Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[Kinoko]

Oh, true, I was only looking at the close-up. As you would...

EDIT: Oh yeah... once again, I get post 100 ^_^

[lemmy101]

I just figured it out! It's a quite ingenious plot actually. She is cursed with big boobs so no one takes her seriously. Throughout the game she goes on talking to people about saving the forest and grain and the world  and all that crap and the npc's are just like: HEY, BOOBS! and aren't even listening, so she has to do all the work herself. I personally think it is an excellent idea. She not only has to svae the world but fight against sexism!

[En garde!]

Well, yeah. It is vulgar. It's pure, unsubtle fan service. The intention is to titillate, more than anything else.

And you know what? Well done. Be proud of it. Just say: "Yes, we enjoy fan service, and we are using it in our game. And we love it". Sure, let there be nice plain looking girls as protagonists. Or plump. Or ninety year old women. Or big-breasted bimbos, Let there be every sort of characters you want to make. It's your world, and you should never make excuses for it.

Now, the dilemma here is: does it objectivize women? Sure. If you are living in the sixties. If you are living in the twenty-first century, all I can say is: patronize much? Hell, the dirtiest-minded more sexually obsessed people I know are girls.

Nowadays feminism has been effectively replaced by post-feminism. A school of thought that considers openly sexual characters in fiction as empowering for women (as long as they are doing the ass kicking and/or the thinking, as opposed as being tied to a railroad waiting for the dashing hero to rescue them. That would be sexist no matter what they wear.)

I'll even go further than that, and say that, from a post-feminist point of view, trying to "control" a women's (even a pixelated one) sexuality, like saying that the representation of a girl shouldn't wear a sexy nurse outfit, is pretty much chauvinistic by modern standards.

So there. Rant off.

[Kinoko]

I would say then, that I belong to the school of post-post-feminism. I like girls who are sexy and kick ass, but I also like girls who aren't afraid to be girly, or weak, or very feminine if that's who they are and that's what they want to be. I just want girls to be what they want, not just thinking they need to take one particular female role. Just be people, people

[lemmy101]

Wow this thread has certainly ballooned over night! Some very interesting comments, opinions and theories. Also some very entertaining posts (LimpingFish's particularly, on all counts )

I'm glad the consensus seems to be "do it how you want", not that we had any plans of doing any different.

In the paraphrased words of Chris Morris "If anyone has downloaded the game just because of all the fuss that's been made of it, I think they should delete it... then download it again just because they like the game"

At the end of the day, we posted the screenshots when we had two final screenshots to show (the forum minimum). One of them just happened to be the main character, obviously a high priority on things to draw first, who happened to be somewhat "controversial", without the context to justify it. We didn't really consider the impact it would have, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't quite pleased with the interest it has generated.

Thanks for all your comments!

Lemmy

[CaptainBinky]

This has all been most interesting (and quite amusing). I'm afraid I may have confused things a little with my rather contradictory points on why she looks like that and how much/little this has to do with the story. This is basically because we've been trying to tread a line between how much of the story to give away and how much we justify the character.

So I'd just like to post here what Lemmy posted on the AD forum because I think it makes the point I was trying to make very well...

"Fair enough. People feel that her look does not sit well in the story we've described. Truth is that the story we've described has got (quite a huge amount) of omissions. Play the demo when it comes out, if you wish, and draw your own conclusions at that point. Perhaps you will feel differently after that, maybe even percieve some irony in all of this. "

I draw your attention the the word irony. This will of course make no sense until you know the story which you won't find out until you play the game. However, there was someone who posted here who got rather close to the crux of it all...

[DGMacphee]

DG to the rescue with some motherfucking common sense!!

Is it vulgar?

Answer: Who gives a shit? As if the entire world is going to pee their pants over something as banal as a big pair of cartoon titties. "oh noes, alert the internet police! we might have another nipplegate on our hands! right-wing idiot parents will ring up chris jones and abuse the shit out of him cause the picture might cause impressionable young women to dress like sluts, which can lead to rape, which can lead to ABORTIONS! HOLY CRAP SOCIETY JUST FARTED AND WE ARE ITS CASUALTIES!!! SOMEONE CALL JOHN ASHCROFT TO COVER UP THOSE DIRTY DIRTY BOOBS!!"

