3D characters in AGS?

[Atlas]

I understand why some people say that AGS should maintain its focus, and that if you want 3D, go to a different engine like DarkBasic.Ã,  However, there is a very good reason for some of us to wish and hope that AGS adds 3D character ability rather than forcing us to go somewhere else, and that is that AGS has unsurpassed facilities specifically built for writing adventure games.Ã,  Something as broad as DarkBasic simply will not be as easy as AGS for this type of game.

Some may argue that the purpose of AGS is to make old-style adventure games.Ã,  But today, even games like The Longest Journey (my all time favorite) is quickly becoming an old game, and has 3D characters atop pre-rendered graphics.Ã,  Adding new technologies will allow AGS to attract the younger generation that doesn't know what a Sierra or Lucas adventure game is, and longs for the olden games of crisp pre-rendered graphics and 3D real-time characters.

I congratulate CJ for adding modern features like high resolutions, true color support, and transparency effects.Ã,  Ultimately, having all the modern features to make the best adventure games possible will bring much more attention to AGS, something that will benefit the entire AGS community--including those that choose not to use the latest features.

I wait with fingers crossed for 3D character support.Ã,  I don't want to have to go to a different engine that is less efficient at making this type of game.

Atlas

[scotch]

There would be a lot to change if AGS were to support 3d characters on 2d backgrounds, aside from getting it to draw 3d models.  I'd love it to, and I'd make a 3d AGS if I had the ability, but it's not easy simply to add it on top of the current AGS.  3D characters need to be drawn correctly to fit in with the background graphics, so you need to set the camera FOV and position that fits the background, and to have the walkable areas and regions planned out with some sort of 3d structure, lighting would have to be placed in 3d space.  The whole editor would have to be different, 3d animations work differently to 2d ones, not just replacing the character model with a different one, as you do with sprites (not these days anyway).

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I'm not sure it's worth it, considering most people are happy with 2d, and AGS is designed for Classic adventure game styles.  I do think 3d hardware accelerated 2d graphics is a good idea for AGS though.

I'm surprised there isn't a single engine available for 3d adventure games of the more modern kind.  If anyone does make a game like this in darkbasic or anything else would they consider keeping the engine as customisable as possible, and open it up for others to use?

[Meowster]

and that wouldn't be easy like 2D

That's the crappiest argument against 3D I've ever heard.

(I did not make that model on the left. Shbaz lies.)

[Layabout]

I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I'm not sure it's worth it, considering most people are happy with 2d, and AGS is designed for Classic adventure game styles.Ã,  I do think 3d hardware accelerated 2d graphics is a good idea for AGS though.

Would you not consider Grim Fandango to be a classic adventure game? Because quite frankly I would. It is one of the greatest examples of how adventure games are done RIGHT.

Even trying to create the atmosphere in Grim in a 2d game would require a hell of alot more effort to the character animation and scripting of the game.

[shbaz]

(I did not make that model on the left. Shbaz lies.)

Well yeah, except this is what it looked like when I was through with it, and I created it from your drawing, therefore it is mostly your creation.

[shbaz]

For those interested, here is a tut on how to accomplish the 2d background in Blender's game engine (though if you've never used the Game engine you won't know how the hell to do what it's talking about). It's a simple method, should work with many other game engines too.

[Crichton]

This is quite an interesting discussion and I wish I joined it sooner but many people have made excellent arguments on why adding 3D character support is a good idea. I support that idea as well. It's not like those who don't like 3D would be forced to use it anyway but it would make AGS that much better. Of course, graphics don't make a game, so don't misinterpret what is being said here. No one says it would be easy for Chris, so, obviously, it's not a demand, just a really big wish.

And I would like to paste this bitÃ,  from "The Inventory" Chris Jones interview:

- It is rather obvious that you like adventure games.
Could you tell us some of your favourites
(commercial and non-commercial ones).

