Christianity VS White Magic (Only for Spiritualist/WhiteMagicians & Christians)

Nacho · Tue 26/09/2006 23:17:52

To be honest, the bible is a supperb book of moral (not very original, tough) and a good book of history, but the scientific value of the supernatural facts in it is not better than the evidences regarding the existence of Santa Claus or the aliens...

Helm · Tue 26/09/2006 23:22:44

What good is magic if it's not black magic?! Pentagrams, goats, menstrual blood and semen!

Nacho · Tue 26/09/2006 23:24:47

http://www.snopes.com/

Nice page about urban myths...

Erenan · Tue 26/09/2006 23:30:30

Quote from: SilverWizard_OTF on Tue 26/09/2006 22:50:42
Erenan, there is the huge contradiction that if you try to communicate with a spirit, this isn't happening, how can i say it, to the name of Jesus, because Jesus himself dismisses such actions. So, Jesus doesn't "help" your trial. As a consequence, every supernatural activity that you will do will be with the assistance of dark powers. At least all of these are what Cristianity believes.

But you already said that God allows some supernatural activity, such as in I Samuel 28. And why wouldn't the miracles performed by Jesus' disciples count as supernatural? It seems to me that they are supernatural events done directly in the name of Jesus.

MrColossal · Wed 27/09/2006 00:13:50

Quote from: SilverWizard_OTF on Tue 26/09/2006 21:53:29
MrColossal and Becky, i noticed an anger to your text

Any anger in my text is directed at people who lie and cheat and pretend they have special powers. From Sylvia Brown to Uri Geller [the slightest bit of research about Uri proves he is and has always been a fake, the best one being this link: http://youtube.com/watch?v=lH-6hMEdmfA ] to Peter Popoff to John of God ["psychic healer"] to homeopathic "medicine".

When anyone looks someone in the eye and says "If you put this crystal on your neck it will cure you of cancer." or picks you out of a crowd and says "Jesus has just healed you of your bone spurs." [as Peter Popoff and Pat Robertson do] or "I can speak with the dead, I'm getting a vision of the name John, is there a John in your life?" or anything like that, they should be beaten.

Not only because it's exploiting people's emotions to get money [99.9% of the time] but in many many cases it is killing them.

If there is anything magical or psychic that you're confused or interested in and would like to be directed to places where you can read objectively about what is happening, just PM me and I'll track something down and we'll have a chat about it.

As far as talking with the dead... There's mostly a concept known as cold reading. It's where you walk up to a person and you know nothing about them and start making a series of guesses that are carefully chosen.

For Example:

Two of the most popular names in the US are Michael and John. If someone were to ask me if there is a Michael or a John in my life I'd have to say my brother's name is Michael and my middle name is John. That's two hits in one family. If they asked anyone in my family, my friends or my girlfriend's family, they would know a Michael and a John because of me and my brother. Now all of the sudden they have a hit, they can continue on that. "I see a John..." and then you say "My middle name is John!" and you just told them something they did not know. Now they will direct everything at you and base it around you. If I just stood there passively and said, "And?" they'd have to flounder more and just make guesses. They'd probably say "Maybe a Johnathan or a Jerry or a J... Does a J mean anything to you?" J is the first letter of my girlfriend's name. If there was no John in my life there would be a J for my girlfriend. It's all about slowly breaking it down until you've got a hit and then you just make up a bunch of stuff and make more educated guesses. If I mentioned it was my girlfriend now they know that I am straight, have a girlfriend and her name begins with a J, chances are in my "astonishment" at the reader getting the "J" right I'd say "Her name is Jessica" and bam! There's another thing the pyschic didn't know before. And so on and so forth...

The other thing to remember and notice is that so called psychics will ask many many questions in a short amount of time. Take my "John" example and say my middle name wasn't John but my girlfriend was still Jessica. "I see a John... Or a Johnathan... Jerry... Maybe it's just a J..." That's 3 questions in maybe 3 seconds. I will forget the fact that the psychic asked me 2 questions that didn't mean a thing to me and remember that she said the letter J and I equated that to Jessica. I'm doing all the work for the psychic! They just had to say a letter and I put the peices together! They should be paying me!

So anyway, there you go... That's talking to the dead. Add in some spooky music, dark clothes, a crystal ball and people who WANT to believe that they can talk to the dead and you've got yourself a psychic. If you WANT to believe something [and especially if you're paying money for it, you will believe it because you don't want to feel suckered] you will believe it. Simple as that.

Eric

P.S. I'd love to see a psychic cold read someone fresh off a plane from Japan... "Is there a Yasunobu in your life?" now that would be impressive!

voh · Wed 27/09/2006 00:14:17

Quote from: Helm on Tue 26/09/2006 23:22:44
What good is magic if it's not black magic?! Pentagrams, goats, menstrual blood and semen!

Are you still coming to the monthly sacrificial rite? With the amount of virgins we have, we can certainly find one the Dark Lord will approve of!

