Abortion: Should she tell her husband?

[Darth Mandarb]

So, if my wife got pregnant, started using drugs and going wacky on me, she could go kill off my unborn child without my say so?  I should have just as much rights to that child as her, unless I was being an unfit husband.

Edit----

Stop and put yourself in that situation, and you would probably change you're mind.

Damn you Squinky ...

Every time I think I have a hold of a situation you go and give me something else to consider.

You make a valid point.  Or what if it was planned, and the husband WANTS the child, and the woman just changes her mind (as woman so often do)?

This is a yucky thing.

[Becky]

You shouldnt be having sex if your not responsible enough firstly to look after the kid,
or use protection.

Protection can and does fail.  Even the most effective forms of birth control do have slim chances of failure.   I don't think that only people who are prepared and in a stable position to have a child should therefore be allowed to have sex.  That's no fun for anyone!

[Squinky]

I love getting it on like anyone else, and I had a kid at 19 because protection does fail.

I didn't want a kid, but I kinda liked living so I figured my kid would too.

Sex is a responsibility. It's sucks, but it's true.

Edit---

And I just want to say that I mean no disrespect to anyone here. I am voicing my opinion, not condemning others.

[Helm]

personally I set my penis on fire every time I have sex and that seems to do the trick as far as protection goes.

[Huw Dawson]

The thing that gets me is this:

1) The father gets no say. Even if the mother was deluded, is convinced she MUST have an abortion, smoked, had one night stands, drinks, and is complete denzin of society, she could go and have an abortion, no questions asked. Even if her husband didn't want her to have an abortion at all.

2) Even AFTER birth, if the woman decided to leave her husband (or vice versa) in the example above, in most cases the woman would get automatic custody of the child. Even if the man was the goodest, greatest man on earth. The court would go "Divorce? Okay lady, sign here for custody."

I hate abortion.

EDIT: Well said Squinky. But not helm.

[Helm]

what? it works.

[Raggit]

As a whole, I agree that telling the father is a good policy, but shouldn't be a must.  I also agree that not just anybody should be able to go and get an abortion because they don't want the kid.  Abortion, in an ordinary pregnancy, is not fair to the child because it has no say.

But, interestingly enough, most people who would say no to an abortion because it denies the child a choice would, after birth, whisk that said child into an operating room to be circumcised.

[Squinky]

But, interestingly enough, most people who would say no to an abortion because it denies the child a choice would, after birth, whisk that said child into an operating room to be circumcised.

Are you comparing that to being aborted?

If so, then I choose getting my junk cut on instead of being aborted...

[Raggit]

Are you comparing that to being aborted? ...

No, I'm not comparing the severity of abortion with the infringement of circumcision.  What I'm saying is that people tend to overlook the idea that infant circumcision is also a violation of a human's right to choose. 

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

So's baptism. We have to draw the line somewhere, I guess. Overlooking abortion is a much bigger deal than overlooking a small cut or a bit of water, though.

[Squinky]

When your a child, you don't really have many rights to choose. Your parents can take away all your stuff, restrict your freedoms, force you to go to church etc...Although, I don't baptize my kids, it's their right to do that, they can choose to do so when they are older.

This is different from taking away your right to live.

[shbaz]

It's her body, but the baby is half mine. Do you see where I'm going with this? Totally wrong for any woman to do that, especially when married. That's the real kicker.. (this is all hypothetical, I'm not married)

I was friends with an older woman who'd had an abortion back in the 70's when it was relatively new. She said it was pretty much advocated and they didn't really tell her about all of the things involved with the process before and after. It was regretted, though make no mistake about it, some people don't regret it.

I think the problem is that we're too obsessed with being supportive of people no matter what. If people want abortions, fine, but we don't need television ads for it and people advocating it. If it were allowed but heavily discouraged I wouldn't be so discontented with it.

Then there's the other argument oft unnoticed, when does life really begin? I certainly don't feel bad for not using my sperm to make babies. When is it OK to take measures to end or stop a pregnancy? The day after? A month after? Many people don't even believe in contraception for moral (not necessarily religious) reasons. In especially early stages, like a week, I definately don't think it's wrong. After that, it gets foggy. Hearts start beating, brains start forming.

[Kinoko]

You guys are using one or two situations to base your decision on. I think any legislation should only be implimented when you think of the absolute, dead hardest situation it could impact. Everyone has been saying, "In a perfect world..." and that is perfectly true. You can't use your examples of happy relationships, children you love, or situations where it has worked out in one way or another as reason to impliment legislation for or against a certain action.

I'm hardly a rebel, but at the moment, it's everyone's choice as to what they do (ie. Tells the man involved or not). If you legislate against that, think of the situation where a woman has gotten pregnant from a one night stand or something. Perhaps she doesn't even know who the guy is. So in those circumstances, how can you deny her abortion if she can't prove she told the man? If you allow exceptions, then any woman can lie about that fact and get the abortion. It's just IMPOSSIBLE to police.

