Weird English pronunciation of Obamar

Snarky · Thu 19/03/2009 00:49:02

I often listen to the BBC World Service while driving to work, and one quirk of English pronunciation is starting to puzzle and (mildly) irritate me.

A lot of Brits (though not all) will stick an "r" onto the end of words that end in a vowel, when they precede a word that also begins in a vowel. Lately, you've been hearing this a lot with Obama. For example: "President Obamar explained his economic policies." But you get it with a lot of other words as well, especially "saw" and "idea." ("I sawr it with my own eyes!")

Now, I can guess why this would be: Since many English dialects tend to drop the final "r" in words like "car", "mother", etc., unless they're followed by another vowel, inserting the "r" sound becomes instinctive, and speakers start doing it even where it doesn't belong.

Apparently this phenomenon is known as "intrusive R," and has been around for a long time. But it seems to have been getting much more frequent in recent years. (I don't remember hearing it when I lived in the UK, though quite possibly I just wasn't sensitive to it.)

Do any of you Englishers use it or notice it? Do you consider it incorrect?

m0ds · Thu 19/03/2009 01:13:57

On the contrary, I've heard a lot of Americans say O-bar-mar.

But yes, especially with the more posh English accents you'll notice these r's seem more pronunciated. And to be fair, you don't get much more posh English accents than you do on World Service!

It's also just one of those things that change from place to place too. For example, as you'd expect in America with its many states some will say yeah, some will say hyip, some will say eyerr, and stuff.

In normal conversation it definitely isn't as obvious, it may not even be there -- but you have to remember that Radio presenters, TV presenters etc all have to speak slowly, clearly - and in many cases they put that final "down tone" in voice at the end of a sentance.

Those are just my thoughts Snarky! I don't know why I was compelled to answer.

Sam. · Thu 19/03/2009 01:23:35

I personally pronounce it Oh-baa-mah.

I don't know how posh you'd say I am, but my voice is on the AGS podcasts if you want to gauge it.

Eggie · Thu 19/03/2009 02:07:35

I pronounce it OSAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!! IRAQ HUSSEIN OSAMA!!!!!!!!

What? It's a speech impediment...

LUniqueDan · Thu 19/03/2009 02:33:14

I'm french, so we pronunce it something like : "NIN-PORT-KEW-AHH-DOTT-SAY-PLEWS-MYU-CLOTH-TAH-RAY-DAH-VA"

But it's probably from the way "OH" and "AHH" are different from a langage to an other.
...
Sorry, Freudian Slip.

SSH · Thu 19/03/2009 09:52:38

I say Obber muh

Seriously though, the west country accent tends to have terminal Rs added. So Obama rhymes with "Farmer", or rather "Farmerrrrrrr". Perhaps the World Service have hired a Bristolian?

Some wierd people say "barth" instead of "bath", too.

mkennedy · Thu 19/03/2009 10:02:32

(Quimby accent) "I'm gonna eat some Chowda and watch Dora the Explora!"

Andail · Thu 19/03/2009 12:12:25

We were taught intrusive R's back in Uni. Not to use them, of course (unless we wanted to) but that they existed and why.

I distinctly remember hearing it in Mods' AGS opera "Helm", where the songs goes he'll draw[r] a background for you and me, so it's funny that the first to respond here is Mods himself

I hear it most often when Australians and Brits speak, and it seems very frequent in certain phrases, like "China[r] and x" and "law[r] and order".

As a non-native, I tend to notice every single time it occurs.

Disco · Thu 19/03/2009 12:55:35

I was hosting two English friends around election time last year and they kept saying "Barack" like "bear-uhk", interesting for a name that was so widely televised

Tuomas · Thu 19/03/2009 13:02:07

Funny thing, I think I'd really need to hear it myself before I could really tell what you're talking about. I mean. I have an idea, but I just don't hear myself pronouncing that r there in between :/

Ali · Thu 19/03/2009 13:07:07

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/03/2009 00:49:02
Now, I can guess why this would be: Since many English dialects tend to drop the final "r" in words like "car", "mother", etc., unless they're followed by another vowel, inserting the "r" sound becomes instinctive, and speakers start doing it even where it doesn't belong.

