Multiculturalism in Europe

[Anarcho]

There's an interesting article in today's New York Times about multiculturalism, or lack thereof, in Europe:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/15/international/15letter.html?hp

Since so many Europeans are on this board, and it's a topic I've struggled with myself, I thought perhaps we could have a discussion about it.

I've spent about a year and a half in Germany, and traveled a fair bit in Europe as well, and it always struck me as interesting how on a whole, people could be extremely progressive or culturally liberal on a whole range of topics, but when it came to immigrants rights or issues of diversity, people would regress to the stone age.  For example, the whole issue of "religious" headwear and clothing in French schools.  I would talk about it with my crunchy, neo-hippy Berliner friends, who would passionately argue on the side of the French government that "religious" clothing should not be in schools.  I tutored a middle-aged Ukrainian sports agent for a while, and he was about as liberal as a middle-aged Ukrainian sports agent can get, and we seriously almost got in a fight over this topic. 

What's the deal?  It always seemed to be not about religion in schools, as those students are obviously not "teaching" religion, but about assimilating foreigners.  I mean, didn't they make Sikh's take off their turbans in school?  If I'm not mistaken, aren't turbans of cultural significance, not religious? 

This is just one example of course, but the article above discusses how Europeans, unlike Americans, have failed to embrace cultural diversity.  I don't think you can make that a blanket statement of course, but as a whole, it's definitely true.  Maybe it's just easier for us Americans to except that culture is an ever-changing thing, because that's the way it's always been in our country.  It's obviously different in Europe, as the odd bookstore or petrol station is often older than my country.  Old habits die hard. 

So, thoughts?  Opinions?  Am I making any sense here?

[Nacho]

Thanks for linking me to the New York Times' "log in" page.

And they're not "turbans" they're "chaddor" a symbol of the submission of the muslim women to God.

And I will be against everything meaning submission to any "God"...

[Hobbes]

Anarcho, I don't get it either.

I'm a teacher at a primary school myself... we had a whole discussion about the topic.

Out of the 25 people who work at my school, I and 4 others didn't have a problem with headwear.

Twenty others had. Without any real valid arguments.

Fear, ignorance, if you ask me... try to understand, learn other religions, broaden your perspective.

It's a cause worth fighting for, imho.

[Anarcho]

Farlander,

Sorry I linked to the login page, I thought it would link to the article.  You don't need to be sarcastic.  I was hoping we could have a mature discussion here. 

The nytimes can be reached here: www.nytimes.com and the article is entitled, "A Continent Watching Anxiously Over the Melting Pot".  Evidently, you'll need to login if you want to read it.

As for the word Turban...it's kinda funny, because I've read about half a dozen articles or so and Sikh headwear is refered to as Turbans, and believe it or not, in the Sikh encyclopedia they talk at length about Turbans:

http://allaboutsikhs.com/encyclopedia/index.php?article=105itle=TURBANgt=T&brief=no&lastArt=113

Hopefully that link will work, and you won't have to login.  From what I read, I don't see anything about  the submission of muslim women to God.  Maybe some people interpret it that way, and perhaps some people use the term "chaddor".   I haven't come across the interpretation or the term over here. 

[Anarcho]

Hobbes,

That's really interesting.  I guess you've had the same experience.  When I would talk about it with the sports agent I mentioned above, he would get really really defensive, and when I tried to breakdown his argument, he basically would just refuse to talk about it further.  Wierd.

But that leads me to another question.  Farlander, are you against  "religious" headwear in school because you disagree with what it stands for?  I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is that how you feel?  That's pretty different from the separation of church and state.

[Meowster]

As for wearing turbans in school, I guess there are arguments for and against it. I'm against it, personally. As Farlander mentioned, they can be a sign of submission. I've seen girls in schools over here wearing veils. I find that so highly fucking offensive, that our government can condone this treatment of women. I don't care what that little girl thinks is right, and I don't care what her parents think is right, because I've been brought up in a country that embraces freedom and equality and now we're allowing people to let their little girls walk around being submissive to men or god or whatfuckingever. We sure as hell wouldn't allow IRISH parents to treat their children like this.

I'm all for multiculturalism, but the government is going about it completely wrong. They're forcing completely different people together, and that will only cause a bigger gap between them. The truth is, this is our country and our ideals, and while we should welcome other people, asking us to welcome their fucked up belief system is a step too far. If they come here, they should be prepared to accept a couple of our ways.

