Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[CaptainBinky]

Hello chaps,

I know the whole issue has been raised time and time again, but...

We've recently started to publicise our upcoming AGS game, The Forgotten Element, on various adventure-related websites and for anyone who hasn't seen it, the central character is a fairly amply-endowed girl. Now, this character is not like this for arbitrary reasons but revealing too much about her would rather spoil the story.

Most people on AGS have been fairly positive which has been lovely, but never were we expecting the reactions that we've had

on this site...

or here...

Is a character like ours really that offensive or is this the minority?

[lemmy101]

I guess what unsettled me the most was that I'd always seen indy game development as a chance for people to express themselves creatively, without any political red tape, marketing potential, USRB ratings, bosses telling you what to do, target demographics and all the other things that are quite a curse to the game industry as a whole. Even copyright issues seem to pass this type of community by more often than not.

If we were trying to profit from it, it might be slightly different. But at the end of the day we're making this because we enjoy making it, and we're making it hoping some people will enjoy it. We didn't really expect this kind of venomous reaction over something, in our mind at least, as mild as a cleavage shot, to happen within a freeware "for the community" community.

[Adamski]

I think the main character being a nurse with ridiculously oversized teenage fantasy boobs practically bursting out of her tiny little top says more about the creators of the game than anything else, and you shouldn't be surprised that people find this kind of caracature offensive. I personally don't find it offensive, just... very silly, especially so if it's supposed to signify how attractive the main character is (unless you're using it as a satirical metaphor in your game and not for the HAWT BUSTY PLAYBOY BABE factor).

[CaptainBinky]

But good grief, okay she's not realistically proportioned and her top is quite revealing but...

Look at Magna Carta or Final Fantasy characters. They're much more ridiculous, and some of the costume borderline on fetish. And yet those games prove popular with male and female gamers both in Japan and the west.

And true it does say something about the person who drew it (er, that'll be me then), and I think what it says is "I'm not gay"

er, better just qualify that last bit before I cause another argument - I don't have a problem with people's sexual preferences. Each to their own, free country etc.

[Nacho]

Relax, if you do a girl with a little top, some people is going to complain about that, saying you are male chauvinist, old fashioned, blah, blah...

But if you do the other side of the coin (A semi-nude man) people will start complaining ("Why don't you do a girl in spite of a man? A nude man is disgusting")<---This has been said in this forums.

So, accept it, your game is not going to like everybody. But the game looks promising, and the graphics look excelent. Go on with it.

[MrColossal]

If you're making the game because you want to make it then who cares what other people think? Stop defending the game if it's for your amusement.

That said:

The girl isn't offensive, she just seems pointless. First you say that you drew her like that because:

"Hey, if we have to draw 20 frames of walking * 4 directions, plus pushing, pulling, talking, idleing, opening things etc animations all in whatever spare time we can muster, then it's going to be a girl. Nothing wrong with that. Honest."

Which, sure, is a funny joke. But then you say that there is a reason in the story why her breasts hang from her throat in huge melon shaped orbs.

So it's a story element... This leads me to believe that there is a part of the story where she puts on a nurses outfit that is 3 sizes too small and I really see how that can be a story element in a serious game so I'm inclined to believe that the game is a paradoy or humorous. Unless she is found in a tree and the only clothes they can find ever to clothe her is a nurses outfit 3 sizes too small and then all the other clothes in the world explode.

Ah, I see, I take it from some of your comments she's supposed to be a dream woman in all ways. A dream and an idealized dream woman. If that's your story then that's your story. If you don't want to give away any parts of the story and believe that the art is justified through story then stop defending it and just say "Wait and see!"

Also, I wouldn't say that you've recieved much venom. Squinky [oldschool] wrote she didn't like it in her blog and someone on the AG forums said they didn't want to play it based on the art. He was the most venomous and he was just one person.