Thanks for saying English, rather than British, because the 'r' dropping is an English thing. I'm not particularly bothered 'r' adding, except in a few words like 'drawing' (draw-ring) which do annoy me.

It does annoy me when my fellow English people attempt an American or Scottish accent and add 'r's where they don't exist. "Can't" is the biggest one, a lot of English people accent the imaginary 'r' and say "Carn't" when doing an American accent in particular. That annoys me.

Not as much as the fact that the cast of Friends don't pronounce the letter 't'. The word "tomorrow" could easily be "nomorrow" and no one would notice the difference. The words "can" and "can't" are virtual homophones on that show. I don't want homophones on TV when kids could be watching.

SSH · Thu 19/03/2009 14:27:39

Some people don't know their R's from their elbow...

Ishmael · Thu 19/03/2009 15:21:48

When not in very imaginarily wrong places (like in "can't") I like the extra R's in spoken English. But I do like most dialects that don't try to ruin gammar anyway...

Intense Degree · Thu 19/03/2009 15:58:26

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 19/03/2009 00:49:02
Apparently this phenomenon is known as "intrusive R," and has been around for a long time. But it seems to have been getting much more frequent in recent years. (I don't remember hearing it when I lived in the UK, though quite possibly I just wasn't sensitive to it.)

That's interesting, i'd never heard of intrusive R's before, I always thought it was just the difference between "long A" and "short A" sounds.

I hear lots of americans saying "Ba - rarck" "oh - bam - a" which sounds weird too!

monkey0506 · Thu 19/03/2009 18:20:08

I honestly always believed it was pronounced Arr-BAR-marr. Must be a Texas thing.

Spoiler

Hell no I'm not serious. But Obamar is still the Anti-Christ.

[close]

Revan · Fri 20/03/2009 05:23:06

Wow.. I'm English, and at first I thought; here comes another American, on his high horse, telling me that I speak and spell incorrectly. (not sure if you are even American)

I read your post and I was impressed: Not only did you get your point across, explaining yourself very well, and with out offending me

, you have a valid point.

I didn't quite get the Obama thing until you explained further...

I pronounce Obama like this : Oh-baa-mah

However if i put it in a sentence in which the word is followed be a vowel:

"She bought Obama a new car"

I pronounce it like this : Oh-baa-mer-a ... 'Obama a' becomes one word with an 'r' inserted...

I have never heard of this before, and never noticed it... Im gonna be cringing every time it happens now lol

I find this very fascinating...

Also I come from the north west of England (near Manchester), and we tend to leave out the word 'the' in some sentences, depending on it's structure:

Example: "She live's up towards the shops." Would turn into "She live's up towards 'shops."

The gap is usually filled with a very quick, low tone, intake of breath: "She live's up towards <HUP> 'shops."

Dialect is a strange thing...

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Fri 20/03/2009 09:37:58

The only pronunciations that bother me are those that inhibit my understanding of whatever the hell the person said.

kaputtnik · Fri 20/03/2009 10:23:16

One very prominent example of this ghostly "r" is "A day in the life" by the Beatles. The song clearly goes: "I sawra film today, oh boy." I always thought this was a hallucination induced joke, now I know it was only good, clean accent.

Trihan · Fri 20/03/2009 10:26:22

Accents have always fascinated me. It's amazing that even in one small region of the world there somehow developed a multitude of distinct accents and I've always wondered exactly how it happened and why.

monkey0506 · Fri 20/03/2009 16:46:20

The ironic thing is that the English are supposed to speak "proper English," as opposed the the wretched, bastardized "Amerikaanized Engrish." It's really quite interesting that the English do this.

Sam. · Fri 20/03/2009 16:57:13

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/03/2009 16:46:20
The ironic thing is that the English are supposed to speak "proper English," as opposed the the wretched, bastardized "Amerikaanized Engrish." It's really quite interesting that the English do this.

I'm not sure i'd interpret it as a mistake. If we are supposed to speak proper english (which we do

) then surely people who DON'T do it are making the mistake.

Revan · Sun 22/03/2009 17:52:29

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/03/2009 16:46:20
The ironic thing is that the English are supposed to speak "proper English," as opposed the the wretched, bastardized "Amerikaanized Engrish." It's really quite interesting that the English do this.

If you're so great... spell colour...