I think the government is doing a shit job of promoting it. The situation as it now stands, is that if you don't agree with certain aspects of multiculturalism, like my post, you get called a racist. Which really fucking pisses me off.

Man, I wish a big nuclear bomb would go off in France and end all our problems.

[Anarcho]

Woh, what happened to your whole post?  i was writing a response and then half of it is gone!

[Anarcho]

First of all, I don't want you to get offended by anything I say here, but I'm going to be honest.  I find it hard to believe you when you say “I'm all for multiculturalism” but later resort to “This is OUR country.”  Look, I agree with your assessment of the stricter Muslim/or cultural traditions that, among other things, oppress women (though I think it's safe to say that Islam does not necessarily condone the oppression of women, the culture does).  And when it comes to a person breaking local laws, i.e. domestic violence, then all citizens should be held accountable.  It shouldn't matter where you're from.  But things like veils, clothing, turbans, these things have a deeper context for a lot of people that can't be easily dismissed.  A lot of people at my former college were Muslim, and wore headdresses.  I remember one person remarking that if she took it off, it would feel like she was naked.  So why is it any of your business to tell her to take it off?  Why do you wear pants?  Or ties?  Or anything else for that matter?

Even if you disagree with some of the things “religious” clothing may or may not stand for, the whole idea of multiculturalism is that you should tolerate it. 

Furthermore, this whole “my country” or “OUR country” thing…it's a little misleading.  Culture isn't a static thing.  It's constantly changing.  I mean, what's Irish culture?  It's not like God created an Irishman, plopped him down on the island, and let him go nuts.  No, it's a culture that evolved through time following migrations, invasions, cultural turmoil, oppression and immigration.  Sure, you were presumably born in your country, and feel entitled to call it your own, but what about the little girls you speak of who were born to Muslim parents.  If they were born in Ireland, is it not their own country too?

[Anarcho]

Sorry to keep responding here, but...

Farlander, upon further investigation, a Chaddor is what Muslim women wear, and for modern practitioners, they are optional.  Sikhs are not Muslim.  And they wear turbans.

[Pumaman]

I think a lot of the anti-immigrant sentiment comes because a lot of immigrants don't try to integrate with the country they're moving into, and instead set up their own little communities.

It's understandable for immigrants to want to live near other people from the same country, but when you get large pockets of 'foreigners' who haven't even bothered to learn the language of the country they're living in and just keep themselves to themselves, it makes a lot of people nervous.

For instance, a friend of mine is an immigrant from Zimbabwe. He has made an effort to live in a 'normal' British town, speak English and get to know the local people; and thus has integrated into the community.

On the other hand, people who immigrate from Eastern Europe tend to come and live in a town already dominated by people from their country. They don't integrate with the existing population, but keep to their own community, speaking their own language. This then leads to other local people feeling intimidated (whether perceived or real) by the large groups of 'foreigners' walking around, and this then leads to tensions.

This is all a huge generalisation of course, but it seems to be what people feel.

So I don't think that immigration itself causes the problem, more the way people behave, and are interpreted by the rest of the population.

[Pet Terry]

This is a very interesting topic indeed.

I must say that I agree with Yufster on the point that people coming from another country should accept the new way of behaviour that might not be similar to their home country. But by that I don't mean things like clothing etc. More like things that just don't fit into the rhytm of life in the new country. I've heard stories about stuff like that happening and it has caused big discussions.

As for wearing those turban thingys, I personally have nothing against it. It doesn't offend me and I don't really see how it would offend anyone else. From what I've seen people have got really well along with other people who are from another country or stuff like that. I'm not entirely sure, but I remember here in Finland being some discussion about not allowing people to wear those turbans in school but I don't know if it really happened or was it just about the case in France. But if it really happened here, I guess they wouldn't allow me to go to school with turban if I one day decided to wear one for fun.

[Anarcho]

Well, the refusal to assimilate has definitely led to severe oppression throughout history.  Jews are the greatest example of a people who have historically refused to assimilate, and as a result, have been lynched, murdered, harrassed, isolated, etc.  But I really disagree with the sentiment that anyone should have to give up who they are or what they believe in just because they move to another country.  Learn the language?  Sure, but that's also a pretty tough thing to do, speaking as someone who has tried. 

