Women still aren't getting it. [regarding abuse]

[TheYak]

Perhaps inspired by Snake's soul-bearing thread, I decided to garner some input about something very much affecting my life at the moment.

For those who only read the first couple of sentences of a post; my sister's being abused by her husband.  The first phone call about it scared the hell out of me.  I was utterly sympathetic until she started muttering things that sounded like something from a crappy TV drama (Lifetime channel here, dunno about international equivalents).  She makes excuses for him, says she brings it upon herself, says she doesn't know how she can make it on her own, says she doesn't want anyone to physically do anything about it - that it's under control, but it keeps happening. 

I bluntly encouraged her to leave him (or technically, to kick him the f__k out and ship his ass back to Florida).  I offered her many alternatives as far as placed to go: There are organizations that can provide financial, legal, and boarding support.  I told her she could go back to my parents' place, stay with me, and I even have some friends offering the same (so that she'd be someplace untraceable by him, just in case she had something further to fear).

This issue was very personal since my ex-wife's first husband was a major (think sociopathic here) spouse-abuser.  She's still got wounds (physical and mental) that'll never heal. 

My instinct, my emotion tells me to beat the sh_t out of him until he's incapacitated.  However, I've never struck someone in anger in my life.  Physically and experience-wise, I wouldn't stand much of a chance.  Fortunately, the logical part of my mind informs me that even if I did succeed, I'd probably end up in prison - accomplishing nothing but a little vengeance (and a good heaping stockpile of irony to boot). 

I'm not sure how the law works in other countries, and some US states may differ but at least here, even if I called the police and she had a gaping head wound and bruises, they couldn't do anything unless she pressed charges - if they showed up at her place at all.  All that would accomplish would be to make the abuse potentially more life-threatening.  She doesn't seem to want advice or alternatives but nothing more than a sympathetic ear, but how long can you stay sympathetic to a person in quicksand who ignores the ropes you keep throwing them and continues bemoaning their fate?  I probably sound harsh but I'm immensely pissed off at him and very frustrated with her.

We're in the 2000's now.  Haven't we seen/heard enough educational programming, enough "serious issue episodes" of sit-coms, enough made-for-tv movies that everybody realizes they've got a choice? If nothing else, don't they realize they're mimicking the characters portrayed in situation after situation that they're eventually able to escape from?

If you've got any decent advice, unique insights, experiences, education about this issue from other places, or just want to join in shaking your head - please reply.  And I don't mean to say that only women are abused..  I'm well aware that kids of all ages and some men are abused (physically or mentally).  I've had close encounters with those sorts of things as well.   Currently, I'm just frustrated that a full-grown, intelligent, capable adult feels so helpless and doesn't/can't/won't do a damned thing about it.

[modified topic title so it wouldn't act as an inflamatory attention-getter as much]

[shbaz]

I think there's a control issue here.. she seems to be afraid to take charge of her own life, she wants and feels like she needs someone else to do it for her. People who don't really have a passion or ambition tend to get this way because they ride someone elses to fill the gap (regardless of how little passion or ambition this guy actually has) and to feel less useless, because at least that way they're serving someone's ambition.

I think the only way to get her out of this is if you make her get out of it. If you're not willing to do that or to find someone else who is, I still wouldn't feel bad about it. It really can't be blamed on someone else forever. The only way she'll ever get reality is to be removed forcibly from the situation. Some people let emotion prevail over logic too much, you're going to need to do the thinking for her and when she's safe and able to reflect sensibly she'll really begin to understand.

Seems like I'm not the only one who's having awful girl problems right now - I promise I'm not going to start a thread about it though.

[Peter Thomas]

God, that's awful, Yak. It must be horrible having nothing tangible to do to show her the reality of what's going on.

I've had a number of [female] friends/work colleagues/aquaintances etc who I've been 99% sure were being abused by the male figures in their lives. It was near impossible to get any of them to open up about it, and on the odd occassion that they DID say something, it was always followed by something like "but it never would've happened if I'd just been more patient and not worried that he was at the pub all night". It always sounded so stupid to me, but I knew that to them it was a very real reason.

As for advice, there's really nothing anyone can say that you wouldn't know or haven't tried. You've done everything in your power (aside getting physically involved, which I would waggle my index finger at), so the only thing you can do is to keep showing her options, without being patronizing or dictatorly about it.

