R.I.P. Stanley Williams

[Nacho]

Relax... hey! Make a mental exercise! Imagine the guy was a croatian who killed 4 serbians! I am not trying to upset you or start a flame war, I am just trying to put you in the emotional situation of someone who is seeing a guy who hates in the death row. Would you mind if him does write some books or something? I think no.

And don't reply me saying that I should apply that to me, and imagine me in the death row or something. Ã,  I understand you, and I tryied to put me in your place. I still feel more sympathetic with the position of the relatives of the people who has been murdered, sorry.

For me, seeing the guy who has killed my girfriend, mom, dad and brother, fryed, or receiving a killing dose, should be terrific. I am not saying I agree with the death penalty. I am just saying that, man, if I were in the position of the families, I'd really like to see the guy fryed!

Fortunatelly, I am not, and I hope not to be in that position, never.

Sorry for being like this... But human being is imperfect. (If it was perfect, there shouldn't be bastards killing 4 people in first place...) Ã, 

[RickJ]

Bravo Squinky!

It's my understanding that Willams was the co-author, which means that someone else probably wrote the book and put Williams' name on it for publicity or as a mans of getting published.    Also Williams was the founder of the "Crips" a violent youth gang that continue to comitt murders and other violent crimes.   While in prison Willams maintained relationships with the organization he founded and has never renounced or helped authorities to break-up that organization.   Also while in prison and co-authoring the children's books he planned on killing a number of people to escape.  During this same time in prison, when he was supposedly reformed,  he commited numerous violent crimes including sexual assult of fellow prisioners and physical attacks on guards and prisioners alike.  I say GOOD RIDANCE to Mr. Williams.


P.S. Be nice to Suinky or else he'll F'ya, and as everyone down at the Pirate Guild knows, he has a steel pirate hook on the end of his schlong.    

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

You don't believe in redemption, then?

I never said that.  I said it was hard for people to change their way of life.  Many prisoners have redeemed themselves, i just don't believe this is the case.

[Squinky]

Yes, I believe in redemption. I also believe in Santa Clause and the Care Bears.

This guy didn't light burning poop on my doorstep, and I'm not gonna call and have a talk with his mother. He murdered 4 people, and had a horrible effect on the world in general by starting an infamous gang of criminals.
I may not be able to say my opinion of the death penalty for sure, but this guy "reaped what he sowed"

[MrColossal]

In my opinion it takes extremely severe circumstances for someone to be killed by a government.

Also in my opinion as a moderator, starting a thread with three words and just assuming everyone knows what you're talking about or making them figure it out for themselves isn't correct.

also:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051213/ap_on_re_eu/europe_williams_execution_1

[Darth Mandarb]

I normally stay out of "heated" discussions like this ... but this one pisses me off too much, so I'm throwin' my hat in the ring:

I too believe in redemption ... if you steal a car, or beat somebody up.  This scumbag killed 4 people in cold blood just to prove that he was bad-ass.  He was the founder of a gang that is now responsible for the deaths of thousands.  He ran up that debt, and last night he paid it.

There should be no discussion here, by my way of thinking.  He should have been convicted, taken out behind the court-yard, and had a "short drop with a sudden stop" 25 years ago..  The real sadness here is that he had the time to write books.  He should have died long ago.  Instead we pay for him to live on Death Row and write books.

I don't deny that he might have been a "changed man" and no, I haven't read his books.  That's neither here nor there to me ... he killed 4 innocent people (that we know about) and he should (and did) die for it.

Rest in Peace?  Maybe ... if you can while burning in hell.

[Gregjazz]

In that news article link that was posted earlier it appears as if whether Stanley Williams had murdered those 4 people is still in question...

Here's an interesting fact: In the last four years, 17 death row inmates in the nation were found innocent and freed.

That's partly why I'm against the death penalty. If you are executed, that's it. If you are in prison for life there is still possibility of admonishment.

http://www.abanet.org/irr/hr/deathpen.html

[Nikolas]

Wait a minute here Darth.

Where is the line then. A scumbag that kills one should be killed by the goverment? One who rapes 100 women/children?

You mean to say that death deserves death and that's the end to it. This in Italy (and Greece), is simply called vendetta and the goverment can very well stay out of this. If this is the case, really then let's just take the law in our hands and start killing the killers, thus becoming killers ourselves, who will be killed in return for killing etc...

Who deserves to die?  Except for very very very extreme cases (Hitler, is one), I don't know anyone else who deserves to die. With your thinking there are 1000s of murderers, who deserve to die...

Not to mention education and the educational problem + racism problem everywhere in the world which turns people into gangs! And what about Columbia (for example). There you have to be a murderer in order to stay alive. Should we kill those too?

[Squinky]

That is part of my reasoning for not having a concrete stance on the death penalty. Cases can be overturned because of new technoligy pretty often, in my opinion though (there I said it) most of those people found "innocent" are usaully OJ simpson innocent....

