Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[Alun]

I think they gave it, but it I'm to lazy to scroll back through the tread.

They did indeed.  lo_res_man, they've already answered your question:

Firstly, concerning stylistic implications - I have absolutely no intentions to modify the style of this character. While I appreciate everybody's opinions, decisions over style will be made by me and Lemmy. If I wanted critques, I would have posted the images in the critics lounge. If we were to adopt this approach to all the art in the game, then we'd never finish

What I was interested in was whether the image constitued being "vulgar" since if this was the case, then we may have had to re-think the graphics since it would have implications over uploading screenshots on other forums - we've already had issues on one site due to the large proportion on under 13 year olds who read it.

Not that I'm necessarily saying people shouldn't have shared their opinions, etc., but as far as the authors' intentions, they've already explained that, and yes, they apparently did "mean to be that literal".

[lo_res_man]

Ok, my thanx Alun. They don't want to change it, people disagree, fine. They are the authors, and it is there choice. but LimpingFish, IMHO it is still no reason to fly off the handle like that. Its just a game. Now can we shake hands and make up ,and as I said much earlier, "agree to disagree"?

[LimpingFish]

Sure  .

[lemmy101]

Christ, really? Man, it's doomed to stand out against all those other AGS games that are rich with fully-rounded and diverse characters, whose many layers of emotional depth continue to teach us how futile human existence really is.

It's not about a character having the same emotional depth as a human, it's about a character being believable in the narrative.

Nobody's opinion holds more validity than the next man's.

Some opinions are more useful. All you seem to be doing is rehashing the same old "everyone's stupid for making this an issue/Objectification doesn't bother me". I think we get where you stand.

Just because I don't care

If you don't care, you should shut the fuck up.

If you do decide to keep posting here, you obviously care.

'it isn't easy being the best'  do you have any idea how arrogant you come across? we never asked you to dissect our story. we post a picture out of context. people complain. we post the context even though we really didn't want to, just to show where we're coming from. people complain. then squinky starts dredging up old posts out of context and not in the manner they were intended. are we selling this game? do we deserve this? We've spent practically every second of our free time on this. we found this community and was so inspired by cj's commitment to this cause we wanted to make our own contribution. making a game that will probably take a year or two and giving it away. writing plugins
we were intending to release. we were even going to release all our art assets once the game was done so others could use them. what are were we asking in return? a bit of support. That's it.. we thought this was supposed to be a community where everyone would appreciate any contribution even if it wasn't their cup of tea. then we post a sodding picture of a woman with cleavage out and people are making judgements on us as people? calling up adolesants. That's not on. at all! limping fish you're bang on. big brother is more offensive than a pair of breasts could ever be. sorry about the long paragraph and bad grammar as i'm typing on my phone. too angry to wait till i have net access tomorrow. i speak for myself. this doesn't necessarily reflect the views of binky

[MrColossal]

Why not go back and read all the comments you ever got on the game posting you made and then the ones that you think are criticising you or the story or what have you. I bet there are more posts in support of the game than there are against the game. In fact I still believe that there is 1 person who is completely against the game and that person isn't even on these forums...

It's easy to take any negative comment and discard all the positive or neutral comments even though you have gotten much more of those.

[Mordalles]

hehe, i also think the "it's not easy being the best" is a bit arrogant. i was really surprised to see that.

[Kinoko]

Not trying to drag him into this again, but I agree with LimpingFish. I don't care if people don't like the game, and we're all free to give our opinions. I just get angry when people say a game -should- be a certain way, or when people make value judgements on the creators for drawing a pair of boobs, or anyone else for that matter (which is why I got fired up over your post, Andail, because I could very well be considered one of the people doing that whole "creating the image of the ideal woman" thing).

Let's not fight over whether we have a right to give opinions or opinions on opinions or not...

My personal opinion is that people should try to be more understanding of things like this. Just because you don't like it, that doesn't make it wrong. There are many ways to live in this world. I'm learning this more and more everyday.

Mordalles: Noone's ever gonna let you forget that thread, I think ^_^

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

I will not be understanding just for the sake of being understanding. My opinions still stand, and I'm not going to change them. I'm sorry that I find the appreciation of huge boobs to be so adolescent in nature, but I do. I can't help it. No one has ever given me a reasonable justification otherwise.

I do however, understand that it's difficult to receive criticism, especially after you've poured your heart and soul into a project. My game's undergoing beta testing at the moment, and it's certainly had its share of points criticized. In fact, I anticipate that there will be some bad reviews on adventure development sites once it's released to the public. I won't pretend that they won't hurt me; they will. But such is life. You just have to realise that you can't please everyone all the time.