I wish there was more we could do. I really do. Best of luck, yak.

[Kinoko]

I'm lucky enough to have never been in either your situation or hers, but I can say that I do agree with the frustration. It's incredibly that these people have grown up knowing all the same cliches surrounding these situations as we have, and yet they continue to display them without seeming to realise. It really, REALLY makes me angry when I hear about these situations...

I'm in a slightly similar situation with a dear friend who's self abusing (taking pills, cutting herself, etc...). It really shocked me and came out of nowhere, and I didn't want to do the wrong thing so I looked it up on the net and got some advice from people doing the same thing, who said, "Just be a good friend to her and let her know you're there to listen to her problems, etc...". I did that, and I keep doing it over and over, and still absolutely zilch has changed. She has much closer friends than I doing the same, and they're even more frustrated than I am. I've tried logically going through all her problems and telling her that she's okay, and countless other things and it hasn't changed a thing. She's still alive, which is good, but this has been going on for about a year now and seems to only get worse no matter what people do.

I'd like to say I have some solution, but I don't. I'm still scared every single day I'll hear that she's killed herself. My biggest problem with this girl is that I can't physically be with her because she's in another country.

I would say that this is where you have a slight advantage, but even so, you have to convince HER which is the tough part.

As much as these situations anger and frustrate me, when I imagine my current partner hitting me... I honestly don't know what I'd do. I'd like to say I'd kick his ass out on the doorstep, steal his credit cards and get myself a hero, not a zero. The reality of it is that I'd be confused and I know without a doubt that I'd want to help him. I'd still love him, I know that, and I'd want to help him overcome his problem. I think there are lots of situations... if you're with an abusive partner you don't really love, a lot of women simply stay with them out of fear, not knowing what to do and lack of self confidence and belief. I think there are probably situations where the abused really do still love their abusive partner, and in those cases they probably stay (also because of the above reasons) because they don't want to leave their partner's side, and abandon them. They probably feel they can change them and might even be afraid of their partner harming themselves if they leave.

Do you think your sister still loves her partner? Is he essentially a good man or do you think he really is just a bastard?

I can only offer these thoughts, sorry. Solutions are a hard thing to think of. I remember thinking these situations were so simple when I was a teen but now, when you think of real people in real situations, you realise you have to tread a little more carefully.

Perhaps if you think he's essentially a good guy with an anger problem, you can get a lot of people together for an intervention...?

[TheYak]

I appreciate the rapid and well thought-out replies.  About all I can do is be there for her, it's true.  I can try to show her options and maybe provide a bit of self-esteem boost. 

Shbaz, your lack of ambition theory sounds like a very near miss.  I mean to say that it's quite close but not quite it.  She got ambition out the ass, always busy, always with new projects, has a couple of degrees (Ad Gfx, cooking, bible-college youth counselor cert) and just oozes self-betterment and ambition.  She still states that she doesn't think she can employ herself viably without him and seems to have all this great stuff going for her but only so she can support his career (motorcycle salesman, recent employee).

Peter, the best comment you had is that I have to remind myself not to be patronizing or dictatorly.  I find it's quite easy to lapse into either just to avoid feeling impotent.  I like helping people.  If it's someone I care about, I need to help them if I possibly can.  Standing by, hoping for the best and being basically useless is horrible.. just f-ing horrible. That "it wouldn't have happened if I'd just" was another phrase I've heard, only it revolved around her making a big deal out of having discovered him with porn.

Kinoko, while it may not seem relevant at first glance, I think there are a lot of similarities between the two situations.  One bit felt very close-to-home... the worrying.  By the time I/she/someone does something about it, will he already have taken it too far (permanent damage or death)? My gut shakes just typing that out.  I'm not sure if she still loves him or not - she claims to.  Is he a good person? Hell no.  I couldn't stand the guy at first meet but I figured it was my brotherly protectiveness coming into play.  After seeing him treat my sister well (in company only, apparently), I tried my best to respect him despite a past of promiscuity, drug-use, alcoholism, theft and violence.  He was supposedly changing all those things for her . . . seems he's kept them all going (or attempting to). 

Ugh.  Off to bed.. finding it hard to sleep recently.

[DCillusion]

Why don't you get a few of your friends & mug him one night?