That's the practical side of it. Also imagine a woman who discovers she's pregnant after escaping her abusive husband. Now, in a perfect world, she'd call the police, and they'd discover he was indeed abusive, arrest him and she could be exempt. I'm sure we're all aware this often isn't the case. Sometimes the guy is a respected member of the comminuty. Sometimes, he is the police. Sometimes he'll kill you for telling anyone that he was abusive or the father of an illigitimate child. Something... these are cases right off the top of my head and they're NOTHING compared to circumstances that could really happen.

Some of you need to realise the world isn't as black and white as it may be in your personal circumstances.

As far as saying that people shouldn't have sex if they aren't responsible enough to take care of a child, or prepared to have one... well, I've been doing that for almost a decade. I don't want to live in a world where people don't have sex for fun. I certainly don't want to live in a world where EVERYONE has children. Jesus christ, we'd destroy the Earth FAR quicker than we currently are with that kind of population explosion. Even if you dismiss those arguments... it's just never going to happen anyway. Sex is one of our most basic instincts and you're absolutely blind and living a sheltered life if you think people can be educated enough to decide not to do it unless circumstances are right.

You may think abortions are terrible experiences for everyone involved. 100% true. But life isn't all roses and you can't just legislate against these sorts of things to suit your morality. I used to be a bit of an idealist but I've come to learn there are certain things that, although we can minimilise and should always endeavor to, we will never stop. Killing, rape, incest... I swear that we will never see an end to these things, that's just reality, unfortunately. Of course they should be illegal though, and people punished for doing so. Any sane person would agree those things are bad all the way through. Abortion however... I don't expect to change anyone's opinions on this subject, but at least accept that there are lots of arguments FOR it, and how it can be the "lesser of two evils" (though I hate calling it that), and can stop some people from ruining their lives, and the lives of children too. I really don't expect you to change your opinion, but you should at least accept it's not a black and white situation. There CAN be situations which are arguably bettered because of that.

For that reason alone,  I'm very against legislation of it. Instead of making something like that illegal, possibly ruining many lives (and let's face it, causing backyard jobs and suicides), it's much, much more positive to increase councilling, education and support people in bad situations.

Erm, slightly off topic, but that really is my point of view there. If I got pregnant, abortion would be the first thing on my mind and as nasty as it is to think about it, if I weren't allowed to do so... well, I shudder to think of what I might consider.

I agree that in a good relationship, the man should know. But a woman should not EVER be FORCED to tell him. That's a decision she should be allowed to make. It's a man's baby too but that doesn't carry anywhere near the weight of the argument that ultimately, it's her body. I don't think a man can possibly understand the terror that can come from finding out you're pregnant when you truly don't want to be (or when your situation is really bad). I hope I never have to.

EDIT: Okay, as for the argument that it shouldn't be supported even if it's allowed, that's effectively saying that althought you're allowed to do it, we have to right to shame you and make you feel like shit. In 99% of cases, a woman is already gonna feel like shit and the last thing she needs is people shaking their heads at her. It shouldn't be advertised (you know, "10% off! Why didn't I do this sooner?!"), but by god, if something's allowed, it's allowed. It does no good to anyone to add to someone's bad feelings after such a thing.

I really think just encouraging people to do things well rather than scaring them out of doing it badly is the way to go.

[esper]

Of course, that's only partial birth abortion. However, I saw (of all things...) an episode of Star Trek: TNG today that explains this much better than I could... It was about a planet where every person, upon reaching their sixtieth birthday, had to kill themselves. If killing a baby is convenient, why not kill the elderly? Or your annoying little brother? I read a short story once about a little boy whose mother couldn't take care of him any more, and he was aborted at seven years old. Why is that not acceptable? If things continue along these lines, it eventually will be.

I, like Squinky, don't understand why it's a woman's right to choose. It is most definitely NOT her body, it is the baby's. If she doesn't want to carry the baby to full term, I'm sure there are ways to transplant a fetus, but to "terminate" it is murder.

And I think she should have to tell her husband, but not because I'm an ass. I'm just very unforgiving. If you married him, you made a commitment to him, and by not getting a divorce, you are maintaining that commitment. If you don't want that kind of responsibility, don't get married.

I totally understand Kinoko's "perfect world" argument, as my entire life has been nothing but shades of grey. The last time I made the comment that everyone has a say in how their life goes, I received some criticism. But I have worked with people for a very long time. I have seen people live horrible lives and die alone because they made stupid choices, and I've seen society blame it on everything but choices. For god's sake, it isn't McDonald's fault that people are fat bastards and spill burning hot coffee all over themselves. I remember personally telling a girl about a hundred times exactly why she needed to stay away from the guy she was going out with. Then, I tried explaining to her why she shouldn't marry him. Then, I explained why she shouldn't have a baby with him. Then, I had to tell her it was her own damn fault for having the baby and not to kill it because she had been stupid. Then, I had to explain to her why she needed to leave her husband. Then, I explained to her why she needed to do it NOW.

