Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[MrColossal]

Okay. Let me get this straight. A female character cannot be believable if she has big breasts. That makes no sense. Girls with big breasts exist just as much as average-chested or flat-chested women do. I see nothing wrong with having an ample-bosomed female lead in an adventure game.

Those people on those forums really need to chill and stop being high-and-mighty about boobs.

Seriously.

Terran, let's say you were playing GTA3 and the main character was a 5 year old baby. You're running around shooting people and hijacking cars and dealing with the mob as a 5 year old. Do you think that the fact that the character is 5 years old would distract from the story to the point that it becomes something different?

This is the point of saying that a comically large breasted woman in a comically small nurses outfit being put in to what is described as a serious story will, in my and others opinion, distract and detract. The people who say that she may distract from the story aren't being high and mighty.

The creators of the game said that they wanted something fun to animate while she walked around and did stuff [bouncing breasts]. Let's say that they thought making her poop out of her butt while she walked would be fun to animate, do you think that would distract from a serious story?

"People don't walk around pooping all the time! There are big breasted women in real life!" and people don't get birthed from trees, yes. I'm not talking about real life, I'm talking about when telling a story one needs to take all elements into account or it may just fall flat on its face*.

Eric

*Luckily if she did fall over she'd be cushioned.

DG: Very good, this is a big pointless thread, then why did you post in it? Does the thread have a point now? Or are you now wasting your time when you should be starting threads about homeless people or something important.

[iamus]

Can't say much that hasn't already been said. Pretty much in agreement with Mr. Colossal.

It's fair enough that she has ridiculously ginormous breasts. It's maybe not an accurate cross-section of the female population but I'm sure there are plenty of women in the world with chests of a comparable size and I'm quite certain it has nothing to do with intelligence or ability.

Can you really get on board with an adventure game heroine (who by definition needs to be smart and aware of her environment) when she thinks it's a good idea to walk around a grey and overcast island in a microskirt and chest-handkerchief though? What nurses do you know? Christ, I'd be in A+E every second day of that was common NHS attire.

From what I've seen so far, she is completely at odds with almost everything else in the gameworld, like an airbrushed, versacci'd model catwalking through a scummy crack-house. That's going to present a big problem with player/character identification.

[Kinoko]

Good.

[Helm]

Pie.

[sergiocornaga]

Just add into the story that insane doctors operated on her and gave her implants. Or something. Then all of this will go away...

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Well, there you go. I don't have a thing for breasts; in fact, I often feel that my own are an inconvenience to me. Hence, I can't possibly understand why people like them so much. Acknowledge that they do, yes, but not understand.

I'm sorry you don't like your breasts, FemmeSquinky, and also that you don't understand why men find them to be quite nice.  Perhaps I can elucidate...Perhaps not, but let's have a stab, shall we?

Alright, imagine a nice, fluffy pillow...Now, depending on allergies and such, your favorite pillow might be a cotton pillow, an air pillow, or one of those fancy space-age spongy pillows that you can deform and will return to normal shape eventually.  Well, boobs to men are kind of like your favorite pillow; they're soft, comforting, and when you want to relax they're always there for you.  I could draw other strange parallels here, but the crux of my explanation is this:  boobs are soft and nice, and well gosh, men just like that sort of thing!  Of course, I could be crazy.  In fact, someone on irc today told me I was, but I will not sway on this boob issue; instead, I will end with a relevant Haiku.

Haikus about boobs,
comfort me like soft pillows,
Vulgar?  Hell no, n00bs!

[Alun]

1) It's about a subject -everyone- has an opinion on. It's relevant to everyone.

Actually, I don't have much of an opinion on it.  Which is why I haven't posted in this thread.  And I never will!  Wait...dang.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

So if you're so equal, quit talking about how wonderful your feminine traits are, because they're no better than my masculine traits.Ã,  We're entirely different, but we're still equals.Ã,  So lets drop it, if we're really equal.Ã, 

I never said anything about women being superior to men... now did I?

What are women going through today?Ã,  Nothing more than anybody else is having to go through.

Well, you may be right. I don't know; I have no idea what it's like to be a man. The fact of the matter is, women as a group ARE still experiencing a lot of problems that men couldn't even imagine. And so are many other minority groups. Hell, even rich white heterosexual men have their share of problems, I'm sure.

I just don't think we should neglect the problems that women face just because everyone else has problems too. Ã, I'm not saying that women's problems are more important to solve than everyone else's, though; we should try our best to find solutions to all problems.

On to your questions, then...

My views on equality are similar to yours - we do all have equal potential and equal value. We also have different insights and different personal experiences, which should be embraced.

My views on getting hurt, well, it sure is easier to describe hurt if it's tangible. When people ask "How are you being discriminated against?" they are more satisfied with an answer like "I am being paid less than men of equal station to mine at work." rather than "I often get flirtatious comments from my co-workers, and they make me feel uncomfortable." Also, it's easier to define getting hurt when you know that a specific person or group of people is deliberately causing you harm. In cases where people don't intend to hurt you (i.e. a man hitting on an attractive woman at work) and yet you don't appreciate their behaviour, it's a lot less clear-cut. If the woman complains, then the man protests "But I didn't do anything!" and accuses society of reverse discrimination. If the woman keeps her mouth shut, she'll continue to feel like a sex object in the workplace (which, in most cases, is inappropriate).