[biothlebop]

It's nicely drawn and I do not see it as vulgar or offensive, but I am a man and I like boobies. It's kinda boring though (at least in games), the big busted woman thing has been overused. I don't actually remeber a main character that would have been really hung or had huge balls. He could wear leopard strings too. Just a idea.
What comes to Final Fantasy and the Japanese creators (or Japanese people in general) and fetishes, you have to see that shit to believe. Why they are so popular, that is thanks to a long refinement process. Even I have played some of the Final Fantasies and enjoyed them. They have perfected the gametype like Diablo 2 (which has even less depth, but is addictive as hell). I have no idea what Magna Carter is though.

[CaptainBinky]

@Farlander:
You're right, mountains, molehills, etc. We did get a bit defensive, and we didn't really mean it. We'll be finishing the game regardless and hopefully people will see beyond the norks to what will hopefully be a pretty cool game.

@MrColossal:
Er, yeah. I think in our attempts to justify things we've contradicted ourselves a few times. Mostly this has been in jest. There is a sort of reason behind her look, but to be perfectly honest the real reason she looks like that is mostly down to my (and Lemmy's) personal preferences. I think the main reason that we got a bit defensive was just the fact that we got singled out, when the videogame industry is filled with stuff far more gratuitous than our picture.

@Biothlebop:
enjoy

[Dan]

Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages, but lets face it that is not a woman, its an artists drawing. Whether her parts fit the plot or not is irrelevant. Its your art, you make her how you want her to look.

Arguments about art such as this have been going on for centuries, look at Michelangelo's David for example. Alright so he doesn't have a 12 inch schlong and was created by a man, but I think the point is still valid. People are always going to be offended by things that others wouldn't give a second thought.

Anyway, my opinion is I like it and certainly don't find it in the least vulgar.

[Barbarian]

Make your game the way you guys want to make it. As far as I'm concerned, it looks like you're doing an awesome job so far on your project, and you've been putting in a lot of time and effort in making it the way you guys want to make it. Ã,  Also, from what comments I've seen so far in regards to your game-in-production, most comments from the adventure-gaming-masses seem fairly positive, and looks many people are impressed ith your project thus far and are looking forwards to seeing your game in action (myself included).
If your game's story, puzzles, playability and other elements of the game is as good in quality of the fantastic artwork, then I think this is gonna be one awesome game that most adventure-gaming fans will very much appreciate and enjoy!

There's an old saying (it seems I mentioned to someone else recently) that goes: "You can please some of the people some of the times, but you can't please all of the people all of the times." Ã,  Heck, if ya wanna make a game featuring a gal with big-boobs or a guy with a big-dork, then go for it! Ã,  Ã, 
Keep up the good work.

[CaptainBinky]

Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages

Little arms? How peculiar. Still, each to their own I suppose

[ildu]

Do what you want. Who are they to make you change anything? Case closed.

[lemmy101]

Thanks for the kind words!

Thing is, we both did actually think long and hard as to whether our lead character would "give people the wrong impression about the game" but eventually wrote it off and thought "well sod it, if they play the game anyway and enjoy it on its own merits, then it won't be a problem. It's our game, and we'll have a nurse if we want to!" we kind of expected some people would interpret the game the wrong way, we just didn't really think it would cause any actual offense.

You live and learn though

[Dan]

Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages

Little arms? How peculiar. Still, each to their own I suppose

LOL, from google:
An appendage is, in general, an external body part that projects from the body, or a natural prolongation or projection from a part of any organism, such as a vertebrate's limb

So surely her breasts COULD be classed as appendages Anyway who cares

[Tuomas]

Personally I prefer a woman with smaller... erm... appendages

erm, I don't suppose you're comfort the thought of having small "appendages"? Eh, sorry, very bad joke and with very bad English at that

Anyway, I find it all just plain stupidity. The blog is vulgar. I don't see how your character should offend anyone or that you should go about thinking it would. It's the viewer that gets offended, and big boobs are everyday life at that. You see them every day. At least on tv, I don't see them irl, and not that I wanted to. And yes, as far as I know, people do get silicone in their breasts. So does this offend those who do it or those who don't? I don't get the ballyhoo about it.