Don't tell anybody, not your sister, anybody.  Rough him up good & he'll be out for a while, (no one beats their wife in with 2 broken arms.  He's not going to want a long investigation, or even a lot of cops coming over; so you're in the clear.

I knew some people who did it , & the guy actually turned himself around.

[DragonRose]

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!

DCillusion, that is frankly the STUPIDEST idea I've ever heard! The problem is not entirely with him. SHE is the one who needs help to be strong enough to get away. She will not thank someone for beating up her boyfriend. She'd probably turn against whoever did it. And I don't think that the goal of this excercise is to get her to hate the people who are trying to help her and become even more involved with the guy who is abusing her.

[edmundito]

It could be hard to understand from reading your post why your sister would stay with that asshole in the first place, unless he's one rich mother,  but I think that sometimes there is a even greater fear, which seems that a lot of women have, and it's the fear of being alone, independent, and single. And it's unbelieveable on how they'll put up with anything just so that they are not alone. And even if she loves back, for some crazy reason, she should realize that he is never going to be a gentle guy.

My own younger sister dated all kinds of dumbasses, but from the way she said things on why she would put up with them I noticed that it was just because she didn't want to be alone. I think she's learned a bit; she's only 18, so she's got a long way to learn anyway, and so do I, and so do many people.

I think you should encourage your sister as much as you can, and let her know that you're really worried and that you care, a lot (it's enough to post something in this forum). Guide her to the strength she needs.

[Oneway]

That obsolutely sucks Yak. I never liked my borther in law either, but at least he's been decent to my sis. I can't imagine how it must feel to be that powerless while you see your loved ones get hurt.

Normally i wouldn't be one to advice any drastic measures.
However, your sister is in a situation that:
1) Will NOT go away by itself
2) Will NOT go away by being there for her when she it being hit again
3) Disables her to actually see the situation objectively en therefore she is unable to see who is actually causing this mess.

She said that it's probably all her fault and this is a very common excuse that victims of domestic violence use. As long as the pattern is repeating, she will never be able to break free of it.
And ask yourself honestly: Is that what you want too? To listen to her crying every time she's been abused again? Untill either you or he end the situation with a drastic form of violence? You know she won't be the one to end it.

Setting aside her role as victim for a moment here i'd like to point out something else. I truely hope you will understand what i'm saying as this is very much open to misinterpretation (just know that am not trying to devalue any of her pain or mental damage).
As long as she refuses to not act against that abusing scumbag of hers, all she can do is express her pain and fear with the ones she loves. On top of that she is very clear about not wanting anyone or anything to try to change the situation.
So while she is expressing her pain and in effect burdening you with it aswell, she won't allow for you to do anything about it. Effectively, this is a form of abuse aswell. In fact, she is abusing you, every times she cries on your shoulder or is showing you her brouses and not allowing you a way to stop being hurt.
And this is where you have the right and duty to act.

It is my very strong opinion that there will only be change in the situation when she herself can see and realise that physical abuse is not acceptable or a valid response to anything she might have done. I already repeated that she herself in powerless to change this situation. You and all her other loved ones need to make this happen for her. You need to take her life in your hands and take control for a while, as long as she needs to adjust to a normal situation and be able to see the ABnormality of her spouse's behaviour.
In effect, you need to go there and pack some suitcases and bring her along. You need to show her love, work on her self-worth and try to give a life that is as normal as possible. She needs to be able to review her life without the dominant role of her current partner and decide what her role has been in all this.
Meanwhile, the abuser will have to be kept at a distance. If it is possible to reason with him, explain your actions clearly. There is however no point in debating it with him because he won't be mentally able to see it your way.

Only then will she be truely able to see the situation objectively and make her decisions accordingly.

Whatever you do, good luck!

[Ozwalled]

I'm a very "avoidant strategy" kind of person, I guess, but it's only because I've found some degree of success in doingso in the past.

What I'm getting at is this: get her away from him. Don't make it seem like a permanent thing, though. Just try to get her out more. If she's living anywhere near where you are, take her out for something to eat more often, go on little short trips more often... WHATEVER. Anything to make sure she's not around him as much. Take these opportunities to let her open up. It'll be frustrating to listen to, but remember that you ARE helping, even though it may not be obvious. Especially if this abuse has been going on for some time now, she'll be experiencing feelings of helplessness and see no real alternatives. It's your job to present her with some good, plausible options. I'd not present her with too many, either, so it doesn't seem like you're just grasping at straws. Try to have a few fairly well-thought out "plans" that have some interesting ideas in them and some vivid imagery so that they stick with her for awhile.

