Multiculturalism in Europe

[Anarcho]

Chris,

Don't get me started on Christmas!  I love the holiday, but I just don't like how the Christians co-opted it and tried to turn it into something about Jesus.

But seriously, this all happened in the US when I was a kid.  When I was younger, we would get "Christmas" off.  And we would make "Christmas" decorations in school, and it would be plastered all over.  Then when the whole PC thing came along, people just used the term Holiday.  It became the Holiday season, and we would put up Holiday decorations.  And you know what?  It was no big deal.  Sure, people might have grumbled a bit, but if I were a Jewish kid in school and everybody talked only about Christmas, I would feel pretty alienated.  What does it matter if you celebrate the holidays collectively instead of singularly celebrating Christmas.  You're not killing Christmas by recognizing the fact that people celebrate other holiday's too.  People can still choose to celebrate the holiday, and we still talk about Christmas in school, but we also talk about Chanukah (and some people mention Kwanza...). 

And for the record, nobody stops you from wearing a "Christmas" sweater because it says Christmas on it....

If you really think about it though, nearly every major religion has a celebration in the middle of the winter.  I find the origins of Christmas really interesting, mostly because I'm a bid dork, but that's a whole other topic of conversation.

[Nacho]

I will be lost in translation many times, man, false friends kill me...

But you're exhaust... and you'll allways be if you don't carefully read my posts. I say "no, at least not in the school" and you say "not allowing foreign people to dress like they want is an attack to the freedom of expression!" You'll finish really tired because you're trying to convince me of a thing I agree with you.

Read them again and see that it is allways related to school, french laws about dressing in schools, muslims fathers in Spain taking out his daughter of the school because it's not allowed to wear chaddor there... I think I've specifically told that how they dress out of the school is something that particullary gives a fuck to me.

And... Chris... ARE THEY DOING THE SAME IN ENGLAND??? Here, an idiot mayor has removed the Xmas and substituted it by a "civil" form that includes singing songs of peace... And in Catalonia the "Bethlems" have been substituted by "winter landscapes" with no religious figurettes. We are really reaching a stupid point. Xmas has nowadays the same religious charge as a sardine, but I don't really feel as a bad thing to use religion as an excuse for making all the funny things I do in Xmas. Anarcho, you seem that you are a person who really cares of the feelings of the people. In my country there are 6 percent of inmigrants, whose half of it are christians, so, we have that only 3 % of the total amount of citicens here are not christians. Do you really approve to massivelly bother them for not bothering that 3%? I could agree with you f that would lead to a total lay state, but, that would be impossible because some muslims have not a minim intention to be lay. Don't you see the inherent danger of that the only show of religiousity is going to be made by muslims?

As I told... you seem to be pure and you couldn't care of it, but, man... that would really piss me off. And would piss a majority.

Please allow me to change the side of the omelette. If I was in Israel during Hannukah, I would LOVE to be invited to some of the celebrations that a possible jewish friend of mine could make to me. And I would be quite happy to live another different party than the one I had. I wouldn't leave celebrating Xmas at home, and I would probably bring a Santa's hat to school, but be sure that I would remove it if somebody feels offended (Or if there is a LAW which says "We won't allow any religious shows in class" and somebody informs me of it) and I would be glad to invite some of my jewish friends to my Xmas eve dinner. That's what I call making an effort trying to integrate me in a society (an effort that has to be greater if some stupid jerk who says who shares my religion has killed 192 people in a train). That's an effort that some people is not doing.

[Las Naranjas]

It's deliciously ironic when people justify anti muslim sentiment [and I thought this was about migrants...] on the basis that muslims must be intrinsically intolerant.

.....


Becausea  tolerant culture is the kind that can classify an entire other culture as intolerant...


I remember how that French woman was found in the French subway with the cuts and bruises and swastikas, and that she was attacked by "north africans" [which is a euphemism in the same way anti semites use "zionist"] who thought she was Jewish and immedietly the attack was condemned by every single member of society up to Chirac. Of  course, she was lying and crazy, her boyfriend had helped her and in the end there was nothing to support her story but her word, which she retracted, but still, there was immediate sympathy since everyone knows how much "north africans" hate Jews right?

Likewise, that book Forbidden Love which sold countless copies to westerners wanting to be sanctimonious over those patrichal beasts, but hey, it was entirely made up by a woman who spent her life in America. But hey, it fed what we wanted to beleive.



On another note, immigration is one area where the US has a huge advantage over Europe, since it's historically a migrant nation, and didn't spend the past two centuries divying up the continent based on linguistics and the like. The EU is largely a reflection that the world outside is more frightening than each other now...