Unilin · Wed 27/09/2006 04:44:02

There is no "black magic" or "white magic". There is Divine Magic and Arcane Magic. Divine magic is what clerics and priests use, it is power from God, whatever they call him and whatever god they happen to worship (The native Manitou grants spells too), channeled through the chosen faithful to enact miracles. Healing, protection, creation of food. Even divine fire to smite those who would threaten the cleric or his flock. A particularily devout cleric can even summon the hosts of Heaven to his aid. Angels and Archons and the like, or communicate with the dead spirits or even God himself.

The other sort of magic, Arcane magic, is more natural in origin. It is enacted by gently shifting the patterns, or "weave", of the world to allow things that would not normally be possible to happen. It takes a great deal of study and ritualization and physical sacrifice, though making pacts with various outer powers can reduce these costs. The energy is channeled not from a divine higher power, but rather from the inner elemental planes from which all creation is forged. These planes of pure energy and elements require great control and force of will to manage, but no sort of spiritual devotion or code of holy conduct must be followed.

EagerMind · Wed 27/09/2006 05:02:53

Quote from: SilverWizard_OTF on Tue 26/09/2006 22:15:27... science can offer an explanation, and Christianity doesn't dismiss these.

Like, for example, evolution? :

Vince Twelve · Wed 27/09/2006 05:09:19

Quote from: MrColossal on Wed 27/09/2006 00:13:50
P.S. I'd love to see a psychic cold read someone fresh off a plane from Japan... "Is there a Yasunobu in your life?" now that would be impressive!

Ohmygodohmygodohmygod! One of the 600 students that I teach is named Yasunobu!!! Eric, how do I send you all my money?

MashPotato · Wed 27/09/2006 05:19:17

Quote from: EagerMind on Wed 27/09/2006 05:02:53
Like, for example, evolution? :

Hey, don't dismiss Christianity because some Christians dismiss evolution... I don't want to start an argument on evolution (I think there have been enough threads on that already), but I think it's a popular misconception that evolution and Christianity (or at least all branches of Christianity) must be mutually exclusive beliefs.

As I have posted in an earlier thread, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself:
"The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimension of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers. With Solomon they can say: "It is he who gave me unerring knowledge of what exists, to know the structure of the world and the activity of the elements... for wisdom, the fashioner of all things, taught me""

Sorry for the off-topic...

Krysis · Wed 27/09/2006 05:34:30

There is no magic. It's as simple as that. I don't even want to talk about the jesus.

HillBilly · Wed 27/09/2006 05:36:47

Quote from: Nacho on Tue 26/09/2006 23:17:52To be honest, the bible is a supperb book of moral

Not if you actually care to read the whole thing.

(I'm not suggesting you should)

Helm · Wed 27/09/2006 05:52:56

Quote(or at least all branches of Christianity)

What I really love about branches of christianity is that every one has to think that their god is the real one and everybody else has got it wrong, even they appear to be close. This means that if say, branch X is right, then God starts the second coming and he sees that like, 300,000 people are all the REAL followers he still has on earth and everybody else that claims to love him is going to hell. I am amused by the concept of God high-fiving his 300,000 and sending everybody else to the pit going 'close, but no cigar, lol!' greatly.

esper · Wed 27/09/2006 06:19:21

Who cares what's right or wrong. Let me let you in on a little secret. No one is right. Not a single person in the universe knows the truth about anything, not religionists, spiritualists, or scientists. My advice to you and anyone is this: If you want to be a Christian, study the Bible for yourself, never let a human being tell you what to believe. If you want to be an occultist, select a branch of occult science and study it from whatever ancient grimoires or texts you can find. If you want to be a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Judaicist, a Greco-Roman mythologist, a Pastafarian, or a Hare Krishna, study whatever writings you find truth in and interpret them for yourself. Anyone who bases his or her beliefs on what other people tell them needs to be murdered most brutally.

And if anyone ever tells you you shoud listen to them because they possess the only truth, you should rend them terribly.

Vince Twelve · Wed 27/09/2006 06:25:42

Quote from: esper on Wed 27/09/2006 06:19:21
Anyone who bases his or her beliefs on what other people tell them needs to be murdered most brutally.

You tell people to study the bible, ancient texts, or other religious documents, but they shouldn't base their beliefs on what other people tell them to believe?

Just who do you think wrote those texts?

Erenan · Wed 27/09/2006 06:34:56

@Helm: This is getting kind of off topic, but I feel inclined to point out that what you love about branches of Christianity is clearly not based on much at all within Christian theology. Salvation vs. Condemnation isn't a question of getting all the minute details right in your definition of God, and nobody who counts ever said it was.

@esper: There's a big difference between blindly accepting what you are told and going to a teacher for guidance. If you rejected everything that people before you have learned until you confirm it for yourself, then you'll have a LOOOOOOOOONG road ahead of you, even if you're just specifically looking into religion. There's nothing wrong with being taught, just so long as you use some measure of discretion.