Plus, why do people end up in ethnic communitiies?  Because when they decide to immigrate, they move to a place where they know someone.  They have a cousin, or have a friend, or someone they know might know someone etc.  And then this continues to happen until you have a community.  I live in a neighborhood in Washington, DC called Adam's Morgan, and it was historically (recent history anyway) a hispanic community.  It grew into a "hispanic community" through the very process I mentioned above.  I don't think people wanted to stay isolated, it's just the easiest way to get through a really difficult process.  And you know what?  I'm not pissed that there are people who look different from me on the streets, and I'm not angry that the restaurants don't serve hamburgers or sport American flags, I find the diversity interesting.  And more importantly, I like the food.  Anyway...

[Blackthorne]

As an American, and on a totally NON-RELIGIOUS note......

we weren't allowed to wear hats in school; hence no turbans.  I went to public school, too, not a private school.

Bt

[Meowster]

“This is OUR country.” Ã, 

So now we're not allowed to say that this is OUR country, without being against multiculturalism? Isn't it our country? Who's country is it, exactly? Are we allowed to be proud of our country any more, or does that seem too guarded?

A lot of people at my former college were Muslim, and wore headdresses. Ã, I remember one person remarking that if she took it off, it would feel like she was naked. Ã, So why is it any of your business to tell her to take it off? Ã, Why do you wear pants? Ã, Or ties? Ã, Or anything else for that matter?

In my country, we wear trousers, among other things. Since I can't think of a country whereby the people run around naked, I'll use another example; rainforest tribes or beduin tribes. If they were offended by clothes, and I chose to live with them, I would wear whatever they wear (or rather, don't wear). However, that's a retarded example as (a) I wouldn't choose to live with them and (b) nobody would.

I don't like what headdresses or veils represent. I don't think they should be allowed in schools because they represent a certain element of a culture that is oppressive and backwards. Furthermore, there are plenty of countrys that DO allow them to wear headdresses if they feel it is so necessary, and I'm sure they could move there if it bothers them so much.

Even if you disagree with some of the things “religious” clothing may or may not stand for, the whole idea of multiculturalism is that you should tolerate it.

This is exactly the thing I hate. For me to want multiculturalism, I have to accept absolutely everything that the other side have to offer? Absolutely NO. So many of their views and opinions and traditions offend and sicken me, I won't accept them. If I have to accept them to accept the people, well then, I don't accept multiculturalism. It's completely unrealistic to assume that so many people that are so wildly different can live together peacefully. I have enough difficulty sitting next to a fundamentalist christian.

If they were born in Ireland, is it not their own country?

Firstly, they weren't. Secondly, no. Not necessarily. What is it to be irish? Well, that's a hard, retarded question. In my opinion, it doesn't matter whether you're Irish or African or what the hell ever else. What matters is that it's a free country, and I'd very much like to see it stay that way. If people come to this country and don't like the idea of 'their' women not wearing veils, well, maybe they're in the wrong country.

As for wearing those turban thingys, I personally have nothing against it. It doesn't offend me and I don't really see how it would offend anyone else.

I'm getting angry and saying ridiculous things now, but I'm calming down. Alright. Breath. The reason it offends me is because I have, on numerous occasions, been treated quite appalling by muslim guys, most often at work. You probably don't get this as a guy, but I do. For instance, at work, I work with a guy who does my friggin' head in. If he wants something, he just grabs my hand and pulls me across the store. Right? He's that ignorant.

What bothered me most was when he told me that our women dress inappropriately. How dare he tell me that?! Another time, a guy came in with his wife in full dress from head to toe, and refused to speak to me, but a 'man'.

One of my friends at school always wore a veil outside of school, although she wasn't allowed in school. She was one of the sweetest girls ever, but had such a submissive attitude. She was very smart, too.

It's very frustrating for me to see this, and the veils are just sign of submission. If they want, they can wear them outside of school or whatever, but a school is a place of education and we're all equal.

An argument often used is that people wear decorative crosses to school, which is a religious symbol as well. Well, if they want, they can wear whatever religious symbol they want around their neck. But we're not allowed wear towels on our heads either, you know.

I think a lot of the anti-immigrant sentiment comes because a lot of immigrants don't try to integrate with the country they're moving into, and instead set up their own little communities

Right, I agree with this. I'm not anti-immigrant though, I just think that changing our ways for immigrants isn't going to help anybody. If they do move over here, they should realize they have to accept a certain part of our culture and try to fit in.

[Blackthorne]

I don't like what headdresses or veils represent. I don't think they should be allowed in schools because they represent a certain element of a culture that is oppressive and backwards. Furthermore, there are plenty of countrys that DO allow them to wear headdresses if they feel it is so necessary, and I'm sure they could move there if it bothers them so much.