Ã,  Ã, And then I attended her funeral and the funeral of her three month old daughter.

It's all about choices. If you make bad choices, you have to live with them. If you married a man you are not willing to tell about your abortion, it's your own fault.

[Kinoko]

Sad, sure. For that reason, you're going to agree with the legislation though?

[esper]

No, actually. I don't think the govornment can, could, or should legislate things like that. The govornment can and should, I think, be against abortion, but it has no say in matters that have to do with how a family works. If a woman chooses to be unfaithful to her husband, well, that sucks, and it's wrong: again, she chose to be with him... if she wants to be unfaithful, she needs to just get a divorce. But there is no legislature against it, and I believe that is the way it should be. If a person's choice is not criminal, it needs not be hindered by the govornment.

[2ma2]

Speaking as someone who's actually been in this situation; I was 1) unmarried and 2) young. We had allready discussed the topic whether the situation would occur, and the choice was clear. Abortion.

But for some reason, people think that the pro-choicers have no issues with doing such. Abortion is a horrible thing to go through with, because you can dress it up in all the medical terms you like, but you end your childs life right there. That is what I feel. And it was not because of I didn't want to waste my youth, nor was it her reason. We were in a failing relationship, and issues such as "Can I even care for a child?" seem a bit more important than "I'm to young to pay for child support!". It is the worst thing I have gone through, but if I had a chance to redo it, I'd do the same thing. I see no value in life, only in living. And that goes for the child too. I feel shit for it, but no remorse. Come judgementday, I'll stand by my decision come heaven come hell because this was the RIGHT thing to do.

More on-topic, you may think it's the womans choice because it is the womans body. Fine, no man should force a woman to deliver a child, but he's got a bloody right to know. Sure, ignorance is bliss, and I'd be a lot merrier in joyful lack of knowledge, but I still had a right to know. If you're two in such a mess, you can atleast support eachother. And if a woman fears bringing this matter up to her spouse then what the hell is she doing with him in the first place. Fine, these things can end relationships, but so be fucking it. She shouldn't have to go through it alone.

But this is a question where the law has nothing to do with it. Because a law in such a way, not only makes sure the man knows, but the law knows.

[Kinoko]

I agree with you there. The man should know, but the law should have naught to do with it because of all the grey areas.

[Afflict]

Like squinky said "getting it on" is awesome.

The problem comes in when you are getting it on use protection, but know if it doesnt work whoops!
No not Whoops, take responsibility for that little dude.

RESPECT TO SQUINKY! He did just that

Lets face it birth control, and condoms work hand in hand and you even get female condoms. The chances
are pretty slim of having a "unplanned" baby.

ABORTION SUCKS! I listed my only valid points in my first post. I feel strongly about this, thats like killing
part of your soul!

"HOU JOU DING UIT GATE DAN HOU JY JOU GAT UIT DINGE UIT!" - Afrikaans figure it out...

[Squinky]

Some of you need to realise the world isn't as black and white as it may be in your personal circumstances.

I never said the world is black and white.

As far as saying that people shouldn't have sex if they aren't responsible enough to take care of a child, or prepared to have one... well, I've been doing that for almost a decade. I don't want to live in a world where people don't have sex for fun. I certainly don't want to live in a world where EVERYONE has children. Jesus christ, we'd destroy the Earth FAR quicker than we currently are with that kind of population explosion. Even if you dismiss those arguments... it's just never going to happen anyway. Sex is one of our most basic instincts and you're absolutely blind and living a sheltered life if you think people can be educated enough to decide not to do it unless circumstances are right.

Calling me blind and whatnot  dosen't challenge the logic of my arguement. Anything you do in life has responsibility to it in varying degrees. If you have sex and get pregnant you do have a responsibility for your actions. Just because sex is fun and you don't want to take responsibilty for it doesn't mean anything, just that you don't want to take responsibilty.

I don't think a man can possibly understand the terror that can come from finding out you're pregnant when you truly don't want to be (or when your situation is really bad). I hope I never have to.

I respect that. But imagine the terror of a man who finds out. He now has to pay child support his whole life, here in the U.S you can lose your Drivers license and go to jail if you don't pay. It affects both lives, although the man will not have to carry the child, or suffer the effects of bearing the child.

I really think this issue (the father being involved issue, not abortion, I am not argueing about that can of worms.) can become clearer if you imagine you are a woman about to have a child and your husband can have your child aborted without your permission. Not really possible, but it displays the wrongness of it.

I don't live in a perfect world either, if those comments are addressed to me. I worked in a jail for many years, was second in command actually. I have seen many a sad disgusting bit of humanity, I don't need preached to.