Anyone who thinks it's vulgar needs to take a long nap and then wake up so I can slap them asleep again. Shut up all of you.

Now to the other point that has been raised -- whether the big titties are necessary to the game or whether they're pointless.

Answer: They're pointless.

But so what?

Let me tell you a story about someone...

*swirly dream sequence*

The son of a policeman and a nurse, Russ Meyer made amateur films in his early teens, winning prizes at 15. He spent World War II in Europe as a combat cameraman, then after the war became a professional photographer, shooting some of the earliest "Playboy" centerfolds. He made his film directorial debut with The Immoral Mr. Teas (1959), the first "nudie" (softcore sex) film to make a profit (over a million dollars), which led to a string of self-financed films that gradually became more bizarre, violent and cartoonish. In 1964 and 1965 he established his style with his "Gothic period", a quartet of black-and-white films Lorna (1964), Mudhoney (1965), Motor Psycho (1965) and Faster, Pussycat! Kill! Kill! (1965)) that many consider to be his best work. After the blockbusting Vixen! (1968), he was hired by 20th-Century Fox to make studio pictures. The first of these, Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (1970), was an enormous hit, but after the lukewarm reception of the uncharacteristically serious The Seven Minutes (1971), Meyer returned to the sex-and-violence films that made his name, culminating in the delirious Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens (1979). He spent the 1980s working on various autobiographies, both in film (The Breast of Russ Meyer) and print ("A Clean Breast").

- from IMDB's mini-bio

The acknowledged pioneer of the sexploitation film began shooting home movies as a teenager, using a camera given him by his mother. He was a combat photographer stationed in Europe during World War 2, an experience he claims molded his outlook and personality. Upon returning to the States, Meyer photographed industrial films, girlie-magazine layouts, and occasionally worked on Hollywood productions, such as Guys and Dolls (1955) and Giant (1956). He directed a "nudie-cutie,"The Immoral Mr. Teas (1959), which dispensed with the usual conventions of nudist films and served up a ribald storyline and amazingly endowed women. The overwhelming success of Teas started Meyer on a prolific career in sexploitation films, with titles like Lorna (1964), Faster Pussycat! Kill! Kill! (1966), Cherry, Harry and Raquel (1969), Supervixens (1974), Up! (1976), and Beneath the Valley of the Ultravixens (1979), all characterized by a frenetic editing style, a predilection for big-breasted women, and liberal doses of rough violence.

The critical and commercial success of Vixen (1968) caught the attention of 20th Century-Fox execs, who signed Meyer to direct Beyond the Valley of the Dolls (1970, his biggest success, written by Roger Ebert) and his "straightest" project, The Seven Minutes (1971, a flop adapted from an Irving Wallace novel). Meyer's experiences with Fox soured the iconoclastic filmmaker on major studios, and he resumed the independent production and distribution of his own movies. The demise of the drive-in market and the emphasis on hard-core pornography (which Meyer always eschewed) effectively ended his directorial career, though he continues to promote and sell his product on video. He appeared as himself in a spoofy sequence of Amazon Women on the Moon (1987).

-From Leonard Maltin's Russ Meyer bio on IMDB

*swirly back-to-reality sequence*

Whoa, how trippy!

Russ Meyers was a man who gratuitously filled his films with big-boobed women. He normally casted women with unusually large breasts because he says, "I love big-breasted women with wasp waists. I love them with big cleavages."

People today call him an artist (particularly his long-time friend, screenwriter and now famous movie critic Roger Ebert -- see this link) and his work has inspired cult directors like John Waters and John Landis.