EagerMind · Wed 27/09/2006 06:37:28

Quote from: MashPotato on Wed 27/09/2006 05:19:17Hey, don't dismiss Christianity because some Christians dismiss evolution...

No, I wasn't trying to. Mostly I was being a smart-ass, and I apologize if I offended.

But what I do find dangerous about where SilverWizard is going with this is: his discomfort with the belief in or existence of something he doesn't understand because it might conflict with his religion.

Certainly religion is useful as a means to try and lead a moral and ethical life, but using it as an end in itself is where I get uncomfortable. To use his example, if communication with the dead is possible, then there must be some physical explanation for it, whether we call it "magic" or whatever. But are we going to dismiss it outright as "evil" because of a passage in the bible? Sadly, history (heck, current events) suggest that those who cling blindly to religion will do a lot more than just "dismiss" it.

In some obscure, non-intelligible way, that's what my little quip about evolution was getting at. MashPotato, I appreciate you posting that excerpt, as I wholeheartedly agree with it.

Nikolas · Wed 27/09/2006 06:50:11

I think I'm open minded that certain things might exist. But since I've never seen anything, never had anything, or whatever really (andprobably never will) I don't really care.

While Constantin is fighting angels and devils somewhere in the world, I don't knwo about it, and I don't give a shit! I won't be spending all my time in this world to research on all the occults nad religions to decide which one is true. More over most religions do have more or less the same god with different morals. I tend to like the 1 god religions than the multiple ones

So no Bhudism, or Khrisna and stuff. But moamethanism, orthodox church, protenstant, catholic etc, sound more or less the same in the end. 1 god, (probably the same one), who gives different instructions to different religions.

Well since I already don't follow much apart my own instructions (as taught in an orthodox enviroment of course! Surprise! I don't think that declaring I'm catholic will change anything in my life. I don't care about going to church or even baptising my kids (which I did btw). But I do believe in a higher power, and honour him (<-god is a male, right??? haha) with everything I do (more or less), and also expect him to look the other way when I do something that he doesn't fancy.

I believe what I believe and I act accordingly...

PS. I've asked this before but here goes again. I'm ready to disbelieve any claims in youtube or something, but if esper, or someone else here ,with whom I feel that I know a little better comes and tells me of the supernatural then I'll be able to ask questions and actually believe them.

esper · Wed 27/09/2006 06:56:27

@Vince 12: Basing the argument on the thought that the question was "Christianity" vs. "White Magic." If you want to be a Christian, you have to study the Bible. But when you study the Bible, you can say "Oh, look, there's rather quite a bit of truth here" or "oh, look, this is completely ludicrous and contradictory" rather than "Oh, look, this says what the preacher said it said, so he and it must be right."

If you want to choose a religion, you have to study something. I would prefer people study everything they have available to them and then choose what they believe rather than select one particular "group," "religion," "cult," or "denomination" and then study it exclusively, but that's not what was asked.

Eranan: Albert Einstein would tend to disagree with you, as would many scientists, religionists, and occult masters. The only truth is the truth you find yourself. I know what I believe, and I believe it strongly, because I have proven it to myself. And yes, there is a long road for people who decide such a following. Tibetan monks spend their entire life in search of truth. In the case of belief, would you rather randomly accept something because it seems okay to you, or would you rather know for a fact that what you believe is true? Some people may be lazy in such matters, because those matters don't concern them. However, I would rather devote my life to the study of truth than allow truth to be presented to me and accept it.

Some things are pointless to investigate. For example, in the matter of the world being round... There are the logs of sailors who have circumnavigated the globe, there are the aerial and orbital photographs taken of the planet, there are the jillions of airplane flights that circle the globe daily, and there is the continuous cycle of astronomy and orbital celestial objects that prove the world is round. I believe it's round, although I've never circumnavigated it myself. However, it doesn't matter to me if the world is round or not. It could be conical and full of cream cheese for all I care, as long as life continues properly around me the geometry of the universe doesn't matter to me. To paraphrase what Sherlock Holmes said to Dr. Watson shortly after their initial meeting, "Thanks for letting me know the world is round. I'll try my best to forget it now so I can use the part of my brain it's stored in for things that matter to me."

My ultimate destiny is very important to me, and if I want to dedicate my life to the investigation of the immaterial factors that work into that equation, it is the best thing for me to do. Not everyone feels that way, and that's their prerogative, and I respect that. However, for a searcher such as the originator of this post, such investigation is of the utmost importance. No man has the right to tell me what to believe. I have a close friend that I go to in times when I need guidance, and he comes to me when he needs it as well. But neither of us would ever presume to say "God is an elderly white-haired gentleman who sits on a throne of pure white light and sends you into a pit of burning fire if you don't believe exactly what I'm saying." That is grounds for cannibalization.

Erenan · Wed 27/09/2006 07:13:23

Well, I was writing a response to you, esper, but I realized that I was arguing over minor details rather than what you're actually talking about, so I'm going to stop.