[Nacho]

BecauseaÃ,  tolerant culture is the kind that can classify an entire other culture as intolerant...

That means that if actually exist a culture which is intolerant the rest of the cultures in the world couldn't mention it because they'd be seen as intolerants too...

Interesting...

and don't be biased, and if you've read something in a e-newspaper, say it all. If the tale told by that french woman was so successfull it was becuase in the previous month there were some of attacks made by a muslim faction against severall Sinagoges.

[Pumaman]

Then when the whole PC thing came along, people just used the term Holiday.  It became the Holiday season, and we would put up Holiday decorations.  And you know what?  It was no big deal.  Sure, people might have grumbled a bit, but if I were a Jewish kid in school and everybody talked only about Christmas, I would feel pretty alienated.  What does it matter if you celebrate the holidays collectively instead of singularly celebrating Christmas.  You're not killing Christmas by recognizing the fact that people celebrate other holiday's too.

But you are killing Christmas by telling Christians that they must call it "Winterval" so as not to offend other faiths. Is this instruction itself not offensive to Christians who do want to celebrate Christmas?

Nobody tries to rename Divali as "November Light Festival", so why the onslaught against Christmas?

[Pelican]

Nobody tries to rename Divali as "November Light Festival", so why the onslaught against Christmas?

Perhaps it's a conspiracy by greetings card companies?Ã, 


On the issue at hand, I was watching a documentary on multi-culturalism a long time ago and it took an interesting stance. It seemed to protray it somewhat like positive discrimination. We're trying so hard to be tolerant and encourage cultural diversity, when we're really just ending up segregating ourselves.

My own views, well I'm not entirely sure of them at the moment. This thread has made me think a lot. I would really like to think that everyone can just get along, but thats rather naive of me.Ã,  :

[Anarcho]

I've never heard of calling Christmas Winterval.  And I've never heard of making Christians call Christmas anything other than Christmas.  That wouldn't go over well in the US.  What I'm talking about is in the workplace, or in schools when there are people of different religons, refering to the "Christmas" season as the Holiday season.  Or just recognizing that people celebrate things other than Christmas.  You can't walk three feet around here with coming across something labeled "Christmas", so a little political correctness and tolerance doesn't automaticaly Kill the holiday.  I think it's more in spirit with the holiday, don't you think?

As for your Israel example...I would agree that it would be wonderful to share in the local celebrations and customs.  But having been in a similar situation, it's also just as nice to be able to share your own customs and celebrations with those that are different from you.

Farlander, even if you're only talking about schools, I still disagree with you.  Freedom of expression and Freedom of religion shouldn't end once you walk into a school.  So long as the teacher isn't talking religion, I don't see what the issue is.
Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree.

[modgeulator]

But who is actually trying to ban Christmas? As far as I'm aware it's the work of "politically correct" ex-Christians with bizarre guilt complexes. Morons that are acting on behalf of what they *assume* repressed minority groups want. While in reality these people not of the dominant culture/faith aren't in the slighest offended by our Christmas celebrations.

[SSH]

Our local Chinese and Indian resteraunts both have Christmas trees up, although I must say that trees are probably a hangover from the pagan winter solstice festival and so its maybe the Christians who should be the last ones having Christmas trees. Apparently there is a huge reduction this year in the number of Santa Clauses in shops becuase people are really now seeing Christmas as a consumer spending festival than ANY kind of beleif system, be it one originated by Coca-Cola, the Maccabean revolt or one originated by Jesus.

I must say its kind of sad and funny seeing kids programs doing their Christmas specials without any kind of reference to Christmas. Disney ones are the worst...

Although I also notice that any Chirstians who object to people celebrating the pagan festical of Halloween are branded as fundamentalist nuts.

[jetxl]

http://www.illwillpress.com/xmess.html
Look at this, because I agree with Foamy on most points.

Chrismas is "gezellig".
"Gezellig" is a Dutch word that is hard to translate. It's that comfortable feeling when you're hanging around with your friends.