Now I don't mean to suggest big boobs=art, but I do think several people several here are way too conservative about such things. Lighten up, you tards. "Oh lordy, the objectification of women for no point whatsoever! I shall have to write a stern message on the AGS Forums!" Relax, take a deep breath and realise that it's no big deal. Realise that this is just another waffling debate in a series of unending AGS General Forum tirades that ultimately mean jack shit. Speaking of which, when is rharpe going to pop up and start prattling on about how Jesus is crying over those awful enormous titties?

This is just everyone doing their verbal wank for the day. In the end, it means nothing.

But you want to know what I find vulgar? This is vulgar: it's been revealed today that the Bush administration was warned on the highly destructive capabilities of Hurricane Katrina in a series of meetings with FEMA prior to the hurricane hitting. It's in a series of videos recently obtained by the Associated Press. Bush even says in the vids, "We are fully prepared."

Then, as you all know, he did nothing and later said that no one could have predicted the damage Katrina did.

Hear that: Bush was urgently warned about the hurricane, said his administration is fully prepared, spent several days after the hurricane hit with his thumb up his arse doing diddly-squat and said, "Whoa, didn't see that comin'!"

Meanwhile, New Orleans got creamed.

That's the real vulgarity of this world. That's what people should be debating right now. Where's that thread gone?

In fact, no. I find this more vulgar: the fact that people here would rather devote 6 pages to a cartoon boobies debate instead of something that actually makes a difference.

[Bernie]

Why, this thread is like Janet Jackson's boobie popping out yet again!

Personally, I don't care how big those boobies are. They don't cross the line of 'omg so vulgar and sexist!1' for me. I'd say have your boobies the way you want them. It is okay and won't keep me from playing the game. I'd probably not draw boobies that big for one of my games, but that's nothing you should worry about, CaptainBlinky.

Thanks for the entertaining discussion. It was fun to read.

[MrColossal]

I like how you pretend to swoop down and be the sole voice of reason in this thread DG and then tell everyone they are wasting their time because there was a hurricane a few months ago.

If your main addition to this thread is "Shut up and debate something that really matters." You have an AWFUL lot of threads you're going to have to hit up and tell people to shut up in...

[big brother]

Anyone who thinks it's vulgar needs to take a long nap and then wake up so I can slap them asleep again. Shut up all of you.

Titties aren't vulgar unto themselves.

Answer: They're pointless.

But so what?

Let me tell you a story about someone...

*swirly dream sequence*

This is even more pointless.

But you want to know what I find vulgar? This is vulgar: it's been revealed today that the Bush administration was warned on the highly destructive capabilities of Hurricane Katrina in a series of meetings with FEMA prior to the hurricane hitting. It's in a series of videos recently obtained by the Associated Press. Bush even says in the vids, "We are fully prepared."

Let's not even get into state versus federal jurisdictions.
Troll.

In fact, no. I find this more vulgar: the fact that people here would rather devote 6 pages to a cartoon boobies debate instead of something that actually makes a difference.

No debate in Gen Gen can actually make a difference.

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

DG, that was just a cheap way to turn an unrelated conversation into a political gen-gen crapfest, one that usually ends up with me acting like an asshole, and everyone else being pissed off at each other.  So you think that people don't care enough about something that happened?  Don't hyjack a thread in order to say your little political bullcrap.  Start a new one, or better yet, tell it to people in a place where it'll actually matter.  You wrote the rules in GenGen, i should think youd atleast know the etequitte.

ALSO:

No debate in Gen Gen can actually make a difference.

You kick ass.

[Kweepa]

Let's not even get into state versus federal jurisdictions.

Yes, let's not.
What has that got to do with Bush being told several times there could very well be flooding in New Orleans, then continuing his political fundraising tour and going biking in Crawford while the city was flooded, and then telling the press that no-one could have predicted the flooding?

Whee! Beautiful pillow-like clouds!

[CaptainBinky]

To be fair, I think all DG was trying to do was prove a point about the use of the term "vulgar". At the end of the day, English is blessed with many words, but if we use all the extreme ones up on something as rediculous as the proportions of someone's tits, then what have you got left to define seriously f**ked up shit like his example?

