London Subway

[Las Naranjas]

So we conclude that an authority figure in religion makes no difference?

[Nacho]

We can conclude that a main source of authority is necessary, so we will know the message, and we will know there won't be more than one message.

If there is not a central authority we won't even know which the message is.

[SSH]

But there's two major forms of Islam anyway, Shia and Sunni, and the Pope only accounts for about half the world's christians...

Anyway, isn't the central authority suppsoed to be God?


Wierdly enough, I find the fact that the police have admitted to killing a completely inccocent man slightly reassuring: the fact that they admitted it themselves and not cover it up is a sign that some of the whacky conspiracy theories abou tthe whole thing are even more far-fetched

[Nacho]

I am not talking of the different forms of a religion (i.e. Sunnis, Wahabies, catholics, lutherans...) I am saying that the lack of a central authority is bad because it makes the message uncontrolable, and easier to frustrated people to use the word of God for completelly different reasons than the original sense of it.

And it'snot me just who says it. The imam of Madrid is who said it, that any muslim can be autoprocailed Imam, and that he considered it dangerous. That's why I am asking to the muslims AGSers, because it sounds really weird for me and I'd like to know if that is common of it just happens because Spain is too far away from La Meca and there are exceptions (For example, somo of our mosques do not aim to La Meca, but to Gibraltar, because they consider it's the gate to Africa...).

I'd really like to have some answers, for my curiousity. If some can PM me, Babar, Gord... I'll read the PM gladly.

[Pumaman]

The Troubles also brings me to CJ's point...does Egypt really have a greater experience of terrorism than Britain?

There's a list of terrorist attacks in teh last 15 years in Egypt here:
http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=9411

While London certainly had the IRA to contend with, it wasn't on the same scale as that.

Wierdly enough, I find the fact that the police have admitted to killing a completely inccocent man slightly reassuring:

Well, he can't have been completely innocent -- he ran from the police for a reason. Though his crime probably was just something like shoplifting or being an illegal immigrant, in which case his punishment is rather harsh.

[Andail]

CJ, the man was running away because he was chased by men - not uniformed - with raised guns. He was terrified, and not only innocent, but allegedly also a very peaceful (albeit stressed) man.
I hope this is not something you take lightly in England. The authorities and constabulary sanctioning the murder of a perfectly innocent man is very frightening to me, and is contrary to the idea of a law-governed society.
It smells 1984, frankly.

[Nacho]

As far as I've read, he had not the residense paper in order. It's been an awful accident, but if is easy to understand the position of the polices.

The guy was suspicious, two weeks ago they were 60 men killed. The day before some people was exploding bombs in the subway... I am sure that the polices were convinced that the guy was just a button-pushing away to kill another dozen people. That makes a big difference for me, but that's sad, indeed... 

[Kweepa]

Shooting Jean Charles de Menezes in the back of the head after pinning him to the ground is pure police brutality. They may have felt it was necessary, and a split second decision, but they should be looking at scenarios like this one in advance.

If he'd wanted to detonate explosives, why would he have waited until the (plain clothes) police pinned him to the ground? It's nonsensical. He could have pushed this mythical button at any point up to that, when running through crowds.
Why did the police follow him from a house, on and off a bus, before chasing him into a tube station? Why not take him into custody in a more quiet way, in a more quiet place?

I sympathise with the position the police are in, but claiming this type of action is justified is not the answer.

[Pumaman]

CJ, the man was running away because he was chased by men - not uniformed - with raised guns. He was terrified, and not only innocent, but allegedly also a very peaceful (albeit stressed) man.
I hope this is not something you take lightly in England. The authorities and constabulary sanctioning the murder of a perfectly innocent man is very frightening to me, and is contrary to the idea of a law-governed society.
It smells 1984, frankly.

From what I've read about the incident, it looks like an almost unavoidable tragic mistake.

As I understand it, the plain clothes police shouted at him to stop where he was outside the station. For some reason, instead of stopping he decided to run inside the station as fast as possible towards the train.

Seeing this, and the fact that he was wearing a big puffy jacket, the police had to assume that he was a suicide bomber aiming to blow himself up on the train before they could catch him, so they decided to shoot.

You can see why the police made that decision, but as it turns out it was the wrong decision. It's not as cut-and-dry as just saying that the police were wrong; it seems like they were in an almost impossible situation. What if they hadn't shot him, and then he had been wearing a bomb belt and had blown himself up?

The authorities and constabulary sanctioning the murder of a perfectly innocent man is very frightening to me, and is contrary to the idea of a law-governed society.

Of course, but at the time of the decision he appeared by his actions to be about to commit mass murder. With the state of alert so high at the moment, if you're going to run from the police it's not a good idea to run towards a subway train after all that's happened lately.

[Las Naranjas]

So that's why they usually only give the bobbies truncheons...
Poor bloke was just wearing a jacket because of what passes for "Summer" in the UK.

Also, terrorism has reached one end if we're so terrified we do the killing for it.

[Matt Goble]

I find myself disagreeing and agreeing with all of the previous posts at present.

The reassuring thing is that we can spend hours and even weeks discussing these things, while the police make snap decisions.

A friend of mine made the comment today that white guys with guns running around Stockwell (The site of this recent incident) is porbably not that uncommon!

What happend to Jean Charles de Menezes was a tragic accident and I wouldn't want to be the officers who have to live  with their desicion - If I thought I was chasing a suicide bomber and had him pinned to the ground, I would want to make sure for my own benefit, if not other people, that the guy was physically incable of pressing any button.

If I was wrong, I don't know how I would live with myself knowing I had killed an innocent man.  Yes he came out of a block of flats linked with last weeks failed bombings, yes he was wearing a heavy jacket on a warm day, yes he ran when told to stop, but the facts are he turned out to be innocent.

The only positive I can think at this stage is that people learn real quick that if a bunch of guys have guns and tell you to stop, whether they are plain clothes police or muggers, DO AS THEY SAY.  Best case scenario is you're alive but without your wallet...

[stu]

an absolute tradegy.

if he had explosives strapped to his chest, then the policemen involved would be crowned heros, and not on suspension pending investigation.

i really think the police should have made themselves much more apparent that they were actually policemen. i read in the paper today that a witness of the shooting said they didn't even shout, 'police!'.

the police don't shoot people 7 times in the head for fun, the evidence and intellegence recieved suggested beyond reasonable doubt that this man was a serious threat to inncocent life, so they acted accordingly.

[Nacho]

In the "version" it is reaching here, he jumped two controls (subway tickets controls, not police ones) and was forcing a subway door to enter in the train. Tragic, yeah, but I've probably have made the same than the cops. If it was as the press is saying, it matches perfectly with the pattern of a kamikaze who, having been spotted, tryies to make the massacre as big as possible reaching to a crownded train.

Even if he was in Ã, the floor, stopped but not redouced, I'd have probably have shooted if I have seen any movement capable to make him reaching any button or detonating device. It is a different thing is he was immobilized with shackles or something. Then we are talking of an execution, but I don't think this was the case.

Sorry for saying that I'd have killed an innocent to, but I am trying to be honest, seeing the all the circumstances together...