It'd probably also be worth your whille to try to get to know some women who have gone through similar experiences (probably not an easy task, but the local women's shelters may be able to help) and ask them about what they did to break the cycle and escape from their situation. This will help you arm yourself with information that you can relay onto your sister, be it in terms of advice or "I know this woman who..." kind of anecdotal information. You may even want to get ahold of your ex-wife and ask her to talk to your sister, given her experience in these matters.

And always remember: as Kinoko sort of alluded to, it's one thing to think "how can this even happen?", but when you're the one who's being abused by someone you love and trust, it's a whole different ballgame.

That's all I got right now. I'm not saying that any of this will help -- I'm only offering what my heart had to say. I wish you and your sister the very best in resolving this ugly situation.

[MoodyBlues]

It's infuriating that the law doesn't try to prevent "domestic disputes" like this.  Makes me think we're all still living in the 1850s.  Are you sure that the police have such little power to prevent abuse?

I'm afraid I can't be of much help.  However, you might consider showing her the other posts.  Maybe then she'll realize that complete strangers see the situation as clearly as you do.

Be sure to complement her, too.  Don't always dwell on the abuse; empower her subtlely, if only just a little, with encouraging words.

I hope she finds the courage to save herself.  Good luck to both of you, God bless.

[Andail]

That's pretty awful to hear, Yakspit. I have a sister a few years younger than me, and I just can't imagine what I'd do. My first impulse would be to confront him, maybe bring some friends and some cans of pepper spray or whatever, just because I'd be so fucking god-awful angry, and break the guys arms.
Of course, it wouldn't be a good solution.

The phenomenon of women abuse won't go away until society has fundamentally change, which won't happen until we teach the younger generation the meaning of equality and human respect. We can't beat sense into women
abuser; we can't spray water on the top of the flames and expect the fire to die.
I don't know exactly what's going on in the world today, but it makes young women abuse themselves, cut themselves, starve themselves and spend too much freaking time with monsters who've tricked them into believing that they actually need them. Some false infernal sense of safety.

In Sweden, there are networks of men spreading out, men who take a stand against violence towards women, I don't know how much difference they've made as of yet, but it's good news nonetheless. They have had some local demonstrations as well, but I worked those particular days and couldn't attend.
It's a huge problem in Sweden anyway, and the police can't do much about it.

Most advice given above are pretty sound; spend time with her, talk to her, try to give her the self esteem she need to break free. Of course, if the case gets too ugly, and he resorts to more violence, you will have to do something more drastic, perhaps get a really good lawyer, collect some evidence, video-tape the whole thing, I don't really know. I don't know how american justice works.

Good luck anyway.

[YOke]

I don't think the issue at hand is as much the physical abuse, as it is the psychological abuse that makes her think she deserves it.
As I have never heard of someone being beaten up carefully you should handle this as a life or death situation. Much like if she was a drug addict. Like he was a drug she feels that she can't live without him, but still he hurts her and is no good for her.
I would reccomend an intervention where you and her closest friends and family (and of course a psychologist or whatever applies) get together and tell her that she can't let this go on.
Her life is possibly at risk and her quality of life is already damaged. Do something now!

[Barbarian]

 I see most other people here have already offered  some good advice.  So, knowing from life experience of dealing with such similar problems with a family member, I guess I might offer some words of advice:

Continue to let that person know you care about them, and are willing to help them in whatever way you're able to.

But, that being said, sometime you may just have to come to this conclusion "Sometimes you are not able to really help a person until they are willing to help themself."

You can't live other people's lives for them, they ultimately have to choose their own path, make thier own choices. You can let them know you love and support them in what way you're able to, but, that you can only really help them change things, fix whatever problems, if and when they "wake up" and realize that really, it's up to THEM to do somthing to change the situation.  Yes, you can give them a nudge in the right direction in this regards, but really, it's hard to force a grown adult to change their life if they themself are not willing to make the steps to change it.

For now, keep "throwing those life-lines" of support, and hopefully soon they will finally say "Enough is enough, it's time to change this" and reach out, and make the steps to change things.

