Some people just don't deserve children...

[jetxl]

I cannot believe the idiocy of some parents. I mean, you have a child, and LET him roam FREE in a WAREHOUSE store?

OMG, they let children roam free? What if they start up a chainsaw, or remodify the stapletacker to shoot without the safety switch. Children have to be chained in the basement with a camera focused on them 24/7!

For real. Children don't have a death wish. They won't jump in front of cars on purpose. Besides, I fell many timesÃ,  from my bike or playing soccer on the stone street. Yes, at the time it hurd and I cried like hell but I never got an serious injury. Should parents keep children inside? NO! Children want to explore. To prevent them from doing that will fuck them up for the rest of their lifes.

There are a thousand ways you can die or get hurt inside a warehouse store. You work in one, how many accedents happen there on a daily basis?
You said it yourself that kid wasn't bad, those parents trusted their kid as every parent should.

B.T.W. How many children are being kidnapped on a daily basis in that warehouse store?

[shbaz]

So I guess we're starting to see why the current systems have a hard time preventing bad parenting. Any radical changes are going to have radical (and sometimes bad) consequences. I don't think anyone can disagree with disallowing pregnancy to substance abusers, but other things are too arbitrary to actually put in place. The current laws in the US do try to prevent bad parenting, but it requires intervention from people close enough to the kids to testify and thoroughly prove there is a problem. I think this is good and bad.. it's good because a lot of teenage kids are dumb enough to pretend they have more problems than they really do and get their parents in a shit-heap of trouble.

They won't jump in front of cars on purpose.

The problem with letting them roam free is that they don't always pay a lot of attention to all of their surroundings and they jump in front of cars by accident. How many times have you seen a child chase a ball into the street, or for that matter, play ball games in the street? Assuming you lived in a neighborhood with kids that played outside a lot, I would guess that it was more than a few times.

[Kinoko]

Agreed in some circumstances, but there ARE circumstances where a persons previous behavious in other areas indicates they definitely would not make good parents, or at least are at great risk of not being a good parents. I totally agree with rapists/murderers/child abusers never being allowed to have children. Not matter how reformed, the risk is too great and when you've done something as bad as that, you lose your rights in this regard for life.

What if a murdered killed someone out of revenge for them having hurt their child and got away with it (e.g. A Time To Kill movie).. would they then not be allowed to have kids? And what if a conviction was overturned? Medical technology can't guarantee that sterilisations are reversible, and they aren't 100% reliable, either. And that's before we even get into the whole punishment versus reform argument.

Seriously, SSH. Are you just inventing these circumstances for the sake of it?

A Time to Kill is a powerful movie and I'm glad the guy got off, but you know... it was still a terrible thing he did. I'm glad he did it, but the payoff he got for it is that those two rapists are dead and he can now live the rest of his life with his daughter. I don't think it's such a terrible thing that he shouldn't be having anymore children after that. Even if we do a bad thing in revenge for something horrendous, it's still a bad thing. I truly believe that if you do something that terrible, and taking a life no matter what the circumstances -IS- an enormous deal, you have to accept that you have to live with that choice in some way for the rest of your life. A rapist or a child abuser in particular, no matter how reformed, no matter how sick the thought of committing that crime again makes them... they have to pay for that mistake in some way for the rest of their lives. They can live a happy life in all other ways but they should never ever be allowed to parent or look after or work with a child again. It would be a bad decision for anyone to let them do so. It's kind of like working with animals - no matter how wonderful, good natured and sweet they are, sometimes their brain can -snap- and they can revert back to instinct. Committing a crime like a rape or child abuse is never forgotten, and even though it may be regretted, if something goes wrong with you that's beyond your control, it's much more likely that you as opposed to someone who hasn't experienced that behaviour have the possibility of reverting back to that behaviour. That's in an extreme case, and assuming that someone like that IS completely reformed.

Now, I know this sounds stupid and extreme, but those crimes are extreme and it's unfair on children to put them in constant contact with anyone like that.

Please point out to me where I said that these people should be sterilised. What you're doing is your taking one person's argument, and another person's argument, and assuming they both said both things.

I think it would be GREAT if we could just magically stop these people from having children, and magically only allow people who were good parents to have children. I don't actually think in real life this is practical whatsoever and I've said that.

