Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[TerranRich]

Okay. Let me get this straight. A female character cannot be believable if she has big breasts. That makes no sense. Girls with big breasts exist just as much as average-chested or flat-chested women do. I see nothing wrong with having an ample-bosomed female lead in an adventure game.

Those people on those forums really need to chill and stop being high-and-mighty about boobs.

Seriously.

[LimpingFish]

Okay. Let me get this straight. A female character cannot be believable if she has big breasts. That makes no sense.

Which, if we go back in time along this thread, was basically what I said.

What's with the discrimination against girls with large breasts. Are they a lesser form of woman? Did they have to trade-in their brains for their chests?

Is it "Womens Rights (but only for the right women)"?

[Adamski]

Did they have to trade-in their brains for their chests?

Shall we start with Katie Price and work our way down the list?

[LimpingFish]

No, she never had brains to begin with. 

[Raggit]

Is it "Womens Rights (but only for the right women)"?

I think it's womens rights for those who want to push the issue. Ã, I think some women are actually looking for something to scream "DISCRIMINATION" about.
But that just doesn't have the zest that it used to. Ã, Women have all the political rights that men have. Ã, If they're being discriminated against, in the workplace for instance, they can pick up the phone and get an attorney. Ã, 

I say that it's not discrimination if you're getting paid less than a man for the same job, it's discrimination if you're getting paid less and there's no laws protecting you. Ã, That's real discrimination.

I agree that certain women (not pointing fingers at anybody) are only making the issue worse by ranting on and on. Ã, In a sense, it's like they think they have to compete with men to PROVE their equality, and they don't really care how much trouble they have to stir up to do it. Ã, But all that EVER accomplishes is drawing lines and creating divisions which DOES create rifts.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

(blah blah blah)

I'll answer your questions after you answer mine. And as for sweeping statements, I did say "generally". I'm very well aware that such a statement does not apply to everyone; however, that does not negate the fact that such a generality does exist, and that I wish to explore such a generality.

(The women who think that women are being hypersensitive, on the other hand, might have more of a point...)

Well, that would be me so I guess I have a point.

MORE of a point, dear. MORE of a point.

My point anyway, is that I think I have a pretty good attitude to this stuff, but keep in mind that I'm a bisexual with a thing for large (but not TOO large) and shapely breasts so I'm not unbiased or without my own agenda here.

Well, there you go. I don't have a thing for breasts; in fact, I often feel that my own are an inconvenience to me. Hence, I can't possibly understand why people like them so much. Acknowledge that they do, yes, but not understand.

(blah blah blah)

EDIT: TIS, I like you so I'm not taking a stab at you with this, but just remember you aren't fighting the good fight for all of us. You aren't every woman, just as I'm not. Let people be people, and individuals be individuals.

Oh, I know that. I know that not all women think the same way just because we're women. I'm not even "fighting the good fight" anywhere on this forum or on the particular blog entry that I posted. I know all about how complaining about titties in an amateur adventure game and being all "BLAH BLAH BLAH OBJECTIFICATION OF WOMEN" about it is going to do absolutely nothing to help the status of women in games (and women as a whole). I know that there are better ways to direct my efforts, and I do so (supporting the encouragement of women to play and make more games being one such effort). If anyone actually bothered to read my blog post, you would already know that I am well aware that there are worse displays of blatant sexuality in the media, and that I was only focusing on this particular game because, well, it's an amateur adventure game, which I tend to care more about than other genres because I make them. (Besides, blogs like Game Girl Advance and Athena's Legacy already complain about gender issues in the more mainstream sorts of games as it is.) I also know that I have no right to stop people from making the kinds of games that they want, and that by complaining about the game, I'll probably contribute to making it infamously popular. I know that if I don't like what the game represents, then I shouldn't be playing it, end of story. (Admittedly, though, after all this hype, I might just end up downloading the demo just to see what all the fuss was about.)

The thing is, in case you haven't already noticed, I love to complain. It makes for fun discussions that probably wouldn't even come up if everyone just happily agreed to not complain about anything. And in these discussions, people, though not necessarily changing each other's minds, become motivated to think and communicate more clearly about their own opinions. Honestly, I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Anyway, now that that's all cleared up...

...you like me, do you? That's so sweet. It's not just because of my huge boobs, is it?