I know this from dealing with personal experience (though in my case it was with a younger brother who bcame a bad drug addict and also turning to criminal activities to suport his bad habits, and it ended up destroying the family unity, well, what little there was to begin with).  So, I gave as much emotional, spiritual and even financial support to him as I was able to over the years, but, then, I got fed-up of always fixing his problems and cleaning up his messes, and I was just getting myself in a serious depression. So, I got to the point of  feeling almost numb. I thought "I love him, but, I refuse to continue to support a drug-addict who does NOTHING to fix the problem, and is not willing at all to change or even try to change". So, in my case, I chose at that point to use the "tuff love" approach I guess you would call it, meaning, I told them that I love and care about them, but I will no longer stand by and watch, and no longer support them as they continue to destroy their life and also negatively affectly the lives of others around them... and basically, when he came crying to me to fix his problems, unfotunately I cut off my support to him in this way, as I realize, the more I "support" him, the more he thinks he can always rely on someone else to fix his problems for him, and then he will continue to think, "why should I bother to change my life when I'm getting a free ride from others, and someone else will always bail me out and fix my problems for me?"

So, he tried to use various forms of abuse/control/blackmail/lie/cheat/steal/rob  the various familar members and whomever else he could convince to "help him" so he could simply go on to continue with his drug addition and life of crime.

Sometimes a person has to sink real low before they finally "wake up" and come to the realization that they are utimately the one who is making the decisions in their life, they are the ones responsible to make changes in their life IF and WHEN they really want to make a change or to make any kind of attempt to fix various problems in their life.

Anyways, sorry to ramble on here, I guess, basically I'm trying to say, offer to help, show your love for them... but, make it clear to them they it's really up to THEM to do something to make a change in their life IF they really want things to get better, and if and when they realize that, then of course you will do your best to help them.

Best wishes to you all.

[Meowster]

I'm not joking. Pay to have him beaten up badly. Pay to have his arms, legs and teeth broken.

Ozwalled: That wouldn't work because abusive husbands don't like their wives to go out, so she'd just get it twice as bad when she gets back.

The only way is to make a clean break, and since abused women are too retarded to do that themselves, I can see that the break is going to have to be in his legs.

[Czar]

A lot of advices here stay(?), so I wont be repeating them directly.

I want to say that violence is NOT the answer, although it would satisfy the primal and animal part of you. If you have ever been beaten or have beaten someone up, you would know it is not nice, I mean if you have concious(?).

I was afk in the middle of this post, so I think forgot some thoughts, but my primary thought was, maybe you should see a movie with her that is relating to her situation, so she sees the pattern and preferably the movie should have a happy end, or even a comedy (is that possible?). Then maybe she could snap out of or at least use some positive sides of the film...

C.

[Meowster]

To be fair, the only people I have ever heard say 'violence is not the answer' are people that have never been in such a situation.

The pain and misery these people inflict on others is unbelievable, and the worst part?! You can never win an argument with these guys! They'll always win! Even if they go to prison, they'll make themselves believe THEY'RE the victims! So I say, let them think they're the victims while learning to WALK again.

Violence certainly is an answer if it gets him to fuck off. It's certainly going to be bunches more productive than going to see Bridget Jones 2 with her. So maybe you don't have to break his legs, but you could scare the shit out of him and make him think he's going to die.

[InCreator]

Been there, seen that.

Just ask her husband to come over for a tea.... and prepare a baseball bat.
No matter what your sister thinks or says, It's men thing.

[Andail]

Uhm...no.

Those kinds of "solutions" run a 99% risk of failing. If something goes wrong, it will go really wrong, and in the end authorities won't be on your side anymore.
You don't know who the heck she's dealing with, and blunt attempts to scare him away could end up with him taking it out on her in revenge.
Pay somebody to beat him up? That will tie you to criminal circles, and if they get busted, you'll go down with them. If they use excessive violence, it'll be one nasty affair altogether, one that you might not get out of. It could even end up with the crook hiring his own goons, etc etc.

Of course, suggesting that you all go to see a movie (a romantic comedy?) is silly in the opposite way, and highly naive.
Then again, it's darn tricky either way.

[edmundito]

I don't think fighting violence with violence is the answer. Life is not Grand Theft Auto or Counter-Strike, remember?