I still believe that murderers, rapists, and child abusers shouldn't have children. I don't know how or even if this could ever be implimented, but it's what I believe regardless. People need to take responsibility for their actions and accept the consequences. It's not about punishing them, it's about putting children in the best environments for them.

There are some people you can just speak to and know that aren't ready for parenting. They just give off "stupidity" and "irresponsibility", and you -know-. It's a vibe... hard to measure, but in this case it's not that people should be made sterile. Just that I don't think they should have kids until they've grown up and become better people.

But since its impossible to measure and oh so very subjective, should it become law anywhere? I argree that there's some pretty irresponsible people around, but you just can't legislate for this kind of thing. And the whole idea stinks of the slippery slope to Eugenics.

Sure, look, again, I never said it should become legislation. It would be great if magically it was practical to do so, but it isn't.

What I've said the whole way is that the real key is education. When we as a society become well-rounded, good people, we as individuals can all be like that and things like legislation won't be necessary. It's a long way off, but it's the only fool-proof way to do it.

P.S. (as it were)... The comment about abortion (made by Rich) was obviously made by a person who quite clearly -doesn't- think of abortion as "murder of unborn children", as do I. I'm not saying you should change your view, but I'm sure you're intelligent enough to know that Rich doesn't share your views and quite clearly wasn't suggesting we reward people who would "murder unborn children". I mean... you -knew-, come on.

[TerranRich]

Hello? jetxl, were you serious? Children CANNOT be allowed to roam free in a working warehouse. What planet are you from? There have NO kidnappings and NO mishaps. You know why? WE look out for their children. NOT them. And those parents that I mentioned in my EasyJournal post were NOT atentive. They did not care. Did you even read the entry?

[jetxl]

I am serious, I trust kids.
The world wouldn't have fell into chaos if you didn't look out for that kid.

Children, just like adults, get hurt because they don't pay attention. That kid was concentrated when he climbed that ladder.
By the way, who are you to say that those parents don't give a FUCK about their kid. Do you know them personally or do you judge people on their design taiste? And I am sure they don't let their kid wander of on the freeway!

And do you know how BORING it is to listen as a kid to your parents oppinion on fausets. And you would have FORCED that kid to stay? I'm not impying that we should let kid do whatever the hell they want to do, but You are impying that we should chain children to their parents at all times.

[Kinoko]

You know, it's almost tiring having to be so right and go around correcting everyone's exaggerations all the time ^_^

Jet: Noone could predict what would have happened to that child, but it's entirely possible he may have been hurt, even seriously hurt. Just because they probably don't let their kid loose on the freeway, doesn't mean they don't neglect looking after him in smaller ways (that can be just as deadly). They may not, but they may.

"Do you think you're a good parent?"
"Sure! I do nothing for him but I NEVER let him walk on the freeway."

Sure, it's boring to listen to your parents talk about faucets but it's apart of being a child. Everyone has to put up with things like this... you know why? Because you're a child and your parents say so. Hell, it's a life skill. Try being in a long term relationship. My boyfriend has to put up with me doing all sorts of shopping and I have to do the same for him. I feel like hanging myself from boredom sometimes but I -don't- because I got somewhat uised to it as a child following my parents around in Bunnings ^_^ (which, incedentally, I had a ball at. I loved looking at the -stuff- there, like bathroom settings).

Also, Rich never implied parents should CHAIN their kids to them all the time, whether you're speaking literally or not. Parents DO need to keep a constant eye on their children. I was a very smart child when I was young. One day, my mum had to rush into a friend's house to get something and left me just outside the car so I didn't get uncomfortable and bored in the lady's house. She wasn't more than a couple of minutes, and it was a very friendly, quiet neighbourhood. I decided I wanted to go home - so I did. I just walked home, across several busy streets too. Later on, my mum came home in tears and I'll never forget how awful I felt at that moment.

I don't blame her at all for what she did, my problem was that I WAS a very intelligent, resourceful child and I "knew" I could get home okay. I can't believe how many dangers I narrowly avoided though, I was very lucky to have made it home okay. I can't have been more than 4 or 5 at the most. That, however, is exactly the kind of reason parents do need to keep a constant eye on their children. Children think they know a lot, and that can get them into a lot of trouble. They have absolutely no concept of how they're putting themselves in danger. Sure, a lot of the time, it works out okay. The risk for a little bit of freedom is not worth it though. I've had too many children related to me in some way die because of simple things.