[big brother]

It's not like Gen Gen hasn't seen it's share of serious threads...the Stanley Williams execution, the Mohammed cartoons, etc.

Maybe this thread grew so fast because people are relieved it's only about boobs.

[MrColossal]

Then maybe what DG should have done is read this thread, the AG thread and OGSquinky's blog and see that only 1 person called the breasts vulgar. One person. I searched this thread and all the other ones for the word vulgar and I saw just about everyone saying "I wouldn't call them vulgar." "Gratuitous maybe, vulgar, no..."

So DG should have directed this rant to JohnPaterson on the AG forum since he's the one and only person who brought it up. You could make a case for saying that Snarky called them vulgar but only if you don't read his thread at all and just search for the word "vulgar".

Steve: The question is what has that got to do with the game "The Forgotten Element." Just because there's no need to talk about Katrina in this thread doesn't mean people are ignoring wrong doings commited by people in the response.

[Kweepa]

Never mind.

[Snarky]

*raises hand*

I said that the way her sex appeal is presented in the game (or, more accurately, the snippets we've seen) is vulgar. As in crude, unsophisticated, unsubtle, common. "Vulgar" and "offensive" do not mean the same thing, and although Bush's exploits may be reprehensible, I wouldn't call them "vulgar," exactly. (And I don't think "vulgar" is all that extreme, either.)

As I also said, there's nothing wrong with being vulgar if that's what you're trying to do. The masturbation jokes in 'The Great Stroke-Off' were vulgar, but that doesn't mean they weren't funny. If you're trying to do something serious, though, it's risky. There's a very real danger that you'll cheapen your game, and make it difficult for players to respond to the serious parts. Sure, great artists have peppered their masterpieces with vulgar elements, from Chaucer to Shakespeare to Joyce, but they were geniuses and knew what they were doing.

If you're doing a straight-faced game that just happens to star a big-titted woman in a "sexy nurse" outfit, you should at least be aware that what you're putting in is vulgar and a cliché, and make sure that you're doing it judiciously, for reasons that are important to your design.

[ManicMatt]

OR! Maybe her breasts have little hatches on them, and she opens them to contain all her inventory items!

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Now, the dilemma here is: does it objectivize women? Sure. If you are living in the sixties. If you are living in the twenty-first century, all I can say is: patronize much? Hell, the dirtiest-minded more sexually obsessed people I know are girls.

Nowadays feminism has been effectively replaced by post-feminism. A school of thought that considers openly sexual characters in fiction as empowering for women (as long as they are doing the ass kicking and/or the thinking, as opposed as being tied to a railroad waiting for the dashing hero to rescue them. That would be sexist no matter what they wear.)

Meh, even if men worship sexy women and treat them with utmost respect, the fact still remains that women face a lot more pressure to be beautiful than men do. Saying that feminism has now become completely irrelevant just because women are no longer forced to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, and that we should be perfectly satisfied with that and only that, is asinine.

OR! Maybe her breasts have little hatches on them, and she opens them to contain all her inventory items!

That would be awesome! But not as awesome as if they contained guns or bombs.

[Helm]

I'm too late, spent a day having drunkenly passed out after seeing the boring Brokeback Mountain. Oh well

a point:

muscular male protagonists and sexy female protagonists appeal to the same set of impulses in the viewer. Whether their muscularity/sexiness is justified plot-wise is a secondary issue. Both the strong, able male lead and the fuckable female lead serve to involve the viewer instinctually. Power and mating, what can I say? A man that is huge with bulging muscules objectifies the traits of the alpha male (violence, authority, control, safety) just like a woman who is sexy does the same for the traits humans OF BOTH SEXES attribute to the alpha female (willingless to mate, more or less! sorry, women! Talk to Darwin!). If someone has a problem with this, they should adress it on this level: the instinctual makeover of the human being, and the social constructions which support it. Talking about how big the boobs a girl has in an adventure game is  very politically correct, and as the whole political correctness movement has ably shown, it's excellent for making surface change and ignoring the root of the issues.