[LimpingFish]

(Admittedly, though, after all this hype, I might just end up downloading the demo just to see what all the fuss was about.)

Hype and fuss, that you, among others, actually gave birth to.

There was no fuss until somebody decided to we needed one.

Do you see what I'm saying?

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

Yes.

[LimpingFish]

Good.

[Kinoko]

Yes I like you ^_^ I have no idea what your boobs are like so it's not because of that. I like that you stand up for what you believe in, even if it's not what I agree with. I also like arguing, though I try to do it less than I did when I was a young whippersnapper when I really did start debates on anything, all the time, just for the sake of them. I also agree that these threads are not entirely without point because it does force people to think more deeply about the core of what they believe in, and to question themselves.

DG is right in that there are more important things we could be discussing, and that there should have been no fuss in the first place, but it happened, and I think we're all a little wiser and more open minded for it.

Now go and contribute to my 'things you do when you're bored' thread! Also, I want the last say so can we lock this now?

[Helm]

No we cannot lock this now. There's still pertinent discussion to be had about pie in this thread.

[Kinoko]

There is no discussion about pie. Everyone loves it and that's that.

[DGMacphee]

pie is george w bush's way of keeping the working man down blah blah blah and other political bullcrap

p.s. voice of reason, and the pretending to be of which.

[iamus]

I knew a man once.

A man with pie.



He always had a nice big smile.

[Erenan]

Pie Jesu?

[TheYak]

How about this for my main addition: "This thread is a huge waste of time." Most of the other threads that I you tell me I should "hit up" don't have seven pages devoted to whether cartoon boobs are important to plot.

That's one of the few things you stated that I disagree with.  When judging whether the general discussion topics are a waste of time, you target this thread while there are a good many below it that seem more a waste of time.  Eventually, these things all die off, but your comments exacerbate the debate rather than allow it to come to a creeping non-conclusion. 

As far as being proud of having higher-minded discussion, note that this thread initially focused on a particular set of pointy boobies and whether or not they were vulgar.  It later changed into a discussion about current social views, masculine identity, feminism and stereotypes.  Being one of the only issues discussed that will probably affect every person visiting the thread, it seems less a waste of time (by comparison) than discussing natural disasters or political situations that won't likely affect the participants.  That's not to say that the only issues that matter are those we're able to selfishly care about, but rather to challenge the idea that debates wherein all participants are third-party to the issue have automatically higher merit.

As far as feminism and sexual identity go, I don't believe that androgynous representation or its counterpart in the overtly sexual "liberated" female are the ideal goal.  Somewhere in the middle seems the likely compromise of female socio-evolution; a phase when women and men find their identity in themselves rather than based upon stereotypes common to half of the population.

I'm in general disagreement with both those who embrace the iconification of female attributes as well as those who attack it.  In female-driven cultures of past millennia, artisans of both genders exaggerated similar attributes in an attempt to exemplify the matronly aspects of the female form. 

While it's true that many men agree upon the desire for a top-heavy partner, females are still caging their own gender within the confines of their pre-determined ideals.  Aside from basic shapes and general hygiene, most men don't give a shit about the majority of preening and primping activities that females occupy themselves with.  Men often make idiotic statements about the other gender, but it's at least from an easily understandable source of motivation.  The most venomous and, likewise, most elaborate praise I've heard directed towards females has been from other females.  The idea that men determine stereotypical beauty is not only misguided, but counter-productive to the "progress" that women seem to strive for.

My girlfriend has implants.  Large chests aren't my thing, but thankfully they seem proportionate to her form.  I've got no qualms about her having had this modification: She says that previously she didn't feel feminine, and felt inadequate when comparing herself to other females.  She also says that because of them, she gets a lot more compliments as well as many more insults - primarily from other females.  Not knowing her at the time, but having seen pictures, I thought she was perfectly feminine and attractive without, but if this supports her self-esteem and gives her a more female self-image - I'm all for it.  She's also got a lot of "old-fashioned" ideals when it comes to male-female relationships, but ultimately portrays herself and weighs in with her viewpoints from her own perspective rather than one pre-determined by her classification within the female gender (something unfortunately uncommon among females I've befriended).

I guess I've got no real point, except that females too often forget that without their having taught us, men would have no bloody idea what X-Y-Z measurements were ideal. 