That article (like all the others) is a biased article in my opinion. It is simply not credible to call the murders "Alleged" when the man has been found guilty and had his apeal by the supreme court dismissed. You only get one habeus corpus anyway, so he was screwed unless the terminator spoke up....

[IM NOT TEH SPAM]

Where is the line then. A scumbag that kills one should be killed by the goverment? One who rapes 100 women/children?

It doesn't quite work like that...

First of all, someone who kills another person is not automatically put on death row.  It takes an extremely large crime to get the chair-something this man committed.  He started a gang, and shotgunned four people.  That's pretty damned big, if you ask me.  In trial, the judge decides what punishment this guy deserves.  THEN they're put on death row, and have chance for parole.  It's not just "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth".

[Candle]

You don't believe in redemption, then?

No.. eye for an eye , tooth for a tooth.
Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Hope he burns in hell.

[Nikolas]

I'm sorry:

This post is here just to say that I don't agree to "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", actually no matter what (99.9%, that is).

I think that this is uncivilized and instinct taking over.

[Darth Mandarb]

I have spent hours dwelling on the right and wrong of capital punishment ...

Is the government's killing of Williams really any different than him killing his victims?

Yes it is.  Quite different.

He was put to death, by the government, for crimes he committed.

His victims were put to death because a psychotic thug (who was a piece of shit and didn't deserve to draw breath anyway) decided he would show just how tough he was by killing innocent people.

But he wrote some books!?!?!  He was redeemed!!?!?!

Give me a break.

If you intentionally murder somebody (like Williams did) then you should pay for it with your own life.  If you take the gift of life from somebody else, you don't deserve to have the gift yourself.  He earned his death.  I don't want to hear that there was some question of his quilt/innocence.  If, after 25 years of appeals and bullshit wrangling, they couldn't prove his innocence then I'm convinced of his guilt.

Stanley Williams committed multiple, cold-blooded, murders.

The government carried out justice.

There needs to be SERIOUS penalties for scumbags who commit murder.  If every person knows they can commit murder, spend 20 years in prison, make millions by claiming "redemption" and writing a few books ... I can't even imagine how many more murders there'd be.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

Wow, all this discussion about his books almost makes me want to cry.  I mean, low-profile people that are good writers and haven't killed anyone have a tough time getting published.  What if Ted Bundy had started writing childrens' books and claiming he was reformed?  Would that justify his freedom from 40-100 murders?  Or do numbers matter?  If so, Williams killed more people than Gein did.

One murder is enough to warrant a person losing their right to freedom or life.  Why, you ask?  Because they have irrevocably removed the right of others from experiencing freedom and life.  Justice was served.

[DGMacphee]

You don't believe in redemption, then?

No.. eye for an eye , tooth for a tooth.
Exodus 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Hope he burns in hell.

You do know there's a New Testament where Jesus says "What you do to the least of my brothers, that you do to me." (Matt. 25:40)

Right?

Few things to say about Stanley Williams: he was sent to jail in 1981 and for over a decade was involved in many fights with other prisoners as well as some escape attempts. After he got out of solitary in 1993, we started his anti-violence crusade. So, for a start, it wasn't just an overnight transformatin after his conviction to start writing anti-violence books with the glimmer of a hope they'd release him for becoming a good guy.

He even posted an apology on his website in 1997 that said the following:

Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men. Raymond was murdered in 1979. But if he were here, I believe he would be as troubled as I am by the Crips legacy.

So today I apologize to you all -- the children of America and South Africa -- who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did.

As a contribution to the struggle to end child-on-child brutality and black-on-black brutality, I have written the Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series. My goal is to reach as many young minds as possible to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle.

I am no longer "dys-educated" (disease educated). I am no longer part of the problem. Thanks to the Almighty, I am no longer sleepwalking through life.

I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others.

I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions.

Amani (Peace),

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Surviving Crips Co-Founder, April 13, 1997

Let me ask, has anyone here ever made a mistake? You know, something really stupid that you look back in, say, a year or two and think, "That was fucking stupid... I am really, really sorry."

I know I have.

Forget this eye for an eye bullshit. We can rise above petty vengence.

I don't know much about Williams. I haven't read his books and I only know what I read about him website and in newspapers. I am against the death penalty. I think what Williams did was wrong. But he made a mistake that he admits to. And he tried to make amends.

Hasn't anyone else here made a mistake? Haven't we all tried to make amends at one stage? Is everyone infallible but Williams?

Of course not.

So I think people here should quit their "eye for an eye" petty vengence shit.

Is the government's killing of Williams really any different than him killing his victims?

Yes it is. Quite different.

He was put to death, by the government, for crimes he committed.

His victims were put to death because a psychotic thug (who was a piece of shit and didn't deserve to draw breath anyway) decided he would show just how tough he was by killing innocent people.

But he wrote some books!?!?! He was redeemed!!?!?

Hey do you remember that war in Iraq the US federal government started and haven't quite finished yet but has resulted in several thousand casualties and yet the government has not apologised for starting what several ex-White House staffers call "a mistake"?