[Babar]

It is kind of strange to be calling christmas something other than christmas. I mean, that is what it is called, changing its name won't change the holiday. Why should someone object to having other people celebrate christmas? It is just as weird as being bothered by other people's clothes.
I am immensely thankful that I used to be in an international school. In Ramadan, just for the fun of it some of the non-muslim students fasted. Even if they were not fasting, they had enough good sense not to tempt the students who were fasting by eating infront of them. On Eid (the muslim feast) we all asked the teachers for eidi (gift of money). Everyone celebrated and exchanged gifts on christmas - on the 25th and the 6th of January (I think) for the Coptic Christians. We even used to celebrate Diwali (although I think there were only 1 or 2 Hindu students). This was all in fun. No one was forced into including everyone in the party or attending all the celebrations. Nobody thought they were desecrating the sanctity of their religion by viewing other celebrations or joining in on them. We all learnt alot about each other, and had fun doing it.
I think this is a better method of multiculturalism than trying to mesh all the holidays in a spurt of political correctness. Referring to Christmas as "Winterval" and other such PC will just cause those who wish to celebrate it to do so in private. The gap of misunderstanding between cultures will never be bridged and even in countries with lots of different cultures all the cultures will stick with themselves and not really mix with the other cultures.

[Darth Mandarb]

No matter what anybody says and/or does I will NEVER stop calling it Christmas nor celebrating it how I want.Ã,  (There are still more of us who celebrate Christmas than any other faith in the US)

There was a protest at the Broward mall this week.Ã,  Christians were protesting because a local Jewish store owner has a minora painted in his shop window.Ã,  Yet the 30 Christian shop owners surrounding him aren't allowed to put up Christmas decorations in their places.

This is so hypocritical I want to vomit.

I mean ... isn't religion supposed to be about tolerance?Ã,  I don't care when I see other religion on display ... what I care about is when people of my faith can't express it without it being complained about and forbidden.Ã,  Isn't religious freedom the VERY reason people come to this country?

Again ... hypocritical.

It goes back to my point in my earlier post.Ã,  It seems more and more that the 'many' must suffer so as not to offend the 'few'.Ã,  Doesn't seem to matter that the 'many' are then offended.Ã,  As long as society panders to the 'few' to keep them happy.Ã,  (in case you can't tell I'm avoiding using the words 'majority' and 'minority' because people associate those words with race)

I can't wait until I open my office down here and have my first Christmas there.Ã,  I'm going to decorate it with so much Christmas stuff ... and I just hope somebody complains.

Tis the season ... bah humbug.

[Anarcho]

I have never heard of people outlawing the word "Christmas," and Darth's mall example is pretty extreme and a great example of people taking PC waaaay too far.  (though I must say, I really don't like the word Christmas anyway, as it comes from Christ's Mass, which in itself resulted from Church Fathers in the 4th century fixing the still unknown date of Jesus's birth around the old Roman Saturnalia festival--it was just the Christian leadership trying to usurp a traditional pagan celebration of Solstice!).

But let me make another example of what I'm okay with.  I just got my semi-weekly email from the DC Metropolitan Labor Council.  Its subject says, "SPECIAL UNION HOLIDAY EDITION."  Now why didn't they put "SPECIAL UNION CHRISTMAS EDITION."  Hmmm, I dunno, maybe because there are a lot of Jews and Muslims who get the email too, and it wouldn't make sense to send them a "SPECIAL CHRISTMAS EMAIL".  But does this email subject heading offend me?  Is it oppressing me?  IS THIS EMAIL SUBJECT HEADING KILLING CHRISTMAS!?!

No.

I can still send Christmas cards to my family and friends, put up a tree in my house, and wear a stupid green and red Christmas sweater to work if I want to.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to find a balance here.

[Nacho]

I think it's important and I don't get it... call me stupid, but, what's "PC" in this context?Ã, 

And... now we're asking a little bit of all... "minora"? My online translation does not seem to make the work with this particular one...

[Anarcho]

Sorry Farl, PC is short for "Politically Correct" or "Political Correctness".  You know, saying African American instead of Negro.  African American would be the PC term.

Darth meant Menorah, a candelabra (sp?) that has a lot of significance in the Jewish faith.

[Nacho]

Ahá, thanks...

So, if the rules say not for every religious item of any celebration, the minorah should be out. But in this case I'd see more logical to have both symbols of the celebrations, both Xmas items and Hannukah/jewish ones.

Actually celebrations are a so much logical dates to show this symbols. The rational agreement could be reached if all people could show its religious items just in that dates.

So, no crosses till Xmas. No Chaddors till Ramadan. No kippas till hannukah or Easter.

I should see that quite logical (and more important, I thing a majority would agree), whereas you're trying to impose something that does not count with the approval of the majority (At least in my country...)

[Darth Mandarb]

I have never heard of people outlawing the word "Christmas," and Darth's mall example is pretty extreme and a great example of people taking PC waaaay too far.Ã,  (though I must say, I really don't like the word Christmas anyway, as it comes from Christ's Mass, which in itself resulted from Church Fathers in the 4th century fixing the still unknown date of Jesus's birth around the old Roman Saturnalia festival--it was just the Christian leadership trying to usurp a traditional pagan celebration of Solstice!).