[MrColossal]

@MrColossal:
Er, yeah. I think in our attempts to justify things we've contradicted ourselves a few times. Mostly this has been in jest. There is a sort of reason behind her look, but to be perfectly honest the real reason she looks like that is mostly down to my (and Lemmy's) personal preferences. I think the main reason that we got a bit defensive was just the fact that we got singled out, when the videogame industry is filled with stuff far more gratuitous than our picture.

If you make an ags game you're part of the community and what happens in the community doesn't have to [and shouldn't, in my opinion] be equated to the game industry as a whole.

You aren't being singled out mainly because there is no group to single you out from. Are you being singled out from all AGS games? Sure, but that's not relevant. Are you being singled out from all games that feature large breasted main characters with impossibly erect nipples? Sure, but you're the only game on that list so far as I know.

"to be perfectly honest the real reason she looks like that is mostly down to my (and Lemmy's) personal preferences."

So... If that is the final truth then do you see the point people make saying that a main character like that is hard to take seriously in the seemingly serious story you have said is being written? If there is no main plot point for 36G breasts and the reason you want her to look like that is because you want her to look like that [nothing wrong with this] then I personally feel that for me it's going to be hard for me to get into the game or take any of its plot points seriously.

Granted I haven't played the game and yes indeed there are probably super smart, intelligent and wonderful people who look just like her all over this earth that are perfectly capable of having deep emotions and interesting lives but in a game setting that is not the first impression one gets.

But anyway, now that you've got all this interest I'm sure tons of people will play your game and I'm sure I'll give it a shot. Just, for me, get your story straight on why she has tig ol' bitties and don't say people shouldn't complain [or that squinky can't blog about it] because the boobs are justified.

[voh]

Big breasts, small breasts, inverted breasts, exploding breasts.

Who cares? Honestly, the victim role is so 1990's, get over it. Leisure Suit Larry had an amazing amount of boobies in it, and they were a joy to play, regardless of the gratuitous images.

If the game is good, then it's a good game with a main character with big boobies. If the game is horrid, it's a horrid game with a main character with big boobies.

Why should the "appendages" matter to the end result?

[Helm]

I'm a bit stupid like that in that when I first saw the image I zoomed in and checked out the pixel art, wondering why the artist didn't dither between the shades, why the line of the neck on the fabric isn't antialiased and that sort of thing. I remember thinking 'she has a pretty face, and these boobs are ridiculous' but I wasn't outraged or anything. I remember thinking the in-game sprite looked a bit worse for the huge mammaries. Personally, I'm pretty sure she'd look even more alluring dressed in something sensible and with regular boobs, but hey, if nurse outfit it has to be, 2 sizes too small, huge tits, whatever.

I'll have no problem taking the game seriously regardless of her boob size. It doesn't matter much to me. I do see a problem with such depictions of women in popular culture generally, but it's a generalized phenomenon, my opinions on the matter simply have nothing to do with a game you're making on your spare time, to indulge on your personal wants. Political Correctness I'll leave to the politically correct. I beat up women and have sex with goats.

[ManicMatt]

I'm a bit stupid like that in that when I first saw the image I zoomed in and checked out the pixel art, wondering why the artist didn't dither between the shades, why the line of the neck on the fabric isn't antialiased and that sort of thing. I remember thinking 'she has a pretty face, and these boobs are ridiculous' but I wasn't outraged or anything.

Yeah I thought the same, except I didn't zoom in, and I didn't know WHY the boobs looked wrong (Not the shape of them as such, but the way it's been painted) but I knew it didn't look right. But I hope there is a puzzle in the game where it rains and you have to make a makeshift umbrella using some cloth and her nipples.

[CaptainBinky]

@MrColossal:
To clarify, ther is no particular reason why her boobs should be that exact size other than personal taste. There is a perfectly valid reason why she should be attractive, and in my efforts to draw "attractive" (to me, at least), I drew her with big boobs, so there is a "sort of" justification for them. We also wanted her to look different from the other female characters in the game. And the nurse's uniform is completely justified even though we could conceivably had made it a little larger.