[Kinoko]

Oh, damn! lo_res_man, you got the 300th post >_< My record is soiled! *sigh* If I hadn't been so careless as to sleep last night...

TIS: If your opinions still stand, then they still stand. You can't pretend to feel a way that you don't. I know you probably didn't mean it in this way, but I think it's nice not the have the stance that you won't change them though.

Also, it's probably true that noone has given you a reasonable justification for it. Probably because there isn't one, I don't know. People like them. It's probably difficult to understand that when you don't. I don't like ... (gimme a minute)...Ã,  (thinking...) ... aha! I don't like G-strings myself, but I understand that people do. I don't think they're being adolesent, I just think they happen to like them. They aren't trying to, they just do. So I can't have a problem with that, they aren't doing it on purpose. And it's not like it's wrong, it's just something I don't appreciate myself (in fact, I think they look awful).

Who knows though, maybe next week I'll suddenly like them! I used to hate pumpkin and mushrooms when I was a kid and now they're my favourite foods. That said, I've always hated licorice and I still do. That may change, it might not.

I understand disliking understanding for the sake of understanding, but I think it can be for the sake of peace too (not... world peace as such). I've found that as I've gotten older, things I used to hate and find wrong with the world, I can now accept as a part of it and I'm much happier and tolerant of other people for it. I used to have an idea in my head of a kind of "Utopia" but not anymore. I really only have broad ideas about an ideal way of living as far as things like the Environment are concerned. And they're very, very broad.

[Helm]

I've read the bit of backstory that is the setup of your game. I'm pretty sure it will make for funny and/or thought provoking situation in places. It *does* seem as if during this thread, whereas initially the artist for this project said stuff along the lines 'well I like boobs so this is why I animate boobs, lol!' now it's more of the 'oh just wait, there is a reason for the boobs and the outfit and and' which does seem supicious. Also may I just be the first to guess you've constructed an elaborate eugenic backstory for the main character which would explain why she is built like she is. In a lab, or something? Well... anyway, the fact of the matter is, regardless of whether it always were there, now you say there's a story that - I find interesting, at least - to back up the boobs. This is good, in my opinion.

Of course it creates issues about how a very intelligent and resourceful woman would desire to walk around in an outfit that barely covers her (not due to shame, but due to exposure to the elements. She's barefoot in a forest in the first gameplay screen you posted). One could say 'bah, helm, you're going too deep with the premise!'. No, no I'm not. This is the first, very shallow question that comes to mind: why barefoot, why not wearing a jacket and a pair of pants to protect from the cold? If I were the main character in this adventure game, I'd look for pants and boots pronto. That is, right after quitting everything else and inspecting my female physique off-screen for a prolonged... duration...

[Las Naranjas]

The only boots and jacket in the game are behind a door guarded by a man who wants a pinecone. So you need to get him a pinecone. It's an adventure game.

[Helm]

So let's say this main character goes around the whole game (re)questing for a fine leather jacket-pants-boots-validation for her existence aside from being an excuse for cheap T&A, yet never getting any such. Fine, that'd be both funny (until it grew old) and playing on both preconcieved notions about (adventure) computer games, and validating them to degrees.

Still, to take it a bit further, a smart person would steal clothes that fit her if given the chance, and regardless of shame would instinctively go for clothes that cover herself because we have biological memory that urges us to seek protection from the elements... I'm not making this up, it's true, people like to not be cold all the time.

Basically, it's an adventure game, sure. It doesn't have to be a silly adventure game full of adventure-game-things, though.

[Kinoko]

If it wasn't too cold and I had a body like hers, I'd kinda want to walk around wearing a tiny nurses uniform too.

[Alun]

I'm not making this up, it's true, people like to not be cold all the time.

Hey, speak for yourself; if it weren't for the social issues involved I'd like to go around naked pretty much all the time.  Then again, I don't get cold easy, and I live in Southern California, where it never really gets cold anyway, so...

[Helm]

If it wasn't too cold and I had a body like hers, I'd kinda want to walk around wearing a tiny nurses uniform too.

No, no you wouldn't. The idea appeals to you, but you wouldn't. A smart person realizes the practicality of clothing over skin pretty soon. I walk around semi-naked around the house all the time, weather-allowing or not, but I am not very smart, and I catch colds all the time. And even a silly person like me never goes hicking in the woods barefoot.