Many people here (and on the Muhammad Cartoons thread too, I noticed) have a very "if someone says something you don't like, you should ignore them, otherwise you're an overly-sensitive insecure idiot and it's your own fault, so tough luck" mentality. In the case that you have an otherwise happy life surrounded by caring friends and family and the insult is just a one-time thing, then yes, such thinking is justified. If, however, a person is given the same insults over and over again by many people, then sooner or later, without anyone to refute them, they start to believe it. They start to feel worthless and horrible about themselves, and it's not because they're stupid; it's because no evidence proves the contrary.

The problems that women face, hmm... Like I said, pressure to be sexy. I agree to an extent with Kinoko in that women should have the right to be as sexy as they want to be; however, what a person wants is often defined by what they have been raised by their environment to want. I feel like a freak for not caring much about my body and being sexy, because practically every other woman I know does. It's not that I have a negative body image or anything; it's that I don't understand why the concept of body image has to be so important in the first place. Quite frankly, it has no use in my eyes.

Men have issues with their bodies too, yes, but there is also a significantly greater percentage of men who don't care about looking sexy and are seen as socially-acceptable than women who feel the same. Why is it that in movies, when an ugly geek guy falls in love with a hot girl, he gets to remain ugly and geeky, whereas when the ugly geek girl falls in love with the hot guy, she has to get a makeover before anyone notices her? Why is it that Napoleon Dynamite can dance like a complete dork while girls who dance have to be graceful in doing so? Why is there not a Leisure Suit Larry-esque game with gender role reversal, where the woman picks up the hot guys? (Actually, wait... there was that text adventure LSL parody I made on my calculator back in high school, which starred a bunch of friends of mine. Never mind.) And the question I asked before: why are naked men generally seen as funny, while naked women are generally seen as OMGSEXY?

Also, let's not forget how women are constantly getting pressured to find a husband/boyfriend, whereas men are often praised for being bachelors.

There's so much more I could say, but I'm getting tired, and I think I'm rambling. I hope I'm making at least an inkling of sense, though.

[Timosity]

[Nikolas]

WOW Sexy!

Now, I was trying to stay out of this trhead, by only posting silly little posts, but I can't take it anymore...

So sily, so, so, so sily.

I can only think of one reason why someone would have a problem with these lovely breasts (I'm talking about the nurse and not Marge). Envy!

Sorry!

[Erenan]

Now, wait just one minute there, Inquisitive Stranger! Napoleon Dynamite is a fantastic dancer!

While we're on dorks in movies, I've often found the nerdy girls attractive before they get a makeover.

Many people here (and on the Muhammad Cartoons thread too, I noticed) have a very "if someone says something you don't like, you should ignore them, otherwise you're an overly-sensitive insecure idiot and it's your own fault, so tough luck" mentality.

It's easy to make someone else's mentality sound bad when you summarize it into a concise little quote like that. But generally people's mentalities are slightly more complicated. When it comes to the Muhammad cartoons, people did overreact. At least, they certainly took their anger out in the wrong ways. But yes, I think you're right about those insults being repeated a lot. When you hear something too much, it's easy to start believing it, and ignoring it won't always work.

[modgeulator]

Let's all just agree he should redraw the character with smaller breasts

Spoiler

and make her topless.

[close]

[Andail]

It's quite interesting that some people try make this a non-topic. As if it was all about discriminating large-breasted women for no reason at all. Grow up.

Every topic of a debate can after a while be accused of being blown out of proportion, but some debates still have a very important nucleus.

Young girls (and boys also, naturally) cut themselves with razors because they don't fit in the perfect image. They purchase fake body parts to fit in. They get depressed for years and kill themselves.
Stupid people design the perfect image, frustrated, immature, superficial people define what the perfect image is like, and they spread it everywhere.
Do you think that small things don't matter? Well, every little image, symbol, icon, road sign, avatar, they all matter. They all build up to a culture.

This is not about personal preferences. I bet the artists behind the 3D-models of wasp-waisted, balloon-breasted semi-nude creatures referred to as females have hardly been in the same room as a topless woman.
It's not about my personal preferences; they change according to my last encounter. I've been with large-breasted women and preferred that for some time, and I've been with completely flat women and found that kind of sexy in its own way.

The day people in games, magazines and movies resemble real people, I'll rest my case.

[CaptainBinky]

I'm much more concerned that pop bands such as the Spice Girls market a so-called aspirational look of sex appeal and gratuity to young girls of 7 to 13 years old. How many times have you seen children dressed is "adult" clothing? This is an appalling state of society. At the end of the day, our character is not representative of the real world. She is drawn in pixels, in a non-realistic style, and lives in a fantasy environment in a game that will be played by a reletively small number of people who are mainly (although hopefully not exclusively) male.

As for the humourous responses offering help with the sprite... Thanks and all, but I'm afraid she's mostly finished now.

