Free Will

[Mad-Hatter]

In the General Discussion forum, there are a lot of silly topics, but hopefully no one minds a serious one, as well.


I've noticed a lot of Christians have been claiming things in the Lord's name that I seriously doubt the good Lord had anything to do with.

All due to a little thing called 'free will'. The ability to think for ourselves and choose our own actions.


The best example I can think of is the Youth Group at my church. They went on a missionary trip to Nevada, and came back some few weeks later to tell us all about it in a speech.

They told of how SATAN kicked them out of a park for practising religion in public.

They also spoke of how GOD allowed them to find another church that would help them.

How GOD informed the park director that it was a city park, and they could do whatever they wanted there.

How SATAN still wouldn't let them.


And they ended this speech with, "We knew we were doing the right thing because we were being prosecuted."


Now, while my entire church gives them a standing ovation and a few women behind me are crying because it's apparently some beautiful religious moment, I'm muttering angrily to myself and staying firmly planted in my seat.


I hate to tell them this, but (believe it or not) God isn't responsible for every little good thing, bad thing, mishap, convenience, inconvenience, or event that happens to you in your life.


(my grandmother would kill me if she read that)

[Nikolas]

Heh...

This seems the exact oposite of free will, if you think about it.

You abandon every will to think for yourself, because GOD and SATAN control your lives competely.

How silly... And there were women crying in the back???

I mean, everyone is free to believe anything they want, but frankly when you have SATAN kicking you out of the park, and not the park warden who saw you lighting a fire (for example), or whatever else, then...well... you've got a problem...

anyways... I'm srue this thread will grow into a beautiful debate once again, as we love to do every once in a while. Silyl themes, are good, but once in a while a 20 page of serious debate about nothing really debatable is fun also

[Radiant]

And they ended this speech with, "We knew we were doing the right thing because we were being prosecuted."

Lovely fallacy, that. It allows you to get away with anything because if people disagree with you, you must be right...

I hate to tell them this, but (believe it or not) God isn't responsible for every little good thing, bad thing, mishap, convenience, inconvenience, or event that happens to you in your life.

Very true. God gave people a brain for a reason.

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Ayuh, I've noticed the priests tend to throw everything into the hands of God and/or Satan. Everything that happens good is because of God, everything that happens bad is because of Satan. Sort of, but I've found that's the general gist.

I guess that kinda "comes with the job", as it were, it IS part of the whole religion stuff (I'm an atheist, that's why I talk so lightly about it all), but why can't they try another approach? I listened to this sermon once, where the priest said interesting things about human nature, and it's ability to recover from grief, and be strong, and grow, and so on and so forth, and said it was all because of the Holy Spirit. Then I thought, "Way to go, you've completely devalued one of our most important and fascinating characteristics by saying it's not us that's doing it". But while that thought still seems true, it also seems quite cynical in retrospect, because wrapped around it was a message of warmth, of caring, of comfort, and so on, where "letting the holy spirit inside was to be a better person" - meaning, we wouldn't be better BECAUSE we'd let it in, we'd let it in BECAUSE we'd be better.

I liked that sermon, gave me pause to think. Lumping everything in God/Satan is a blatant excuse for anything that goes right/wrong, and puts the world in an awful black-and-white stance - and religions tend to do this, which I hate.

Anyway, I'll stop here, since I have a bit of a bone to pick with the way religion can be taken to extremes (and my definition of "extreme" is rather wide, Mad-Hatter's example fits into it because it seems the brain just short-circuited there) and this ain't the place to pick that bone.

[Haddas]

Wow. I can't believe there are still people in the world who take religion seriously (in an "advanced" country". I have seen maybe 10 religious people in my entire life. And nine of those were priests

[Rui 'Trovatore' Pires]

Well, it is understandable. Most people need something to believe in. I believe in evolution, me - in all levels. I believe that we learn through wrong actions, that we get better, and so on, and strive to evolve myself into the best person I can be.

Some people are more spiritual. People need their beliefs. I just wish they wouldn't lose track of reality. Those that do, naturally.

[ManicMatt]

"They told of how SATAN kicked them out of a park for practising religion in public."

Are you sure they weren't listening to a grand theft auto game's radio station? And here I was thinking they were far fetched!


How can they so easily define whether something was done by GOD or SATAN anyway? What if say, GOD foresaw that if they stayed on the park one of them was going to slip and break his neck? So he made them stay away. But no, they assume it's SATAN's doing! And how about Euthansia? Mercy of GOD or killing by SATAN?