[Alun]

Er...you realize there are such people as nudists, who do go naked for long periods of time, including outdoors, and do perfectly fine, right?  I'm not trying to convert people to nudism or anything (I'm certainly not a nudist myself, due to the aforementioned social issues), but clothing isn't the health necessity you're making it out to be.

[CaptainBinky]

I can't imagine a female character who is extremely intelligent, yet unable to understand others' preferences (and exploit them). This character sounds too much like an artificial construct to be human, and I doubt the player will be able to relate to her.

Oh for crying out loud. Most of the people on this thread have been positive, critical, but at least sensible about their opinions and reasons for liking / disliking the various off topic discussions on this thread. But this kind of arrogant "I'm better than you" dissassembly about our narrative, character choices, style, story, etc really gets up my nose. Exactly what justification do you have of making these kinds of dissmissive sweeping statements? People asked for our justifications of the character. We provided information that we were saving for a preview we have lined up in April. It is obviously not the full story, but it goes to prove that we have at least thought about the characters and story. Is it really too much to ask that you consider that it's just possible that the missing information may actually tie everything up? Or are you assuming that because you are "the best" that nobody else could possibly have come up with a nice tidy story that wraps everything up neatly?

And you know what? So what if we had just made this game as an excuse to get big breasts and a small nurse's outfit into the game. All we're trying to achieve here is add another game to the pot of amateur adventure games available FOR FREE on AGS. For the community by the community. We should be supportive of each and every game here - we all have jobs, there are other things we could be doing with our spare time.

I mean, Jesus Christ, there are some sprites in the Critics Lounge called "seducement animation". But again, who cares? Good luck to the bloke. Ideally, there'd be a game here for every potential demographic of game player - that way we could spread the word of AGS to the maximum possible number of people.

So like the game, don't like the game - see if I care, but don't come over all high and mighty because you regard yourself to be better than the rest of us.

Rant over.

[CaptainBinky]

Oh and...

whereas initially the artist for this project said stuff along the lines 'well I like boobs so this is why I animate boobs, lol!' now it's more of the 'oh just wait, there is a reason for the boobs and the outfit and and' which does seem supicious.

The stuff I said originally was said in jest as response to other people talking in jest. It was never relevant at the time to go into the actual details of the story, because nobody had an issue with it at the time.

[lemmy101]

I've read the bit of backstory that is the setup of your game. I'm pretty sure it will make for funny and/or thought provoking situation in places. It *does* seem as if during this thread, whereas initially the artist for this project said stuff along the lines 'well I like boobs so this is why I animate boobs, lol!' now it's more of the 'oh just wait, there is a reason for the boobs and the outfit and and' which does seem supicious.

Post on Squinky's forum before this thread even started:
"At the end of the day, this is a fantasy game. And her particular look is justified somewhat within the game. As is the nurse's uniform."

Posts on this thread, all within a two days of it starting (and we only get to post during the day as neither of us have net access out of work)

" @MrColossal:
To clarify, ther is no particular reason why her boobs should be that exact size other than personal taste. There is a perfectly valid reason why she should be attractive, and in my efforts to draw "attractive" (to me, at least), I drew her with big boobs, so there is a "sort of" justification for them. We also wanted her to look different from the other female characters in the game. And the nurse's uniform is completely justified even though we could conceivably had made it a little larger."

"This has all been most interesting (and quite amusing). I'm afraid I may have confused things a little with my rather contradictory points on why she looks like that and how much/little this has to do with the story. This is basically because we've been trying to tread a line between how much of the story to give away and how much we justify the character."

"At the end of the day, we posted the screenshots when we had two final screenshots to show (the forum minimum). One of them just happened to be the main character, obviously a high priority on things to draw first, who happened to be somewhat "controversial", without the context to justify it. We didn't really consider the impact it would have, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't quite pleased with the interest it has generated. Smiley"

So where are these "lol boobzzz!!!!!!:D:D:D" comments?

If you're refering to the animating comments in the FE thread, jesums! I bet anyone could dredge up an old post against anyone to use against them. Everyone says stuff in jest. We were pleased to get our first comments about the game, we might have been more pleased if they were all saying "lovely art and interesting sounding story", but complimenting the boobs is still complimenting Binky's art. What do you suggest we said instead? "No, piss off! If you're only interested in the boobs we don't want you to download our game, pervert!"