Letting your kids play in the park while you sit to the side and chat with a friend is one thing. Letting them wander completely out of sight in a warehouse or even a shopping centre is not okay because a lot of bad things CAN happen.

[jetxl]

So...what's your point.

Quantums point was that those people don't deserve children.
I disagree.

kinda of topic. I climbed all kind of things, even when my parents WERE watching me (my parents are wurry freaks!).

[TerranRich]

See, that's different, jetxl (and sorry for my insulent tone earlier). As long as your parents are watching you, that's fine. But those parents at my store were NOT watching their kid. And how do I know they're bad parents? The mother weakly called the kid's name once and then SHRUGGED, as if she didn't care, and kept looking at facuets, as if they were more important. I say "as if" because I don't know them personally, but good parents don't do that. I've seen MANY parents go beserk when they can't see where their kids are. Because, as a PARENT, you think of the worst and think about kidnappings. Just because they haven't happen, don't mean they never WILL happen. They are always a possibility.

As a parent, one is responsible for their child's safety and well-being. Letting a kid wander around a working warehouse store, with working forklift trucks where you CAN'T see anything, is just plain stupid. Another point: we sometimes have to pull down or put up pallets in an overhead of an aisle in the store. So what we do is we block off the aisle we're using, PLUS the aisle adjacent to the side we're working on, so that if anything falls down, nobody gets hurt, on the other side. You know, never mind the idiot ADULTS that step through the barricades we put up just to get an item they really want, but we can't be worryinig about unsupervised kids running around, too.

When a kid falls, he falls differently than an adult. He just goes "plop" because of his lack of body weight and body structure. An adult can flail around, try to alter his fall so he lands on his ass or side. A kid can't do that, no matter how intelligent.

And all good parents are worry freaks. That's what makes them good; they care.

[SSH]

I think part of the problem with this thread is that there's really (at least) three separate issues.

1. I'll trust Richard's judgment on his anecdote, as I have no real reasons not to. Those parents were not paying enough attention to their child. My daughter quite likely would be doing the same kind of thing, running around Homebase or B&Q climbing ladders etc, but I at least would be running around after her trying to keep up. Quite possibly they could be better parents.

2. Extrapolating from one incident of negligence to that those people don't desrve to have kids is a Quantum Leap ( ) however. We all make mistakes, even about juding potential risk. Letting your kid run off around a supermarket is probably realitively OK, but a hardware store is a different matter, but maybe the parents were just to entranced by the wonderous display of plumbing goods at Rich's shop. On the other hand, Rich was only saying so in a blog    but back to the first hand again and Rich did go on about various ways to reduce welfare payments to kids' parents

3. Even, assuming that in this case the parents shouldn't have kids, extrapolating from a specific case to some kind of radical sterilisation program to reduce the number of parental negligence-related deaths (which seems to be a huge problem in people's minds here, but I have yet to see any hard facts on the death rates involved here, compared with, say, deliberate parental abuse)  is another leap.

And sorry Kinoko, I did realise that you weren't advocating sterlisation, but my reply was aimed at more than you: I should have made that clear.

And worry about your kid changes over time. I used to worry that Alba would be born with a birth defect of some kind, but I don't worry about number two so much... does that mean that I won't be such a good parent to her? Or maybe experience is the mother of realism? How much experince in being a parent do you have, Rich?

[TerranRich]

See, I knew somebody would bring up experience. I HAVE parents. I've observed them. I've observed other parents. I'm a keen observer of human behavior to the point where I can almost identify with certain people. I've observed enough to judge between good parenting methods and bad ones. Just because I'm not a parent myself doesn't mean that my opinions now aren't valid. I will take those opinions and they will shape the way I will raise chldren of my own, which isn't too far off. Please don't invalidate my opinion just because I'm not a parent. There could be so many counter-examples of opinions vs. experience that I could bring up.

[Blade]

I see this thread is going on a clash...

Let me tell you a story. Don't worry, it's quite on the subject. But it's about how my mom is a good parent paying attantion to me.

I was about 3, maybe four. I wanted to go out but didn't tell anyone, just went out. Luckily, my mom noticed my disappearance very quickly. She came out ans saw me - crossing the street with that car coming out of a small curve I've got on my street, speeding, or maybe I just didn't pay attention to it coming. Well, my mom cried out loud, ran across the street grabbing me by the way and getting to the other side before that car hitting us. Well, she risked her life for me. I was so little that I most surely wouldn't survive a hit. She saved my life becuase she noticed my disappearance really fast and she found her courage. And I am proud of my mom and shamed of myself - becuase of me we could have died both...

