which is quite a huge cut, but can be added through loan. There's no point in time when the state budget would be not used except for the time when it's used for the governments own leisure, like it was in Greece (corruption talk etc.).

So Andail, as a Swede, I didn't think you'd understand not being part of the monetary union and all, and yeah wham, it's not only Slovenia & Finland here. It's just normal budget handling procedure. Most of the money about is floating on thin air with no ground under it. Basically Greece is owning air and we're aiding them with air. Sadly the fuse to it all was a couple of mispriced houses on the other side of the world and a couple of figures on a screen


And fuck me, it's 1:31 am here, I should be asleep ready for my class tomorrow, but here I am, writing about global political economy solutions and waiting for my girlfriend to bring her friends over for an after party. Oh, I never thought I'd like economics, but the last few courses at the uni have opened my eyes.

[Tuomas]

All there years, we're like, oh, it's okay, things will get better.
Oh, it's okay, things will get better. I'm not saying go kill. I'm saying go do something. And if we're actually gonna go eye for an eye, head for the parliament. Tear down that building, it's only a symbol of Democracy, Freedom, Justice. Where the fuck are those things?

Nevertheless, you'd rather end up with an anarchy than a working set of government. After it's all down, it's harder to rebuild anew.

[Mr Flibble]

You know what I hate. I hate people dying. You know what I hate more? Is people living like they're dead!
I've had it. I don't care if Greece ends up anarchy. I don't care if it ends up with full hospitals.

What I can't cope with is having my god-damn everyday life!

All there years, we're like, oh, it's okay, things will get better.
Oh, it's okay, things will get better. I'm not saying go kill. I'm saying go do something. And if we're actually gonna go eye for an eye, head for the parliament. Tear down that building, it's only a symbol of Democracy, Freedom, Justice. Where the fuck are those things?

"I don't need to tell you things are bad, everybody knows things are bad..."

[Dualnames]

Perhaps I've been watching too much V for Vendetta lately.

[Jim Reed]

I'd say anian is an optimistic Croat, as he is obviously playing it down.
As for Greece...well, it sure doesn't look good.
My solution would be simple really. As I remember, the first democracy originated in Greece, with politicians not geting payed for their work.
They ruled the country for honour and ideals, trying to make the best decisions for their people. Now the money motivates them, so they are prone to make decisions that go in favour of those that can give them the most money (the rich), which really doesn't benefit the common folk (middle and lower classes, ie. 98 percent of the populace - You don't see the rich demonstrating now, do you?). Those bad decions are now being reaped.
I say that you should remove the decision makers (lawfully, mind you - I'm not advocating revolution here), as they are obviously bad for the most (that'd be the middle and lower classes), and place a democrat/s on top, who will make good decisions for the most of the people, as democrats should.
Too bad most of the politicians are all crooked and linked, so you will prolly vote for them, even if you randomly pick a party from the voting sheet on the next election. Not to mention that politicians breed and raise children to continue after they die.
So, is there a way out? Sure...individually, you could go a bit native and raise your own food, and learn to make stuff you need, thus getting more independant from the goverment and it's problems.
Collectivelly, well that is tough one, though I imagine some kind of a lower class social network, unrelated to the goverment, but that's revolution again hahahaha. Scratch that then, I have no idea.

[passer-by]

You keep referring to loans as if the new austerity measures are the only thing Greece will do to pay them off. What about import- export  deals, military deals, political deals, legislative deals, foreign affairs and god knows what else. I don't think there is a country who lends another country money just because they have a good heart. The money they lend will come back to them in multiple ways, or they wouldn't do it.

Or you really believe the austerity measures are the only thing the countries who give the loans will ask Greece to do??? Do you really believe that credit organisations play it hard just to save the euro or they wait until Greece is in such a state of (self-inflicted, it's true) chaos that will say yes to everything and sell its citizens short?

I don't say Greece didn't make mistakes. On the opposite, the last years were full of bad decisions or simply self-interest decisions. I just hope this golden opportunity to speculate and make money using Greece's bad reputation won't end up destabilising the region instead of its economy only.

[Anian]

Well as far as I remember from Colbert report, in California they're trying to make elections so you can vote for anyone you want, which sounds great in theory, but it leads to that which Colbert concluded - so the richest man will win. More money equals more exposure and more advertisemnts and more propaganda etc.
No politician is at his post and cannot run a goverment/state/city etc. without favours and connections, as with all social/political/society orders and theories, fine in theory but as soon as you make it "real" and try to make it work in practice, you get the "human factor" (greed, honour, ethics, money, power...) and it all falls apart. I mean, you know a doctor, you'd try to find a faster/better specialist if you're child was sick and yet any other time you hate everybody who uses such favours and manipulations of the system.

Anarchy might not be the awnser but I think the whole civilisation should be restarted.

IMF is a slavery, it's not even necessary evil, it's a product of years of evolvment of political and monetary systems to suit a volentary enslavement (or rather control which is far better) that's perfectly legal.
I mean it's like it came a full circle only upted the ante - free, social connection, slaves, some slaves, feudal (you are free but cannot really leave), freedom with being poor, to thinking you're free but are actually so interconnected with your society (with jobs, credit cards, politcs...) that you are very much controled and ruled but you don't know it most of the time and at others you don't really care.

[Jim Reed]

Anarchy might not be the awnser but I think the whole civilisation should be restarted.

Haha, the first Croatian space colonist!

On a more serious note, after your post, yeah, a clean cut would be best if the things are wrong, but if the situation is fixable, a clean cut would be a bad move.

Or maybe Greeks should adopt the oldest Bosnian axiom of wisdom (hey, they got a pyramid now, they must be old and wise) which answers all problems with the saying: ''Fuck it!'' (Jebiga)