There have been loads of good adventures over the
years. I have particularly fond memories of Space Quest
4, the Quest for Glory series (especially the first one),
and also a couple of lesser known ones such as
Bioforge. Bioforge was a very interesting game at the
time because as I recall it was pioneering the use of 3D
characters moving over pre-rendered 2D backgrounds,
and managed it surprisingly well considering the
hardware available at the time.

I won't make full assumptions for CJ but it's obvious that he has an appreciation for 3D characters over pre-rendered 2D backgrounds. It's just a matter of finding a good way of implementing it into AGS.

[Crichton]

I also wanted to mention that a long time ago I e-mailed Funcom about how TLJ was done and the response was that the backgrounds and characters were made in 3DStudio MAX, then the lightmaps were imported into the game engine (among other things), so that when April walks around, all the lighting around here changes accordingly without having to set it up manually.

[scotch]

I hadn't seen that interview with CJ, it's nice to see he likes the idea, I can think of loads of cool stuff I'd like to do with a 2d/3d adventure game engine.

But when you really consider how much has to change to make 3d character/2d background support work then I think you'll come to the conclusion that it may as well be done in a seperate program.Ã,  That would be the easiest way.

Of course rendering a 3d model for the character with no adjustment for perspective and flat ambient lighting straight onto the background would be possible, and would require very little to change from the way things are now, there would be very little point in it.Ã,  The character may as well be pre rendered.

The advantages of 3d are in having the characters adjusted for perspective correctly, lit correctly, perhaps casting a shadow.
For this you need to set the camera position and FOV so that the character is drawn with the correct scale and perspective as he walks around, perhaps this could be done in the editor by displaying some 3d perspective grids and moving the camera around until they fit the room, but it'd be hard.
The walkable areas would probably have to be layed out as 3d shapes (it could work with the current system, but not as well).
Character animation and texture systems would have to be completely different from AGS now, importing skeletal (probably) animations, blending between lip sync frames for speech etc.Ã,  It's quite different to the sprite based system.
Lighting would have to be placed in 3d space, the editor would have to be very different to allow for that, and there's not really any way around it that would look any good.
For more advanced 3d effects like shadows there are many other problems, but assuming people just want Grim Fandango level 3d this is what would be needed.
The whole AGS graphics engine would have to be ported to a Direct3d or OpenGl, not sure how much work that would be but it wouldn't be easy (a software renderer might be possible, but probably even harder).Ã,  And presumably people would still want compatability with non 3d accelerated hardware for their 3d games, so there would have to be two graphics engines.
The editor would have to have different panels for 2d and 3d games, for the room editor, views system, sprite/model import.

So there's just so much that is different I think, although I'd love to see a 3d AGS, it's more likely to be made as a seperate program.

If CJ wanted to do that as his next big project, or anyone else, I'd be overjoyed :)Ã,  I'd definately help out with anything I could (test models/scenes etc)

I do think some 3d hardware acceleration would be great in AGS, for more advanced 2d effects, but 3d changes too much of the underlying way things work.

[Pumaman]

Of course rendering a 3d model for the character with no adjustment for perspective and flat ambient lighting straight onto the background would be possible, and would require very little to change from the way things are now, there would be very little point in it.Ã,  The character may as well be pre rendered.

This is just it - I could probably implement that without too much trouble.. but then, without lighting and perspective there's no real advantage to it, as you say. And all the engine and editor adjustments that would be necessary to accomodate it do pretty much rule it out.

If I do ever add 3D character support to AGS, it is likely to be just to the basic level where a View is replaced by a 3D model - anything further would just complicate things too much to be worthwhile.

[Crichton]

One of the main advantages for 3D characters (if done right) would be a much more fluid motion and anti-aliasing. Enabling 4x, 6x or 8x anti-aliasing in your video card's graphic options (or within a game with newer games) and then playing older games like Grim Fandango and TLJ brings a whole new look to them -- the jaggies around characters and interactive 3D objects are gone, everything looks smoother and fits in with the background. If you just pre-render a 3D character, it would either have to have jaggies on its edges or be pre-rendered against light or dark background, which means you will notice the light or dark edge on the opposite color backgrounds in a game, so definitely not as good as the real thing, even if it was just a basic polygonal character without fancy shadows and such.

