Multiculturalism in Europe

[Pumaman]

I would really like to think that everyone can just get along, but thats rather naive of me.  :

That's precisely what I've always felt. Personally, I don't understand why people have all these conflicts and hate each other so strongly just because they're of a different religion or culture. Situations like the Isreal / Palestine thing and the Northern Ireland Protestant / Catholic thing, always have puzzled me slightly, and "why can't you just get along" seems such an easy answer.

What I'm talking about is in the workplace, or in schools when there are people of different religons, refering to the "Christmas" season as the Holiday season.  Or just recognizing that people celebrate things other than Christmas.  You can't walk three feet around here with coming across something labeled "Christmas", so a little political correctness and tolerance doesn't automaticaly Kill the holiday.

If somebody wants to refer to Christmas as "the holiday season", that's fine with me -- just don't try and force everyone to do the same, by trying to make Christmas into an offensive word.

One of my friends who is Hindu celebrates Christmas, but he still celebrates Diwali. Another friend who's a Muslim also celebrates Christmas, but that doesn't stop him celebrating Ramadan. They don't celebrate Christmas in a religious way, but as a holiday season to enjoy. They call it "Christmas", because that's what its name is.

But who is actually trying to ban Christmas? As far as I'm aware it's the work of "politically correct" ex-Christians with bizarre guilt complexes. Morons that are acting on behalf of what they *assume* repressed minority groups want. While in reality these people not of the dominant culture/faith aren't in the slighest offended by our Christmas celebrations.

Precisely.

[Nacho]

Of course someone visiting a persons home should follow the rules and customs of the home, but what about respecting the rules and customs of the visitors?Ã,  What are we even talking about here?Ã,  Are we talking about viels?Ã,  Are the 5 to 6 MILLION Muslims living in France ALL visitors?Ã,  I just think that the French also have to respect their customs as well.

Are you really aware of the situation in France? The law says no for ANY religious showings in schools. Why is the muslim community the ony who feels attacked? Aren't we being witnesses of a community which has some amount on member who do not accept the rules of the game? You've spent half of the thread saying "equality", but what you're deffending is a POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION in their very case.

[Anarcho]

Maybe Muslims are the most vocal about he law because the law was created specifically with Muslims in mind.  I'm no expert, but every article I've read about the French law states that they were created in order to stem off what is viewed as growing Islamic fundamentalism in France.  I would think that if a law was created to specifically take away YOUR rights, you would be the most vocal about it.

Regarding Muslims being the only people who have a problem with the law, you're just wrong.  Since the beginning, some Sikh boys also refused to take off their turbans and under-turbans:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/world/newsid_3945000/3945851.stm

As for people of other faiths having a problem with it, I don't know.  Perhaps there isn't a sizeable hasidic Jewish population (who are strict in wearing skullcaps), or perhaps they stick to private schools.  I know that if they tried to do such a thing in the US, the Jewish population would be outraged, as there is a sizeable population of Jews living in the US.

[Nacho]

He... If you're powerfull enough to enter into other people's minds, I won't dare to discuss with you... 

[Anarcho]

There's a difference between reading people's minds, and being familiar with the political realities of a nation.  In a country where the debate isn't about wearing religious headwear, but whether or not teachers should lead students in prayer, I can pretty much guarantee that people would go nuts if they tried to forbid religious attire in school.

[Nacho]

In that law there was a paragraph sayng that the girls' trunks which hips are too short and allow the elastic tapes of the underwear to be seen were going to be prohibited.

As the muslins girls do not wear that kind of trunks, I could say that "I know enough of political realities" to say it is a paragraph aimed to christian girls.

[Anarcho]

um....ok....

[Matchew]

You know what, you're right, I mean I live in little old Ireland, or as they say in Deutschland, "Scheise Irland land of mist", such a lovely language but as we say in Ireland "Ta a lan duine gorm san Eireann ach, ta teifigh an rud is measa" ( to those who don't speak Irish you're better off  not knowing)it's not fair and I don't believe it ( We're not all racists but some small minded freaks up in little towns can't stand the sight of foreigners) Even earlier this year we had a referendum to take away the right of foreigners to become instant citizens when they give birth here, and it was passed! I was disgusted and I don't think it was fair. As regards religious symbols in schools, I think it's unwise to take away such strong symbols of who we are (that and I don't want to have to lift that huge statue of the virgin mary out of my school!) coming from a predominately catholic country whose schools are almost completely catholic based, I think it would be a farce. I've lots of muslim friends and they are some of the nicest guys I have met, last year my friend Ali Ahktar gave my mother a christmas cake for cryin out loud! It's about time we all grew up.