Well, those people didn't pay attention to their child. From what you say QuantumRich I make that they wouldn't run to save their kid from a speeding car. Or maybe they would? None of us will know for sure.
But one thing I know for sure - you're a good guy, QuantumRich, because you take care.   

[TerranRich]

Heh. Thanks. Apparently, nothing else was left to say on this thread. I think you've just re-defined a "good parent", lelev. Someone willing to risk their own life to save their own child. A great parent would be one willing to give their life for their child.

[Blade]

Sadly, there is no such thing as ideal parent.

[jetxl]

How fast was that car driving? You let is sound like it was going 1000mph and he was AIMING at you.


Anyway, when I red the title of the post I thought that is was another sorry about a girl being locked in the closet for 7 year. I don't want to read those stories, but when I finally red the topic it was about such a minor thing. So I got pissed that Rich made such a big deal about a small incedent. I'm sorry, Rich.

[Blade]

Well I was just about in the middle of the road. My mom was just getting on the pavement from one side. And I don't remember everything exactly - you know, I was three or something like that. But I KNOW that car was gonna hit me.

[viktor]

Well I remember that my dad got in a fight becouse of people like that.  Each year there's a fstival in my town caled festival LENT. One year a celebraty actualy came to the festival. It was esmeralda from those spanish soap opras (man I hate these shows). So naturaly there was a big croud. Me and my mom are walking in the crowd with my dad and sister behind us. Sudenly a big guy jups in front of us knocking me down (I was 4 or 5 years old at that point). Than he has the nerw to scream at my mom for not loocking where we were going. My dad lost his temper and almoast beat up the guy. At this point I started wandering if that guy had any kids.

Thinking of this festival I remember one funny thing. After we got through the crowd we went to a cafe for some drinks. We sat on the weranda so we could se the whole festival. An old lady comes by walking with 2 crutches. Sudenly someone screams: "ESMERALDA IS HERE !!!"
The old lady threw up the crutshes and ran like crazy. I know this was way of topic but I just thought that was so funny I just had to tel you. That just shows how weard  older people  can be...

[TerranRich]

So I got pissed that Rich made such a big deal about a small incident. I'm sorry, Rich.

Excuse me? A small incident? Sure, nothing HAPPENED, but there was the possibility of death, and I'm not exaggerating at all when I say that. Think before you type.

[jetxl]

Oh, I still disagree. I'm just sorry for making you mad.


I red a newsclip once about a child surviving a 4th floor fall. He threw his toy outside and thought that jumping out of the window was the only route to get it back.
Apperent children are better build against "bumps". If it was an adult, he would have died from internal bleeding (or used the stairs). Not saying that childen jumping out of windows is safe.

But then again the kid you encountered didn't fell. That brings me to the point that you let it sound like you encounter death every day if you're so aware of it.
Now, I myself almost get hit by a bus every workday because I visit the most crouded station of North-Netherlands (bus drivers don't give a fuck about students). I never ever SEEN an accedent, but I heard stories about a someone being squished between two busses. The possibility of death is there and far greater. Still I don't live my life thinking about what might had or had not happened if...

You don't want your children grow up paranoid, dependent and lacking currage. The best way to let children learn things is to let them find things out themselves. If it was right in this case, I dought it. But that girl that was locked in the closet for 7 years could never climb that ladder.
So don't you judge those people that you seen for less that 6 minutes.

[TerranRich]

Okay, you make a good point, about courage and discovery on one's own. The thing is, I had to make a decision. As an employee, I knew what was expected of me and that I HAD to get him down off of that ladder. We have MANY rules about safety, especially for children. My main point was that the parents didn't seem to care where their son was.

But then, one could also argue that the parents instinctively knew that their son wasn't in any trouble. Who knows? Who's to say. I just spoke from my heart and said what I felt.

ANd another thing, something about me... I had this innate sense of death. Not like a sixth sense or anything, but I am aware of it all the time, of others. In other words, my own life s inconsequential if it means saving someone else's. I fear death, but not for me...for others. My exothanatophobia (fear of others' dying...just made it up by adding "exo-" to "thanatophobia" ) kicked it and I had to get him down.