One of the things I like about 2D Flash adventure games on the internet is that everything looks anti-aliased and without jaggies. But they have other limitations. That's where 3D characters come to the rescue in dedicated adventure engines.

Whether it'll require a seperate 3D AGS engine or modification of the current one, I hope Chris finds the way.

[MrColossal]

Crichton, AGS now allows for 32 bit support so characters do not have to have jagged edges, but obviously there's a noticable difference between real time 3d and prerendered

[InCreator]

No 3D characters. Or only as a plugin, maybe.
I think that AGS has proven itself very well to be elite of 2D GCS's. Now, there's no reason to lower this state by making it semi-3D engine which can do some 3D, but is still uncompareable to other, fully 3D engines. This sucks. Modern technology?

Well, drawing with a pen onto paper is still alot easier and comes more naturally than dragging mouse around or use tablet. Some things are immortal.

In my opinion, AGS should stay in its frames and reach the perfection of making 2D games, instead of being a little bit of everything - thus being actually nothing.
To be honest, many games are pretty awful too. 3D-character means new graphical (visual) improvement. I can't imagine what happens if people who are really lazy even to learn proper use of mspaint right now, all get some 3d-modelling progs and start flooding world (and us) with their "My 1st gaem!!1!1"s.

[shbaz]

Well, drawing with a pen onto paper is still alot easier and comes more naturally than dragging mouse around or use tablet. Some things are immortal.

That's not natural, they teach you to do it at such an early age that you just think of it as such. I've had a computer since I learned to write, and everything about it is just as natural to me as a pencil, including the mouse.

[Crichton]

Crichton, AGS now allows for 32 bit support so characters do not have to have jagged edges, but obviously there's a noticable difference between real time 3d and prerendered

MrColossal, I think you misunderstood. I was not talking about banding, I was talking about aliased edges of characters, so 32-bit has nothing to do with it. You can have anti-aliased 3D characters in 16-bit too.

I think that AGS has proven itself very well to be elite of 2D GCS's. Now, there's no reason to lower this state by making it semi-3D engine which can do some 3D, but is still uncompareable to other, fully 3D engines. This sucks. Modern technology?

It's one thing when you personally either don't like 3D or aren't good with it, it's another when you outright assume that anything 3D is "lowering" itself. That's only your opinion, so no need to "lower" yourself to be rude. Also, why does it automatically have to have the best 3D out there? What exactly do you mean by "others"? Is it Doom 3, Half-Life 2 or Unreal 2004 engine, all of which cost an insane amount of money to license? If you mean stuff like "Neoengine", which is 3D but is not optimized for adventures then it's far from commercial engines. And why have a fully 3D engine anyway? We're not asking to make full 3D games, just a 2D-3D hybrid.

In my opinion, AGS should stay in its frames and reach the perfection of making 2D games, instead of being a little bit of everything - thus being actually nothing.

That doesn't make sense to me. You've already said that AGS has proven itself to be elite of 2D GCS's, so how would it be a little bit of everything if it's already a lot of 2D? Besides, 3D chars on 2D backgrounds is a little bit of both, that is its essense and in games like Grim Fandango it is certainly not "nothing", even though it's not a "fully" 3D engine.

To be honest, many games are pretty awful too. 3D-character means new graphical (visual) improvement. I can't imagine what happens if people who are really lazy even to learn proper use of mspaint right now, all get some 3d-modelling progs and start flooding world (and us) with their "My 1st gaem!!1!1"s.