By the way, Rammstein suck
(that wasn't racist I just hate their "music" ich will and all)
but then again so do u2 so who am I?

[Anarcho]

Wow, they really took away citizenship rights from people born in Ireland?  There has to be more to it than that, but still...

[Esseb]

I read it as people giving birth, not being born. I can't imagine it could be legally made retroactive either.

Do you have any links to stories describing it, Matchew?

[Matchew]

Geez I dunno, well to start, the kids being born are kids whose parents are not citizens to begin with, they say they were using it as a back door into the EU many refugees and asylum seekers living in the aid camps and small towns found it easier considering it takes ages to get a valid passport cause our government are ass***es and they think a new mercedes every year is a valid expense (that ahd our taoseach's* daughter's wedding to a pop star in france) the only links I can think of would be found on the Irish times website, but it'll take some searching do a google search specific to Irish websites and you should find something. or look at www.ireland.ie You'll find loads there. good luck


P.S. Taoseach is the irish equivalent of a prime minister or head asshole for the layman

[Nacho]

I've lots of muslim friends and they are some of the nicest guys I have met

Does that deffense of "how nice the muslims are" mean that you think that everyone here deffending not having symbols in schools think muslims "are not nice" you can't be more wrong, mate...

What has been discussed here is not "if they're nice or not", or if they're "better or worse" than us. What has been discussed here is what makes them special for not accomplishing laws which are accepted by a vast majority of the people in the countries they live.

[Las Naranjas]

Actually, to be completely specific, multiculturalism isn't just multi ethnicity, it actually refers to a series of government policy initiatives designed to promote an integrated society whilst retaining differences.

That's clearly reflected in the history of the term, since the multi is in contrast to the bi in teh old Canadian policy of biculturalism, reflecting the Francophonic and Anglophonic spheres of the country, until it became apparent there were more than just those two spheres.

Multiculturalism does not just refer to the mixing of cultures or a society made up of different ethnicities, used in it's proper and correct context, it refers to a kind of government policy first adopted by Canada and subsequently adopted to varying degrees by other countries.

I know people commonly use multiculturalism to refer to the social force, but the term does refer to a form of policy that can arise as a result of the force.

[MoodyBlues]

Oooo!  I did an research paper on the topic of religious expression in French public schools last year.  When I have time, I'll have to look through all these posts.  Lots of interesting arguments here.

[dooli-girl]

There is a difference between religious symbols like wearing crosses and the scarves that muslim women use to cover their heads. Wearing the cross is out of choice. Muslims are not given any choice in the covering of hair. It is the law for them. That is why they are so forceful about it.

[Nacho]

It is a religious law which collides with a law in the French civil code. Christians also have the law of not eating meat on fridays and I don't accomplish it...

Anyway I don't really know why are we discussing, in Spain there is a million of muslims and only one complained in such degree of not taking his daughter to school. I guess in France there must be simillar because muslims are much pragmatic as the image of religious die hard we're giving to them here.

The problem that IMO sublies here is that this year the birth rate in Spain has been 60 % for foreign babies in front of 40 % for nationals. Nationals must give the image of "You are welcome here, we need you, we like your culture too... but make an effort of trying to integrate in this society".

Because if not the next Spanish generation will be islamist in the degree of islamism they had in their original countries. And we can deal with multiculturalism, but not with a colonization which may change the spirit an the signs of identity of our country.

I am sure some of the "Politically correct" guys will gladly reply "And whats the problem of Spain being islamic in the next generation, nah nah nah nah?". It's very easy to say to a country "hey! became muslim! It isn't that bad!" when you're a thousand milles away.... And I could really agree with them if the incoming muslims were from Casablanca, Egypt, Turkey... but what is coming here is inmigration from Magreb, an arid land in the middle of Sahara which has one of the most severes sources of radical islam in the lands of muslim religion. Muslims who do not follow a "sensible mahometan" religion, but anotherÃ,  later branch called "sharia" which includes amputation the clits of women as they born because "such a source of pleasure for women is sin". That sharia includes "pearls" in its laws as lapidation for women for adultery and cutting the hands of the thieves. A way of living which allows men to treat women as a possession who must cover his face with a veil and live as a servant to the husband. A branch of Islamism who does not follow the lines of the main muslim council, a branch which allows every radical to become an Imam and say whatever bunch of no senses he likes, and his congregation, following Sharia, will have to obbey..

I don't know if you, "Politically Correct" guys, know that the events of the 11-m were conceived in the Mosque of Madrid, the bigger in Spain. A mosque kept with the money paid by radicals Saudis, of the wahaby islamist branch, and that in their walls speeches talking about the "holy Jihad" were, not just allowed, but healed.