[Kinoko]

Andail - So what, you want all images of people to be realistic?

Young girls (and boys also, naturally) cut themselves with razors because they don't fit in the perfect image. They purchase fake body parts to fit in. They get depressed for years and kill themselves.

And if we abolish unrealistic images in the media, do you think that will change? People will always like some people more than others. Even if physical beauty is no longer a concern, maybe we'll start desiring the people with the cleanest teeth. But some people will always have cleaner teeth than others. Or what if we start desiring people with the best minds? Some people will always have better minds than others. Will girls be cutting themselves because they can't make themselves as smart as that other girl over there that the guys like?

These 'unrealistic' images are there because people like certain traits in others. A lot of people happen to like big breasts, for example (off the top of my head), so it's only natural people start exagerrating these traits in cartoon and whatnot. It happens with any kind of trait that stands out, even hated ones. Take politicians or caricatures as an example. It's been happening as soon as man was able to pick up a stick and draw a picture in the dirt.

If your problem isn't with people drawing girls with exagerated appendages, and is instead with "unrealisticly beautiful" people in the media, then are you saying we need some kind of quota to make sure beautiful people are kept in check with a good number of dowdy people?

If not either of these, please explain to me what you think ought to happen.

Stupid people design the perfect image, frustrated, immature, superficial people define what the perfect image is like, and they spread it everywhere.

So you've never had a discussion with your mates about whether a blonde, brunette or red head is better? If some guy told you he liked red heads best, do you think that would stop him falling in love with an amazing brunette he met?

I have about 50 "perfect images" of people in my head, and I redefine them all the time, but I do like to have a crack at defining them. I find that it's one of the joys of drawing, is being able to produce what I think is a really beautiful girl. It doesn't -mean- anything, and it doesn't make one lick of difference to who I find attractive in real life.

If I'm stupid, frustrated and immature, then so be it, but I'd rather be that than so insecure with my life that I was afraid to objectify people, enjoy sexuality, enjoy idealisation and enjoy light-hearted jokes and discussions without thinking the world was gonna end.

EDIT: I'm not saying you are those things, Andail. But I reckon some people are.

[modgeulator]

Ok well I'm pretty much just a lurker here and I'm sure I'll draw some wrath for this. But I have noticed something about Andail: many of his posts tend to end with him boasting, in a thinly veiled manner, about his past sexual conquests. I also love the way he just criticized stereotypes portrayed in the media for the damage they do, then a few sentences later he's off attacking those geeky nerd boys who'll never get their hands on a real woman. I wonder how much damage that tired old cliche has done in its day?

And really I think you should let the little things go. Worry about the underlying culture by all means but pick the right major cultural icons to concern yourself about. If you're going to fly off the handle every time some guy draws a picture of a girl with big boobs you're just going to make yourself look like a gibbering loon. That's just my opinion.

[Nacho]

He does not boast. He just types the truth. Women just run to rendevouz with him. I even had to stop Lorena.

Even I feel attracted a bit. You can't imagine how attractive Petter is.

EDIT: But Helm is even more sexy...

[modgeulator]

He does not boast. He just types the truth. Women just run to rendevouz with him. I even had to stop Lorena.

Even I feel attracted a bit. You can't imagine how attractive Petter is.

As long as this attraction isn't based on any cultural stereotype of what you are "supposed" to find attractive that has caused many people who don't conform to mutilate and kill themselves then I am fine with that. 

[Nacho]

He is beauty jsut by natural effects. I can even add more! If he enters in a surgery room to remove the two spare nipples he would loss attractive. It would be like shaving Helm's butt, you know?

[Raggit]

I never said anything about women being superior to men... now did I?

Well, you may be right. I don't know; I have no idea what it's like to be a man. The fact of the matter is, women as a group ARE still experiencing a lot of problems that men couldn't even imagine. And so are many other minority groups. Hell, even rich white heterosexual men have their share of problems, I'm sure.

Just give us men a chance to try and understand.Ã,  Ã, You keep saying that women are experiencing these problems, but you're not citing anything that is not uncommon, or unique just to women.Ã,  Men suffer sexual harrasment too, domestic violence is about fifty/fifty now, with little less than half of domestic violence being perpetrated against men by women.Ã,  Men are now a minority in colleges, and boys are falling behind girls in school.Ã,  Women have numerous hotlines and organizations that will assist them if they're being discriminated against.

I can't honestly say that women have it all that bad.Ã,  It's probably as good as it's ever going to get for ANY of us.

I just don't think we should neglect the problems that women face just because everyone else has problems too. Ã, I'm not saying that women's problems are more important to solve than everyone else's, though; we should try our best to find solutions to all problems.

I agree wholeheartedly.Ã,  I don't think that problems are being neglected, but as I said before, they're not going to be eliminated.Ã,  But we at least have to have damage control, and I think that's what all those phone numbers and government offices are for.Ã,  If you're experiencing sexual harrasment, report it.

As far as pressure to be sexy, don't let anybody tell you that you HAVE to be sexy.Ã,  Just be who you are, and the nicer guys will notice that.