Would you really define this as "vulgar"?

[MrColossal]

Or... It's a joke... Light hearted humourous statement? That's not a possible justification?

[CaptainBinky]

Or... It's a joke... Light hearted humourous statement? That's not a possible justification?

...if they were shit, yes. It'd be genius.

However, I think I need to stop here. I've been complaining for ages that this thread constituted an attack on me and Lemmy, and now it's turning into an attack on Herculean Effort - and I'm a part of it.

This is extremely hypocritical, and I sincerely appologise.

[MrColossal]

Ah, hypocritical! That's what I was aiming for! You're making assumptions based on no information for the Herculean Effort tagline. Kinda like some thread I read recently! If I used emoticons this is where a smiley would go.

I'm very much glad you realize this because I didn't want this thread to go on for another 300 pages, however I'm sure when BB comes in to defend himself it will!

However I still disagree with you completely that one can't have talent and also make jokes unless they are self deprecating.

[big brother]

Yeah, the whole tone of our site is deathly serious... I don't see how anyone could see anything on that site as not being in earnest. A purposeful overstatement, what's that?

I bet you would complain about Maddox's website being labeled the "best in the universe", too.

Legally, superlatives like "best" do not have to be defended, since they're nonspecific. "Better", on the other hand, requires proof. Look at some of the slogans for local businesses in the yellow pages. Is it possible that more than one Italian restaurant can be "the best"?

So the HEP site is crappy, and our games are hopelessly outdated (and probably flawed) made by two amateurs (at the time) using a free engine and free graphics software. If you honestly interpret that slogan as us thinking we are "TEH BEST GAM3 MAKERZ IN TEH GALAXY", then

you are a douchebag.

Now let's stop talking about a stupid little tagline and focus on the real issue of importance: pixelated boobies and scanty nurse outfits. Demeaning to women or just gratuitous? Discuss amongst yourselves.

EDIT: Hahahaha, Eric. Totally called me. Damn.

[CaptainBinky]

From a global perspective, regarding all games ever made you are right.

However, you can't deny that the games that Herculean Effort have made are some of the nicest and most polished available on AGS. So it's the tagline in combination with that fact that the problem sets in. It just comes across wrong - in much the same way as my pixellated boobs do to you.

So I guess we're both hypocritical. But that was a compliment. Hello Big Brother, nice to meet you.

Er, I think I said I'd shut up now. I lied. But I will now

EDIT: Er, I don't actually have pixellated boobs. That'd be weird. I meant the picture.

[The Inquisitive Stranger]

That's okay. All posts forgiven. Please forgive me too

Will do.

[Pesty]

However, you can't deny that the games that Herculean Effort have made are some of the nicest and most polished available on AGS. So it's the tagline in combination with that fact that the problem sets in. It just comes across wrong - in much the same way as my pixellated boobs do to you.

This sounds to me like it's less bb and geoff's problem and more a problem with yourself (and I'm addressing everyone who has a problem with their tagline, not just you). You see them as very talented people who made some nice games and so their tagline reflects arrogance because you assume they feel the same way about their games and skills as you do, when in reality I'm sure they don't think of themselves the same way at all. I highly doubt that they think of themselves as "the best", no matter if that's the best game makers in the universe or even just the best amateur adventure game makers.

Whether you take it that way or not, their tag line is a joke. It's self depreciating Ã, humor in a round-about way. Calling themselves "the best" makes it obvious that it's a joke and they do not, in fact, consider themselves the best.

Oh no, my post seems useful. I'd better remedy this:

EVERYBODY SHUT YOUR FAT FACES I'M SICK OF SEEING THIS THREAD.

[skyfire2]

EVERYBODY SHUT YOUR FAT FACES I'M SICK OF SEEING THIS THREAD.

but this argument has not been won by binky, whom techically has already won. so i think that it's you whom should shut your pudgy face. HAHA!!!!! BOOBS PWNZERS!

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Did you just say Boob Panzers?  If so, I need to see a game with Boob Panzers IMMEDIATELY.

[Mordalles]

their tag line is a joke.

hahahahaahahahahahahaha.

[skyfire2]

binky, i have a question. how long did it take for you to get the breasts just right?

[Gregjazz]

Hello sir. Before I say anything else, I'd just like to say that I think you're great. I've never seen you post anything that I haven't agreed with, or thought was arrogant or belittleing.

I'm flattered.