I don't know if you, "Politically Correct" guys, know that the Imam of Barcelona, the second bigger in Spain, published a book with a report of which objects to use and where to hit a woman for not leaving her marks, so the police won't be able to punish them in virtue of the "pusillanumous" occidental laws which do not recognise the superioity of the man in front of the woman.

And I am not talking of mad imams talking in garages. I am talking of the high Imam of Madrid and the high Imam of Barcelona, regarding a congregation of more than 500,000 accollites.Ã,  Do you imagine what would happen if the Ku Kux Klan was the main financier of radical churchs in Arabia Saudi? Do you imagine the social conflicts may occur in the born rate in arabia saudi was 60% for texans immigrants and 40% for Saudis? Do you imagine what could happen if the main Bishops of that KKK churchs start to say bullshit that 500,000 of their accollites must follow.

Do you imagine how would the Saudis react if they make a law for not making any kind religious shows in the schools and the texas would go on wearing his offensive cowboy hat?

Do you say that muslims women do wear their chaddor voluntarilly? I say that they do their chaddors "voluntarilly".

Many of you are using sentences as "lack of knowleadge" about Islam to put those who are against some forms of it down. As you can see, I am perfectly able to know about Islam, to differenciate Wahabism of mahometanism. I am perfectly able to differenciate between my friends Abdul, Saed, Yussuf or Rachid, who are coming from the north of Morocco, from the neighbour of the 3rd plant who forces his daughter to wear a chaddor and does not want to learn talking spanish.

I think it's more a problem of some of you, PC guys, who are really showing a lack of knowleadge of the real situation. Now, dare to make a post telling how "lovelly your muslim friend is" or that "Islam is in his majority a very respectful religion which bla bla bla..." The problem is that I am not attacking THAT Islam, but the other one.

And now, counter attack me saying "there are christians who kill abortive doctors... We are bad too". Do you really think that my reluctances to a specific sources of Islam and to a very specific branch of it make me feel a christian extremist who do like doctors to be killed? I think you are being taking by the spiral of the debate if you think so, because the real message that is in my post is "fuck all the extremists" no matter which color they have.

And now, as a final weapon to throw at me, you could allways say that the girls wearing chaddor are not the reflect of that "bad islam" I painted. There can be some specific cases in Granada or the Spanish colonies in North Africa where that custom has been took for generations of spanish muslims and it does not mean "submission to god" of being forced by the father, but in 99 percent of the new inmigration comming from Magreb, it is.

You could tell me that "you've read an article denying that"... bullshit. I've seen it. I've seen that girls alone in the corner in the yards of the schools, talking to nobody. The PC wave may say "That's because the other christians guys in school are a bunch of racists!" So, fuck you for judging the youth in my country without knowleadge because that's not true. There is allways a group of good people in each class who wants to stablish relations with those girls, but they don't allow... And the group of good people is allways much bigger that the tiny un-brained one who is unkind with that girls. But that girls simply don't make the effort of making an step of the road to integration. I know I can't blame them personally, I must blameit to their parent and to the disgusting branch of Islam which allows that. THAT Islam make me sick. Islam doesn't, but that specific wave does.

I simply won't undestand why some of the girls here will go on deffending chaddors now they know what it is a symbol about.

About all of those who have deffending "a totally freedom of religious symbols", you're not here. You don't know what is happening. You don't work as a valid speaker anymore.

And about muslims AGSers who are deffending Islam against my opinion... Think it twice. I am not agains Islamism, the Coran, your believs or your costumes. You must recognise that the whole aspect of Islam has a big problem in front the Roman apostolic religion, and it's preciselly that it has no "Rome" a defined central organ which keep all the religious manifestations coherent. That causes that there may be specific loctions were Islam is completelly different to the think that you know. Before hoisting the flag of Islam and auto-proclaiming you experts because you are muslms, have in mind that I may had more contact with those radical Islam coming from Magreb that you. I am against that brach of islamism that is making all of you look like crap for all the rest of the world. Actually it only shares with the religion you respect and love the name. If you are sensible you should be with me expressing the differences of your totally respectfully beliefs and the other.

I am tired of this. I will be replied that "chaddor is not that" and all that things, but I've reached the conclussion you don't know to realise I am talking of a very specific case located in a very specific geographic point, which are Spain, France and some other countries in centre of Europe which are receiving magrebins. And you won't realise of that because you're too busy making everybody know you are politically correct and that you are a die hard deffender minorities. If you can't realise that "chaddor" is just a first step into more sever forms of woman repression like velis or burkas, I simply can't go on.