If you ask 100 kids what Christmas means, I'm guessing here, but not one of them would know that it was old world Christians usurping a pagen celebration.Ã,  To children it doesn't even have much to do with religion anymore other than it's the christians who celebrate it.Ã,  To most it's a time ofÃ,  year where you celebrate and give gifts and be cheerful and wait for Santa Claus.

My point was that Christians make up more than 70% of the population of this country ... and Christmas is a Christian holiday.Ã,  We should be able to make the country look like one big candy cane and Christmas tree every December.Ã,  Not only should we be allowed to do this we should do it.

Of course ... we're no longer talking about multiculturalism in Europe

I'm really not trying to piss anybody off ... so if I've offended anybody let me just say "Merry Christmas!!!"

[Anarcho]

No, what I was saying is that Christmas has little to do with the word, but with the traditions we still observe, many of which have carried down "through the ages." 

[RickJ]

First of all no one has bothered to define what is meant by multiculturism.  Multiculturalism is not new, it's been around for a long time.  In the US it's been there since the beginning.   What's new is the leftist version, currently in fashion in the US, that is based on some flawed presumptions and I assume that is what we are talking about here.

• All cultures are exactly equal and cannot be judged by any measure
  
  
• Diversity is a good unto itself and needs no explanation or justification
  
  
• Practice tolerance of all things.
  
  All cultures are exactly equal
  While it's true that one's own culture influences one's opinion about other cultures,  making objective assements difficult, it is not impossible to make such assements.   For example, one could ask how well does this culture provide for it's members vs another culture.  Which has growing dynamic and growing ecnomonies?  How well or poorly are the sick, young, old, and weak treated?  How are women treated?   How many freedoms are restricted and to what extent.  What is the average life-span,  mortality rates,  frequency and severity of disease, etc.  I could go on and on but I think you get the idea.  One final test I personally use;  I sometimes look at things to judge people actions form other cultures is to use
  
  Diversity is a good unto itself...
  Why?  Diversity of what?  It certainly is not diversity of opinion, thought, or ideas is it? Anarcho, in his very first post labeled anyone who disagrees with him a cave dweller.  IMHO, diversity, as practiced in the US, is a means by which universities and govermental entities, etc avoid the embarassment of having to admit to their racialy discriminatory policies.
  
  Practice tolerance of all things...
  Except dissent!  Dissenters and the politically incorrect are not to be tolerated.  Their areguments are not to be listened to nor challenged in a logical manner.  Call them cave dwellers, bigots, idoits, etc.  Attack them personally so as to discredit their ideas. etc...
  
  Bottom Line
  I think when you visit someone's home you should follow the rules and customs of that person's home.  The same goes when you visit someone's country.   If you don't like the way it is there then just don't go.     
  
  
  

[Anarcho]

First of all no one has bothered to define what is meant by multiculturism. 

Did you read the whole thread?  Check out the first post on page 2.  You seem to be confusing multiculturalism with cultural relativism.

Anarcho, in his very first post labeled anyone who disagrees with him a cave dweller.

Did you read what I said?  I was talking in reference to friends of mine, who would worry about 3rd world debt, discuss environmental issues ad nausea, and be able to expertly discuss foreign affairs, but when it came to immigrants living in their back yard, reverted to very close-minded and intolerant positions.  In reference to these people...whom I'm friends with... that I'm specifically talking about...I think their opinions are backwards.  I don't think anyone who disagrees with me is a stone dweller.  Read what I wrote before making bullshit accusations.

Except dissent!  Dissenters and the politically incorrect are not to be tolerated.  Their areguments are not to be listened to nor challenged in a logical manner.  Call them cave dwellers, bigots, idoits, etc.  Attack them personally so as to discredit their ideas.

What?!  I've said a number of times that there's nothing better than healthy debate, and that I'm trying to understand people's point of view.  When has anyone been personally attacked, other than in your previous post?

I think when you visit someone's home you should follow the rules and customs of that person's home.  The same goes when you visit someone's country.   If you don't like the way it is there then just don't go. 

Of course someone visiting a persons home should follow the rules and customs of the home, but what about respecting the rules and customs of the visitors?  What are we even talking about here?  Are we talking about viels?  Are the 5 to 6 MILLION Muslims living in France ALL visitors?  I just think that the French also have to respect their customs as well.