[Helm]

Exactly, the issue would be why your girlfriend felt the need to have implants. That motivation is so very difficult to examine thoroughly and -this is where it gets sticky- by examining it, by bringing all the aspects of societal programming to the fore one risks to damage critical aspects of one's personality as they partain to sexual identity. Is it worth the bother? Would a thorough examination of your girlfriend's sexual hang-ups and self-esteem really stand to help her become more 'liberated' or whatnot? Or would they implant (sorry) further guilt into mental procedures that could really do without? These things have a precious balance all of their own, and whereas I won't be the one to say that sexuality shouldn't be discussed and that we shouldn't be especially critical of the social ramifications of it all, in the end we ourselves are products of our environment and if somebody has come to find abnormally large boobs attractive, then that's what they find attractive!

[Raggit]

(blah blah blah)

I don't think that's really neccessary.

Anyway, to answer your questions...

I repeat myself, but, MY definition of getting hurt:Ã,  As I said before, it's no big deal to me until REAL discrimination arises.Ã,  If somebody thinks I'm garbage because my reproductive organs are external, THEIR the one who has the problem not me.Ã,  That's just their perspective.Ã,  However, when I'm told I can't get a job, or some other such variation, because of my gender, THAT'S a real problem.

The final goal of equality is unreachable.Ã,  It will never happen, worldwide, or even across one nation, or even a state.Ã,  Equality cannot exist in a world full of INDIVIDUALS.Ã,  In a world of billions of people, with billions of opinions, billions of philosophies, and billions of problems, we'll never see it all eye to eye.Ã,  At this point in time, equality is more of a state of mind than it is anything tangible.Ã,  The tangible part is already acheived.Ã, 
But that doesn't matter, we don't have to see it eye to eye.Ã,  As long as there is political justice, the ball is in your court.Ã,  You are an equal, you have to act like one.Ã,  So if you're so equal, quit talking about how wonderful your feminine traits are, because they're no better than my masculine traits.Ã,  We're entirely different, but we're still equals.Ã,  So lets drop it, if we're really equal.Ã, 

What are women going through today?Ã,  Nothing more than anybody else is having to go through.Ã, 

Inquisitive Traveler, (and everybody else while I'm at it,) I accept you rightly as my equal.Ã,  We both have equal potential and equal value.Ã,  I could never disregard another human just because of some unimportant difference like gender or race or whatever.Ã,  I accept you, no matter what.Ã,  You owe me the same, or else you are the one denying our equality.

[DGMacphee]

How about this for my main addition: "This thread is a huge waste of time." Most of the other threads that I you tell me I should "hit up" don't have seven pages devoted to whether cartoon boobs are important to plot.

That's one of the few things you stated that I disagree with.  When judging whether the general discussion topics are a waste of time, you target this thread while there are a good many below it that seem more a waste of time.  Eventually, these things all die off, but your comments exacerbate the debate rather than allow it to come to a creeping non-conclusion.

Yeah, but the difference is the discussion was up to six pages in two days when I posted! There aren't any other threads with that kind of jump in responses in such a short time.

And now it's up to eight! Also, most of the replies between pages 6-8 have nothing to do with my comments, so I don't think it's fair to say my comments have exacerbated the debate. I think it would have continued down the same wonky path whether or not I added my pretending-to-be-the-voice-of-reason rant.

My issue is how eager people are to hop on this thread in such a short amount of time. I was very happy to see people contribute to other long threads, like the Mohommad cartoons thread (one I didn't reply to because I had nothing much to contribute, my views were already discussed in detail by others. Also, I read that thread late, like this one.) or even something simple like the birthday thread. Not so much the Paul Harvey thread because arguing with rharpe was like trying to crack a coconut with your skull. And you'll notice I was trying to steer people away from the Paul Harvey thread too.

[Kinoko]

I don't think you need to have an issue with it though. It makes perfect sense that this thread has been so popular.

1) It's about a subject -everyone- has an opinion on. It's relevant to everyone.

2) It's indirectly about adventure games, and that's why we're all here.

3) A lot of the posts are by the same people getting into heated arguments. the thing with arguments like these is that the same 3 or 4 people fight with each other over misquotations and desperate attempts to have their points understood. Then, you have little posts here and there with people wanting to step in and clear things up. That leads to further misquotations as people start to generalise about the tone of the thread or because they put everyone into side A or B and this makes people who don't fully agree with people on their own "side" angry and they want to clarify their positions.