See this is the problem, I don't think you even understand what objectification means. Or at least should mean in a society where people don't overreact over every little thing that might rub them up the wrong way, at least. We like boobs. So shoot us! Does liking boobs automatically make you a chauvanistic pig? Of course not, that's complete idiocy. Binky and myself were pleased that the art was evidently sound enough for people to make comments about her being "hot" and "having nice boobs". After all a blocky scribbly mess would not have attracted that attention, so we saw it as a compliment to Binky's art.

So what if Binky "enjoyed doing that particular animation"? Does enjoying doing an animation of a woman with boobs make someone a sexist idiot who would not give a better qualified woman a job over a man? Would someone who liked the idea of having a large breasted woman in a game automatically be the sort of person to make leud comments to a single mother on a train, or have a relationship with a woman purely because she has big breasts? No. Stop making judgements on what our motives are. Making assumptions and sullying our personalities on account of a 320x200 picture that, as we've stated REPEATEDLY, we have fully justified in the game. The WHOLE REASON WE POSTED THAT INFORMATION was because people were complaining that we were defending ourselves by saying "there is a reason" but not divulging it. So we post our reason, then you start picking holes in that, or accuse us of... well I can only imagine you're accusing us of changing our argument in the course of this thread. So add accusing us of being so fickle that we'd change a complete story, all the dialogue and overall theme of the game on account of a few people's disagreements about our motives? Thanks! All that hard work rewarded then.

How about we just post a screen by screen account of the whole damn game, will that allay your concerns about the sick perverts that have evidently joined your site? Or about the swizz cheese idiot story we've evidently constructed, because you can't see the whole picture from carefully divulged information. Better still, when it's done we can even download it for you and play it through. Sod it, we'll even review it! 9/10 It's great! There, you never even have to concern yourself with it again.

And if Squinky did get that seriously offended by our jokey comments on the FE thread that she went to the trouble of blogging about it, then I sincerely pity her. How she gets through life without being offended on a minute by minute basis is beyond me. It must make life a genuinely miserable experience... oh hang on a minute!

"I'm just going to smugly smirk at the fact that I made Gertrude Zzyrgenhymer completely flat-chested, and that the character wearing the least clothing in TGTTPOACS just so happens to be male."

You sexist bitch! How DARE you belittle our gender!

"All hypocrisy in my original post, by the way, was intentional and meant to be tongue-in-cheek. "

Oh that's alright then, you were joking Squinky, you are forgiven....

Hang on!!!! Anyone see the irony here?

This is f**king ridiculous.

[Helm]

I don't see how big brother is coming off high and mighty. We're discussing what we think is relevant to discuss. I agree with big brother that the premise is thin; it doesn't stop me from possibly enjoying your game when it's done and out, but it's thin, what can we say? Leasure Suit Larry games have ranged from paper-thin to cardboard-thin in 20 years or something. They've got their audience, they HAVE once or twice touched upon interesting subjects that people would consider outside their range, it's all good. Doesn't mean everyone's cut out for a larry game, and it doesn't mean those that are not cannot criticize them for what they are.

And you know what? So what if we had just made this game as an excuse to get big breasts and a small nurse's outfit into the game.

If this IS or WAS the case, that's fine as far as I'm concerned. But it doesn't mean we cannot scrutinize it and be critical of it and all that goes with open discussion on the internet! We are not stopping you from making the game, we are not stopping you from arguing about it, MOST people here probably will download, play, and enjoy your game regardless of the discussion. So what's the problem? Just as long as we get the facts straight about your intention (you guys are the ones that have us talking about your intention, it didn't start off on it's own) then various opinions will always be ok.

All we're trying to achieve here is add another game to the pot of amateur adventure games available FOR FREE on AGS. For the community by the community. We should be supportive of each and every game here - we all have jobs, there are other things we could be doing with our spare time.

You misunderstand the concept of support. Support, for a free product such as your game, when it's done, entails people downloading, playing and if they like, spreading the word about it if they feel like it, and also telling you guys they liked it. This will happen of course. Support does NOT entail hushing out negative opinion about your game, nor does it entail blind acceptance of all aspects of it. If you guys can't deal with discussion on the game, then don't ask us to discuss it! Does this seem vulgar to me? No. But here are my thoughts about it. Does this seem vulgar to the other person? Yes. Here are her thoughts about it. Does it seem vulgar to third person? Third person finds the question wrong, here are his thoughts about it. This is how it goes.

So relax, don't attack big brother for having an opinion, and don't construe this discussion as either condemnation OR support for your game.

EDIT:

wow, don't 'pity' Squinky either, if you will. Seriously, relax, guys.