For the record I'm agnostic. I'm just theorizing or whatnot.

Yup, I too like to think that everything I do is by my own choice. Even when I say "I had no choice." it was a choice, but the alternative may have been very bad indeed.

"Some people are more spiritual."

I am actually I suppose. When my grandma died it was just too hard to accept that she'[s just some ashes now and that's it. It's comforting to think that her soul is in existence.

[Mr Flibble]

I'm more inclined to believe that the things which happen to me over the course of a day are the compound actions of other people, many of whom I will never meet, and not the direct intervention of any god.

I think that whole "act of god/satan" thing is pretty spurious. For example, did anyone in that group consider that the park director wanted to keep what he saw as "a loud group of religious nuts" out of his quiet little park? Maybe he didn't want to disturb the other patrons? Or maybe theres a forgotten rule somewhere saying that people can't preach anything inside the park.

The point is, that doesn't make the park director satan.

Over here, most of the priests I've met don't play the satan angle too heavily. With them, bad things are "tests" and good things are "rewards".

To me, this sort of thinking just seems like a way of relieving people from thought and responsibility.

[Helm]

There is no such thing as free will. We are biological mechanisms. Everything a mechanism does is the result of the influences and initial charges and directives it has. The 'self' is sitting in the passenger's seat, looking at his own cogs, looking outside, looking at his own cogs, looking outside. We influence ourselves in ways that are exactly compensated for. There is no etherial spirit outside and above ourselves dictating the actions of the body according to it's divine ethical choices, made before time.

[Alynn]

Well here's my take, I've been through many different churches, found the Baptist religion, accepted Jesus into my heart, and now I don't really go to church.

I belive God made everything...
I believe God gave us free will...
I believe that God sometimes on very rare occasions intervenes (possibly not even Him Himself but one of his agents... Angels if you will.)
I also believe God put the world on autopilot. The proof is the fact that we have discovered some of His automated systems such as the water cycle, the O-2 cycle and the like.

If God intervened with anyone, its not with that person themself, but with the circumstances around that person, to MAKE anyone do anything invalidates free will. In other words, he won't stop you from drinking and driving, but he may be sure it rains so your car slides down the embankment instead of catching on the dry ground and flipping. Kind of a bad example, but I hope I made my point about that.

BTW, while I am still a believer in God and even Jesus, I don't go to church anymore due to mostly hypocracy. Such as told that an earring on a male, and even tattoos are ungodly as you are desicrating the temple of the Lord... This particular person happened to be a heavy smoker... Since I left the church and went with a whole self made approach to my beliefs, I've found more comfort, and felt more at peace than anytime at church.

Another reason is how SURE people were about something they couldn't prove, to me I know what I feel and I know what I believe, but until I die I won't know for SURE.

[Cluey]

Another thing I don't get it when something happens they claim it is all the divine inevitable plan of God.  Yet they fear the "anti-christ".  Surely if God controls absolutely everything in the world, then they have no reason to fear the "anti-christ" as whatever happens is all part of Gods plan and we might as well sit back and enjoy the ride?

The idea of Hell and Satan having influence over anything removes the idea of omnipotency that so many Christians laud.  If there is a divine plan, free will is bunk.

Peasants can't think for themselves so the Church of old told them.  Religion seems a very conveinient way of keeping the masses seduced.

[Mr Flibble]

I think people today would gain a better spiritual insight if they went to church less and played Grim Fandango more.

EDIT: Why do people always say that they have "accepted" Jesus? Makes them sound as if Big-J is a huge inconvenience on them or something but they're going along with it anyway.

[SSH]

It is inevitable that any given internet forum with a large number of active members at some point will have a debate about free will... therefore, we do not have free will 

[Cluey]

It is inevitable that any given internet forum with a large number of active members at some point will have a debate about free will... therefore, we do not have free will 

Nuts.

[Radiant]

Anyone read Good Omens?

[Phemar]

I assure you that none of you have any free will.

Free will doesn't exist, but I'm too tired to explain it right now ... (Helm is on the right track, but he didn't explain it fully ...)

[Vince Twelve]

I suggest playing my game Anna for the answer to all your questions.

[Helm]

Please, do explain it fully.

[SSH]

I have Free Willy on DVD, which is nearly the same...

[Helm]

You have no sense of humor.