Though I usually try to steer clear of "debates" such as these, so I'm not sure there's much I post that could be "disagreed with" (unless you wish to disagree with tune entries, which I guess is valid).

I presume that you and Big Brother are related purely because of the "Big Brother" moniker and the co-working on your various projects (which I also think are great). I have an older brother and will leap to his defense if anybody, ANYBODY, critised him so (assuming the previous bit was accurate) I know where you're coming from.

This is true. Keep in mind that I've lived with Ian for most of my life, so I know him fairly well. He's a really nice guy. He bought me Broken Sword 1 for Christmas. He's patient when I'm lazy in working on games.

I understand how some of you could get a bad impression from some of his posts. But I get more of a sense of frustration rather than arrogance. I dunno, it's difficult to explain.

I don't think you are arrogant, but I think "it's not easy being the best" is. I have a hard time relating that strapline to your personality. They seem mutually exclusive. Please don't read any of my posts as an attack on you (although they may indirectly be via your connection to big brother and for that I appologise).

I honestly don't think that the strapline "it's not easy being the best" was intended to be taken seriously, just as it was not created in seriousness. I think the main point of the strapline was to have the "it's not easy", which is a reference to the "herculean effort", which is a reference to the whole Hercules holding up the earth in place of Atlas thing.

"ONE STOP" for all things multimedia."

Implies that there are lots of goodies on the site

"It's not easy being the best"

Is impossible to take as anything other than arrogant. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Yes there's a big difference.

But I think you're familiar with some other slogans with similar "attitudes." Like:

"The best a man can get" (Gillette razors)
"The Best never rest." (Ford Trucks)
"The Best Built Cars In The World" (Toyota) -- wooh, that puts our strapline to shame!
"America's Best Record" (Puritan Records)

Not to mention those cliched rural straplines saying something like "so-an-so's, the best cookies west of the Mississippi River"

The context of the game is not sufficiently known to possibly make that assumption.

Ah...

I'm not sure how to say this, but I get the impression that some people will play the game just because of the main character.

Unless the game is supposed to be LSL-like (which it could for all I know), I'm unsure how the game could be taken seriously.

[Helm]

"The best a man can get" (Gillette razors)
"The Best never rest." (Ford Trucks)
"The Best Built Cars In The World" (Toyota) -- wooh, that puts our strapline to shame!
"America's Best Record" (Puritan Records)

Without heavying up the thread too much, a small point: this is exactly the sort of marketing approach AGS games DO NOT have to go with. Ford aren't doing this for fun. This is memetic terrorism. These taglines are repeated enough times, not because they're valid or invalid, that is inconsequential. They are repeated as much as possible just so they can be ingrained in the collective subconsciousness of the buying public by large. And not even because this will lead to better sales (although that's still the end goal) but because in such a way, they can be considered part of relevant pop culture. And a company, such a Pepsi or Nike, when it achieves that, when when people think of 'carbonated soda' or 'athletic ware' respectively they think their name, their logo, their tagline, such a company never dies. This is the point. You shouldn't, even in passing joviality adhere to this marketing attitude. A wonderful example of someone that has done a joke on the 'best game in the universe' is bspeers in his RON thread with the promotional video. He is very much aware of all I just said and approaches the 'I made the best game!1' deal with hilarious results - and great respect of how he must constantly undermine the validity of his own statement.

We are not bigshot companies. Do not ape the marketing strategy of bigshot companies. Do not tell me 'I did this because Ford did worse'. I detest Ford. You know and I know how Apprentice I and II were recieved by the AGS crowd, it's risky to say 'we are the best' when you have so many AGS awards and then go 'wha? huh? it was a joke! nobody got it?'

[Gregjazz]

You know and I know how Apprentice I and II were recieved by the AGS crowd, it's risky to say 'we are the best' when you have so many AGS awards and then go 'wha? huh? it was a joke! nobody got it?'

Hmmm, you're right.

My attitude when it comes to creating games is to create something for other's enjoyment. The AGS awards were a pleasant way of letting us know our games were enjoyed--and I feel happy because of that, not about my own achievement but that other people were entertained for a few hours.

[Las Naranjas]

Carlsberg - "Probably the best beer in the world"

The qualifier [apart from the general ludicrousness of the claim] makes me laugh.