Eggie · Sun 22/03/2009 19:14:54

*whispers discreetly in Revon's ear before our nations victory gets punctured by a very obvious joke he just set up*

markbilly · Sun 22/03/2009 19:18:59

A Scottish friend of mine has a friend called "lar" and was frequently annoyed his English friends calling her "laR". He tried to explain how to say "lar" without the r, but it came out as "laR" or "la" whenever I said it. I never really knew what he was on about. Obviously the same kind of thing.

What annoys me, is the way British people say Barack wrong, when talking about Obama. They "Ba-ruck Obarmuh" as in army barracks. It should be "B'rack Obarma", surely.

Interesting stuff.

Revan · Mon 23/03/2009 09:10:15

Quote from: Eggie on Sun 22/03/2009 19:14:54
*whispers discreetly in Revon's ear before our nations victory gets punctured by a very obvious joke he just set up*

Not sure what your getting at. At first I thought I'd spelt something wrong. But I think it's all correct.

Misj' · Mon 23/03/2009 10:51:58

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Fri 20/03/2009 16:46:20
The ironic thing is that the English are supposed to speak "proper English," as opposed the the wretched, bastardized "Amerikaanized Engrish." It's really quite interesting that the English do this.

Well...anyone who can't correctly pronounce Marlboro (a bastardisation of Marlborough) should be banned from the English language altogether, shouldn't they? - And no, Marlborough (and thus Marlboro) is not pronounced as: Mawl-bo-ro.

The correct pronunciation is of course:

Spoiler

Mawl-bra

I'm not good at writing phonetically, though...but those who speak English will know what I mean.

[close]

Andail · Mon 23/03/2009 11:21:08

And it's not Wor-cester-shire, it's

Spoiler

woash

[close]

SSH · Mon 23/03/2009 11:32:08

And "Burgh" is NOT pronounced "Burrow". Edinburgh is pronounced "Edinbrr-rr" or "Edinburra"

Snarky · Mon 23/03/2009 14:59:07

Quote from: Revan on Sun 22/03/2009 17:52:29
If your so great... spell colour...

Quote from: Eggie on Sun 22/03/2009 19:14:54
*whispers discreetly in Revon's ear before our nations victory gets punctured by a very obvious joke he just set up*

Quote from: Revan on Mon 23/03/2009 09:10:15Not sure what your getting at. At first I thought I'd spelt something wrong. But I think it's all correct.

"If your so great"?

BTW, Eggie: "our nations victory"?

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Mon 23/03/2009 15:08:45

The Private Grammar and Punctuation Insultant strikes again!

Eggie · Mon 23/03/2009 15:36:54

I yam hoomiliatad.

monkey0506 · Mon 23/03/2009 16:00:48

colour, k.a.u.l.r, colour. 8)

Edit: Augh, the automagic TXT SPLR strikes again!...that should work.

Revan · Wed 25/03/2009 01:30:15

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 23/03/2009 14:59:07
Quote from: Revan on Sun 22/03/2009 17:52:29
If your so great... spell colour...
Quote from: Eggie on Sun 22/03/2009 19:14:54
*whispers discreetly in Revon's ear before our nations victory gets punctured by a very obvious joke he just set up*
Quote from: Revan on Mon 23/03/2009 09:10:15Not sure what your getting at. At first I thought I'd spelt something wrong. But I think it's all correct.

"If your so great"?

BTW, Eggie: "our nations victory"?

Haha Modified consider myself told! lol

paolo · Fri 27/03/2009 11:59:23

Ahem, back to the topic at hand...

US English (except perhaps in New England) is rhotic, meaning that "r" is always pronounced wherever it appears in a word. In rhotic accents, "bar" and "baa" sound different. UK English as pronounced in the south of England is non-rhotic, which means "r" is only pronounced if it comes before a vowel sound. The "r" is pronounced in "rabbit" but not in "car", which means that "bar" sounds identical to "baa". (In pretty much all of the rest of the UK, English is rhotic.)

So when someone from southern England says something where a word ending in "r" is followed by a word beginning with a vowel sound, the "r" is heard (eg, "The bar is open" is pronounced like "The baa riz open"). This phenomenon is called linking "r" and is acceptable and standard. It is not wrong to omit the linking "r" and in very careful pronunciation, it is not heard ("The baa is open") . When there is a pause after the word ending in "r", there is no linking "r": in "I like it here. I think I'll stay.", there is no linking "r" at the end of "here" even though the word that follows begins with a vowel sound.