Not to disagree with you at ALL Yufster, because I don't.  But playing another side of the coin here, who is to say that our cultural and morals are superior to some other culture?  Who are we to declare that THEY are backwards?  Maybe we are backwards.... who knows.  It's a fine line - I recently got into a conversation with my mother about this, and she spoke of how some Muslim cultures severly opress women.  I agreeed that I felt that opression and submission of women is wrong, how can I condemn a culture and tell them not to exist, without feeling like an opressor myself!  It's such a hard line.....

Bt

[Pumaman]

I really disagree with the sentiment that anyone should have to give up who they are or what they believe in just because they move to another country. Learn the language? Sure, but that's also a pretty tough thing to do, speaking as someone who has tried.

Sure learning a language is hard, but it's the effort that counts; if anything, attempting to learn is a sign that you're wanting to become a part of your new country, not just sit in it in isolation.

It's a bit like a kid moving to a new school ... either you can sit at the back and sulk along with the other new kid, or you can get in there and make a name for yourself in your new school.

Plus, why do people end up in ethnic communitiies? Because when they decide to immigrate, they move to a place where they know someone. They have a cousin, or have a friend, or someone they know might know someone etc. And then this continues to happen until you have a community. Ã, I live in a neighborhood in Washington, DC called Adam's Morgan, and it was historically (recent history anyway) a hispanic community. It grew into a "hispanic community" through the very process I mentioned above. I don't think people wanted to stay isolated, it's just the easiest way to get through a really difficult process. And you know what? I'm not pissed that there are people who look different from me on the streets, and I'm not angry that the restaurants don't serve hamburgers or sport American flags, I find the diversity interesting. And more importantly, I like the food. Anyway...

Of course, it's only natural that people go somewhere where they already know people and know that they'll be welcome.

And of course, there are loads of immigrant communities that are friendly and welcoming, and integrate in a great way. But at the same time, there are those where the opposite is true. Often, there's no particular reason why, it's just mistrust that has developed over several decades.

[Mr Flibble]

I agree with Yufster on most of her points.
I mean, I know a family of Muslims. They're nice folk.
For multiculturalism to work, we have to take some of their culture as well. But (taking Muslims as an example), why would we want to adopt a culture were women are second class citizens?
I mean, they are all entitled to their beliefs, but I feel that parts of their culture represent something backward. The world has moved on since then.
About the headresses, I think they probably should be banned in schools. Its about learning, not religion. If they want to worship a god, then they can do it in their own time.

Heres a point. We complain that they form their own communities within our country, but what do we do when we go on holiday?
If we meet someone from our own country, we would generally make friends with them. The concept of Little Britain.

[SSH]

I think its really ironic that people who trumpet "we are a free country" and "i hate oppression" think that its Ok to inflict their views, such as "I don't care what your religion is, you can't wear an X" on others. They also tend to be the ones that say "people should be able to believe whatever they like" and then say "oh, but, you're not allowed to believe that I need to be converted, or to believe that I am wrong in my beliefs"

[Pet Terry]

About the headresses, I think they probably should be banned in schools. Its about learning, not religion. If they want to worship a god, then they can do it in their own time.

In my old school student were free to wear pretty much whatever they wanted in school (well of course it would have been inappropriate to come in school naked or something like that) but during the class you weren't allowed to wear a hat. Believe me, I saw lots of different and really out of place clothing on people, but did it affect their studying? Not at all. I never saw anyone wearing (religious) headdress but I doubt anyone would have mind it, as long as they took it off when going to class.

[TheYak]

I simply can't see why people don't adopt an "I don't F___ with you, don't f___ with me" attitude.  I've got no problem with people wearing religious attire.  After all, being part of a particular religion means believing it all the time, not just as an after-school activity.  If the school (for some reason) has said that hats aren't allowed, then they'd have to comply as well. 

It's easy to argue that the US embraces multi-culturalism more but I think that's giving us a little too much credit.  I think that much of the religious tolerance is due to laws we have in place to protect the practicing of one's religion (laws made with Christianity in mind, no doubt).  I do think there's a good deal of fear, hatred and prejudice as pertains to many of our immigrants but the population - as a whole - keeps the nastiest bits under their hat and pretends tolerance. 

My view on this is best summed up by my first sentence.  Somebody wearing a turban, or a cross around their neck, or a sari, or a friggin' poncho doesn't hurt me.  Somebody demonstrating that they're of a particular faith doesn't chew on my ass, so long as they leave me the hell alone (on a preaching level, not an interpersonal one).