[big brother]

Slogans die out, new campaigns are made, agencies vie for accounts, but every company started somewhere. You can find the puffery on every level. Sales is more of an indirect goal than an adequate measurement. The business world isn't made up of faceless corporations, but a bunch of people. In my personal experience, the informed don't take it too seriously, especially in advertising. Sorry to jump on this off-topic, but I have a degree in advertising and business.

How many professional game companies have even heard of the AGS Awards? Don't take this community too seriously, Helm. As for Apprentice, that was like making a recipe that wins a town fair, then adopting the "best in the universe" slogan. You'd have to be pretty myopic to attribute that to arrogance. There's just too big a difference between those two realms.

[Helm]

You'd have to be pretty myopic to attribute that to arrogance.

I'm sure you know that passively asserting what the other person has to be when there's dispairity of opinion is a great way to strawman your way onto making your sale. Since you've studied business and advertising and everything. Do you also know it's pretty insulting?

I've studied (and am close to getting my degree on) not taking shit and being cautious in my assumptions in equal parts, myself. It works great. Perhaps it would dispel such negative opinion about you being arrogant if you didn't persue such agressive selling tactics when talking with people. Just saying. Beyond character critique now, I will now address your points.

Slogans die out, new campaigns are made, agencies vie for accounts, but every company started somewhere. You can find the puffery on every level.

Oh sure you can. Is Herculean Effort one of these companies that want to 'start from somewhere' and end somewhere else, then? This justifies stupid mottos? One of the companies that in order to get there will need the 'puffery' you speak of? I find that a shame because there's so many exciting things people can do outside the mainstream, besides uh, breaking in the mainstream, using all the mainstream-methods.

Sales is more of an indirect goal than an adequate measurement.

Yes.

The business world isn't made up of faceless corporations, but a bunch of people.

Diverting. The business world is made up from models of financial enterprize. Looking at the people building block is dualistic and not at all what I was talking about. I am talking about the attitude of corporations and the tried and tested models of advertising you've gotten your degree on. I believe these models have no place in the AGS scene. Not even in an ironic usage, which I can however stomach if adequately funny, but much less in what you're sort of admitting here as being a legitimate business practise of a 'company that starts somewhere' to end somewhere else.

How many professional game companies have even heard of the AGS Awards?

What does this mean?

Don't take this community too seriously, Helm.

I will take seriously what I find important. I find this is respectful and fitting. You?

As for Apprentice, that was like making a recipe that wins a town fair, then adopting the "best in the universe" slogan.

Yes, think how arrogant and silly that would look.

There's just too big a difference between those two realms.

I agree! How awkward would it be when small-timers adopt the methods of bigshot advertisers just because 'they have to start from somewhere'.

[CaptainBinky]

I'm not sure how to say this, but I get the impression that some people will play the game just because of the main character.

Unless the game is supposed to be LSL-like (which it could for all I know), I'm unsure how the game could be taken seriously.

I hope, I really hope, that anybody who plays the game will "get" the tone within the first few minutes of playing dispite their original assumptions about the character. Isn't this a bit like dismissing Akira as serious because it looks like a cartoon, and therefore for kiddies?

[big brother]

Nah, anime is seen differently in the Japanese culture than the way we might view cartoons. Anime is a vehicle for many different tones of expression and doesn't carry the same connotations the American cartoon does.
I mean, I think your players will adjust, but the initial reaction won't necessarily be consistent.

As far as Helm's post goes, I'm not going to argue about business with you. We have very different educations and viewpoints on it, and it'll just cause frustration on both sides. HEP is not a real company, sorry to disappoint (I don't know what this "start from somewhere " venom is about). I'll leave the slogan as a joke that you didn't get.

Perhaps the whole recipe example was a bad analogy. Maybe it's more like a big minnow in a puddle next to a sea of sharks. The minnow brags about its size, well aware of the sharks next door.

Wow, that sounds like something from a bad fortune cookie.

[CaptainBinky]

Nah, anime is seen differently in the Japanese culture than the way we might view cartoons. Anime is a vehicle for many different tones of expression and doesn't carry the same connotations the American cartoon does.

Okay, bad example (but it was only an example). What about Watership Down? It's a cartoon, therefore for kids, kids go see it and get freaked out. I'm not denying that people won't get the wrong impression from looking at that one screenshot IN ISOLATION, but in the same way as the poster for Watership Down featured a snared rabbit and therefore indicated some mature themes within, our story and hopefully the rest of the screenshots when finished will do the same for us.

(I hope).