Yeah, that war.

My point is this: I wouldn't hold any government up as some infallible entity, especially since governments and politicans rarely apologise for their mistakes.Ã,  At least Willaims apologised for his. I give him credit for that.

[big brother]

A few random thoughts on the matter (since everyone's joining in).

If there is no death penalty, then the American taxpayers bear the burden of keeping every menace alive in prison for the rest of his life. You get what you subsidize.

On a colder angle, tit-for-tat (eye for an eye, as mentioned earlier) is the MOST sucessful long term game theory model. In this case, it both discourages murder (by increasing the risks to outweigh the benefits, acting on the assumption of rationality, like all microeconomics) and prevents the recurrence of the crime from the same person. Like I said, it's cold, but the law has to be based on absolutes, not emotions.

If they ever outlaw the death penalty, I hope they force every murderer to spend the rest of his life working for the families of the people he killed. At least then the families get something firsthand.

[ManicMatt]

I can't keep up here! I'll stop reading a second and type something!

i do also believe that if a person takes another's life, they lose their right to live one themselves.

"Hasn't anyone else here made a mistake? Haven't we all tried to make amends at one stage? Is everyone infallible but Williams?"

yes I have made mistakes... but they didn't involve the death of anyone.

[Kinoko]

He shotgunned 4 people.Ã,  He tried to kill jail guards, and threw chemicals at them.Ã,  He wasn't some kind old guy feeding cornbread to "Mr. Jingles".

I cry my eyes out every time I see the Green Mile. I don't think anyone on this earth should be killed by electrocution. I can't honestly see why it's still done in a modern society. I'm guessing expense...? But how much more expensive can one or two injections be? Anyone have any info on this for me?

I'll be honest, I'm against the death penalty 100% when it suits me. Ã, I find that the kind of people who have hard line, no room for movement stances on it tend to be young people. I know for a fact that the older I get, the more I've seen in the world and the more I realise there are some people for whom it's a better choice. Of course I don't know where to draw the line, and I rather hope that's a debate we never stop having.

I believe it would be perfect if every case could be dealt with very deeply and personally, so that every criminal could become a changed man (or woman). That's just impossible on every level though. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Just to make myself sound like even more of an old fart, I don't place the importance I used to on human life anymore. I mean, in every day situations, sure. But I don't consider it beyond evil to take a human life in every circumstance. Ergo, I think there are times where it's just not a terrible thing.

Some people make the mistake of thinking that just because someone -could- be reformed in a certain amount of time, it doesn't mean they will be.

Of course, I think there should be severe, SEVERE limits on a government sponsered execution. There should be limits on exactly how sure you are of their guilt. I mean, they should have been proven guilty ... but in such a way that there could be no mistaking it under reasonable circumstances. Not everyone "proven" guilty is done so to such a degree. Of course, their crime should be pretty severe too. There's that line we should be debating though.

shitar: As everyone has said before me, you need to think before you start topics and actually tell people what you're talking about. Furthermore, when people actually discuss the topic, don't just swear at them and call them... whatever it was, I can't remember (I appreciate you editting your post though).

EDIT: I just wanted to add that I'm not -for- the death penalty, as my post may have sounded. I'm lucky I live in Australia where it doesn't concern me. To be honest, every case where I hear about it in recent years has angered me a lot and like I said, for the most part, I -am- against it... I just find myself wavering when I see that one special circumstance that makes me believe the criminal shouldn't be left alive anymore.

But yeah, I'm glad I live in Australia (or, will be in another 6 months anyway). We seem to be doing okay for the most part. That said, we don't have the crime that America does so I don't feel I have the right to be preachy in that sense.

[Squinky]

I believe it would be perfect if every case could be dealt with very deeply and personally, so that every criminal could become a changed man (or woman). That's just impossible on every level though. Only a fool would think otherwise.

Just for Information, Here in Idaho (and I think most of america) when a person is found guilty of an offense that can get them prison time, they have to go through what they call a PSI. This involves them talking to a couple therapists, interviews with victims, the defendants family and friends, and reviewing their criminal record. They try to paint a picture of the person so the judge can decide on the appropriate sentence.

Most of the time people get what they call a "Rider" if it is there first felony. This is just going to a boot-camp type place for 180 days. They still have their sentence hanging over their head if they screw up, the judges call it "Retained Jurisdiction" and a lot of times people screw up anyway.....

The way our legal system works here is that they are innocent until guilty, and it is the prosecutions responsibility to prove the case. This isn't easy, I've seen plenty of people who have told me they commited the crime get away just for lack of evidence....But they ussaully came back anyway....

[pcj]

I cry my eyes out every time I see the Green Mile. I don't think anyone on this earth should be killed by electrocution. I can't honestly see why it's still done in a modern society. I'm guessing expense...? But how much more expensive can one or two injections be? Anyone have any info on this for me?

Uh, only Nebraska requires electrocution.  The other 37 states that actively do execute use lethal injections.