And you think there aren't enough crappy games with the current AGS? I don't think that reasoning works very well because you cannot prevent lazy people from being lazy by leaving out a certain features from the engine. They will still be lazy. Besides, is anyone forcing you to play bad games? They are free after all. And if they're not, they'll get a review first, so you can decide. Would you leave out an ability to have speech because voice acting in computer games can be very sucky? It has nothing to do with MsPaint in particular -- people that can't draw or are not willing to learn will suck with any program. It has nothing to do with AGS "reputation"either -- bad games won't make it to top 5 on the website, and they certainly won't get any rewards.

Anyway, why be so negative? Why assume that there would only be bad games with 3D chars? Why not assume there will be good games too? Glass half-empty, glass half-full...

[scotch]

Chrichton, MrColossal is refering to alpha blending in 32 bit sprites, which gives an even nicer antialiasing effect than FSAA on realtime 3d.Ã,  Not banding in colours.

The are many advantages of pre rendered sprites over realtime, in lighting, texturing, animation setup, mesh detail and other things.Ã,  The only thing the kind of realtime 3d AGS could have has over pre rendered sprites is generally a higher framerate for smoother animation.
Antialiasing already works just fine.

I don't agree with increator's comments either, but we probably would see lot of poserish, poor quality 3d.. somehow the MSpaint graphics we currently have seem much more preferable to that
If it was Grim Fandango style 3d, with perspective and lighting, that was a possible addition to AGS it would be worth it, but that's not going to happen.

[Cricthon]

scotch, are you talking about "scaled sprites" only or can AGS anti-alias 2D sprites at any size, including native sprite size? If so, which games use it? So far, all the games I tried have jaggies around sprite edges. But if you're only talking about scaled sprites then it's not the same as it would be with 3D characters. Smoother animation is actually the biggest reason I'd like 3D characters.

I don't think we'd see crappy 3D characters. People that would attempt it would probably be embarrassed to try it without any sort of effort. In fact, I believe if any game did feature a 3D character, it would probably be done with skill.

Why is Grim Fandango 3D style engine not possible? I'm only referring to the graphical part, of course. I'd much prefer to have a mouse control. It certainly is possible from programming point. But if you mean that it would be too hard and too much work to not get paid for then I guess I can understand that... It would be nice to start somewhere though -- the initial 3D character support doesn't have to be overly complicated.

[scotch]

No, I do not mean scaling "antialising" which does not blend the edges of a character with the background, just blends interior details into one another for a nicer scaling effect.
I am talking about alpha blended antialiasing.  The same kind that is in Runaway: A Road Adventure. http://www.agagames.com/scotch/alphablended.zip has an alpha blended character, if you look closely you can see the edges are antialiased, it's a bit messy so it's not the best example, but it is there.
I don't know of any games that use it yet, most AGS games are pixelled using old fashioned methods, so it's extra work to make them antialiased, and 32 bit colour is fairly new in AGS, so alpha blending hasn't been around long.

A Grim Fandango style engine is not easy to add on top of the current AGS engine for the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post.  There is probably a lot more that goes into setting up a real 3d scene than you are considering.
It's not impossible, but for all the trouble it would cause it may as well be a different program entirely.

[InCreator]

I'm not that negative, as it could seem.
Just, I'm talking for myself, and I really love AGS the way it is right now, so I'm maybe afraid of major "reforms" which could change it too much. But it's just me, okay?


But yes,
Poser - the source of doom and
  keyboard movement - okay only in AGI

[shbaz]

For the second time, you can't rely on programs like Poser or MakeHuman for game models. They would work, but would be horribly slow (maybe not if you used only one on a 2d background, but the more there are the worse the performance gets). The deforms on their complicated bone structure combined with the sheer amount of polygons would be far too much for most computers.

Game models are very custom works, made balancing low-polygon-density with sufficient detail, and texture maps to match.

What you would be more likely to see is a square form with square arms and square legs from newbs.

Telling me that it's a bad idea because newbs will use it is.. I don't know. My comprehend doesn't that reasoning brain.