But have in mind that you're not deffending the right of the minorities. You're deffending the symbol of the opression of woman. And there is an attempt to make at least one tiny space of freedom for they, called school, where that symbols are not allowed. But you're denying them even that.

[Babar]

Hey Farlander.... I completely agree with you....on some points . There are alot of extremists who make the world think that their oppressive version of Islam is correct. I wouldn't want them to be in control of any country. I had to walk out of a mosque on one Friday because the Imam started talking about how the woman's correct place is worshipping in the kitchen. I find myself defending Islam as much from these type of extremists as those on the opposite side of the coin. However, you can't deny everyone the use of the chadur/shawl/scarf just because a few people force their daughters to where them. What about those who wish to wear it out of their own choice? What about those who wish to be good muslims? Just because you wish to eat meat on Friday, doesn't mean everyone is willing to sacrifice their religion. Covering the hair doesn't have to be a symbol of oppression.
Sorry if I pushed you too much. I was just trying to understand where you were coming from, and I think I finally did.

[Nacho]

Yeah, as said, in many places the chaddor is just a costume that as many harmless costumes has to be respected and understood, I don't have any kind of bad feeling when I see women in Egypt, Pakistan, Iraq... as I haven't complained about hindis wearing turbants... But well, Magreb is a very specific point and I have the stong feeling that most of this girls from Magreb who wear chaddor here are willing to take it out and be as close that they can be in the occidental country they're living in, which doesn't mean that they want toÃ,  lose a bit of their own culture.

The example are girls in Granada or in Ceuta or Melilla, spanish colonies in Africa. Ot the girls in Casablanca, who can dress as occidental girls if they're going to a disco, and with chaddor if they're going to a Mosque.

The main difference is that you can see in her faces, in her eyes, they're dressing like that because they want. the consequence, is that occidentals who have to deal with this girls inmediatelly lose the reluctances they may had.

I don't know if I gave the impression that I am againt all muslim symbolism because I think it's "ancient or stupid". Costumes can't be "ancient or stupid", because the word costume implies turning back to the ancient origins, which can't be stupid. Actually, I don't see many differences between muslims expressing their religiousity and some Christians, and I must say that seeing millions of muslims rounding that Ka'ba Mosque in La Meca is so much confortable that some of the expressions of heart-breaking pain I see in Easter in Seville.

If I gave that impression I really failed of expressing myself in the early stages of this thread.

Glad to see I am finally making it clear.

*Edit* And no! You haven't pushed me too much! I am waiting till the come back of DGMacPhee for that! 

[Matchew]

I've lots of muslim friends and they are some of the nicest guys I have met

Does that deffense of "how nice the muslims are" mean that you think that everyone here deffending not having symbols in schools think muslims "are not nice" you can't be more wrong, mate...

What has been discussed here is not "if they're nice or not", or if they're "better or worse" than us. What has been discussed here is what makes them special for not accomplishing laws which are accepted by a vast majority of the people in the countries they live.

Yeah but, that wasn't what I was getting at either, I was just expressing how the idea of banishing religious symbols in schools is an act of (subliminal) fear. I'm not making any broad or bold statements when I say this but, I was explaining that people are people and there's nothing to be afraid of.
And secondly, my country is not as culturally diverse as yours, it has only begun to expand in this regard in the past ten years or so, so grow a brain and cop on. We are still naiive and are only growing as a state (although our economy is doing grand) and Ireland will not be fully culturally aware for some time.
I recently participated in a debate on this subject in UCD in Dublin, and I learned that although we may insist on displaying our religious symbols with pride, we seem intimidated by those who are different from us. It's childish I understand this, but if you were raised with kids the same as you all the time, of course you would have your doubts and suspicions about those who are different (it's human nature after all) and I feel that the simplest way of understanding this reality is by embracing those who are different and instead of simply deciding that you don't like those who are different, you should be curious, ask questions and relax.



we're all God's children.


P.S. settle down it's only a mild discussion.

P.P.S. by the way farlander, I asked my dad who'se an ex-clergyman about the whole meat being forbidden on a friday and he told me that sex was also forbidden, but the idea was long abandoned about 100 years ago because back then meat and sex were luxuries, and they costed a lot of moolah, but these days everything is feckin ( no that is not the bad word with the "U" in it , it's a lovely Irish word see father ted for details) expensive, at least in Ireland it is anyway. " a euro for a bag of crisps, ya must be bloody mad in the head, fer feck sake ye have me beggared"

[Las Naranjas]

There's also a really really juicy irony in people in Ireland complaining about migrants