The problem is when words not ending in "r" are followed by a vowel, but an "r" is inserted. This is called intrusive "r", as Snarky says. Classic examples are "law and order" and "drawing", - intrusive "r" makes them "law rand order" and "draw-ring". This is often considered incorrect because there is no "r" there to pronounce, but is very common.

Source: The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar, 1994 edition.

It's a very difficult habit to break, actually, and a lot of people don't even realise they are doing it. I usually manage to say "drawing" without an intrusive "r", but it tends to sound hypercorrect or "posh"when pretty much everyone else around me says "drawring", and it is hard to monitor one's speech to listen out for "r"s that aren't there.

I was watching a TV programme (that spelling looks odd to me as a someone who writes computer programs for a living

) made in Scotland, where English is rhotic. One of the characters was talking to another whose name was, let's say, Jessica. He shouted out her name and put an intrusive "r" on the end of her name, even though it was the only word he said. So either it can happen in rhotic accents too, or this was an actor with a non-rhotic accent who was just trying a bit too hard to sound Scottish

So when you hear "Obamarr riz talking to Gordon Brown", feel free to complain to the BBC!

Their standards of English have dropped greatly in recent years.

EDIT: Grr, the text-speech censor keeps changing all my Rs to "are"s...

EDIT 2: And I think it must have changed "...when you hear..." to "...when you here..." as well... at least, that's my excuse

monkey0506 · Fri 27/03/2009 17:24:05

Quote from: paolo on Fri 27/03/2009 11:59:23Grr, the text-speech censor keeps changing all my Rs to "are"s...

Lovely isn't it?

It was a very interesting read about the rhotic/non-rhotic differences. And start throwring some more rarrs in there ya posh bastard!

Tuomas · Fri 27/03/2009 22:29:18

I think the reason I'm not getting this at all is that I don't hear it often. I mean, the intrusive r in all the examples given here seems like something no-one I know would do, and I don't see why it would come to the r expecially. I've actually sat here for a while, trying to pronounce "draw-ring"... But I just can't. Could be a pronounciation thing having grown up talking Finnish, but still, I've never noticed such a phenomenon. I'd still love an audio example, if anyone had one, because the error really sounds too odd to me.

Haddas · Sat 28/03/2009 01:30:58

Quote from: Tuomas on Fri 27/03/2009 22:29:18
I think the reason I'm not getting this at all is that I don't hear it often. I mean, the intrusiveare in all the examples given here seems like something no-one I know would do, and I don't see why it would come to theare expecially. I've actually sat here for a while, trying to pronounce "draw-ring"... But I just can't. Could be a pronounciation thing having grown up talking Finnish, but still, I've never noticed such a phenomenon. I'd still love an audio example, if anyone had one, because the error really sounds too odd to me.

Boyd does it. He even has a joke about it. "What is the name of the invisible dinosaur? D'youthinkhesawrus"

paolo · Sat 28/03/2009 09:20:30

Quote from: Haddas on Sat 28/03/2009 01:30:58
Quote from: Tuomas on Fri 27/03/2009 22:29:18
I've actually sat here for a while, trying to pronounce "draw-ring"... But I just can't. Could be a pronounciation thing having grown up talking Finnish, but still, I've never noticed such a phenomenon.

Boyd does it. He even has a joke about it. "What is the name of the invisible dinosaur? D'youthinkhesawrus"

Nice joke. To my ears, saying "saw us" without the intrusive "r" sounds bizarre and unnatural, even though, strictly speaking, it's correct (and of course the joke wouldn't work if that's what people did say).

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens · Sat 28/03/2009 10:42:33

Apparently, where Boyd lives people like to tack on k's to the end of what they're saying, like 'drawringk' instead of 'drawing'.

TerranRich · Sat 28/03/2009 15:03:17

This isn't just an English thing. Many New Englanders around here will do that, too. When I used to work at Subway (a sandwich shop), people would order a "footlong tuner sandwich", but then they forget their "money in the cah".

I'd be like... why the f*** would you omit the "R", and then ADD ONE where none exists!?

Weird English pronunciation of Obamar

m0ds